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Thread: Peristromes pics

  1. #25

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    Aaron,

    x Tiveyi should refer to the maxima x veitchii hybrid done by the Veitch nursery in the 19th century. However, it seems that later crosses of maxima x veitchii have been named after the original cross. Accordingly, there are all sorts of variants running around as x Tiveyi, and it would be almost impossible to tell whether it's descended from a cutting of the original cross or a later one. You get generic names like x Hookeriana which is used to refer to any cross of rafflesiana and ampullaria (because it's a natural hybrid).
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

  2. #26

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    Thanks Hamish,
    My opinion exactly. I find it somewhat questionable to name remakes after the old Victorian originals. I know it's been done, but at least the breeder qualified the grex as a remake: ie. N. dicksoniana (Australia). This is a remake of the old Victorian hybrid of rafflesiana x veitchii...made in Australia. The Mansell's also have made this cross, but simply refer to it as (rafflesiana 'Kondo' x veitchii 'lowland'). This certainly differentiates their remakes from the old originals. I take a similar position on the N. Allardii question. By naming the grex N. Allardii, the breeder certainly seperates those plants from all other max x veitchii. These crosses were made a long time ago, and to avoid confusion, I see them as "grandfathered in". The same for the Japanese hybrids. Anyone hybridizing Nepenthes today should be using the cultivar naming methods described by the ICPS on their website. In quick summary: the hybrid bears the cross parentage, female clone named first. If the there are superior clones that stand out from the rest of the grex, then give them cultivar names-not a pseudo-scientific name- and write up a description for publication(or have someone else do it).

    Also, thanks for the info on the mericloning. If you find out more, let us know.

    Trent

  3. #27

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    Very nice pics Bill!! Thanks for posting them. Nive highland vietchii.

    Your Tiveyi, or max x vietch, or whatever they want to call it looks exactly like mine.
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/rlhirst/neps/nt.jpg[/img]

    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/rlhirst/neps/maximavietchiismall.jpg[/img]

    I guess it's better to have it and not know what to call it, than the opposite. hehehe [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]

    Do you grow it as a highland or lowland?
    Thanks,
    Robin

  4. #28

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    Robin,
    It's totally outrageous!!! I think it should be called N. Tiveyii 'R. L. Hirst', or simply, Nepenthes 'R. L. Hirst': it deserves cultivar status.
    Right now, Michelle and I are in the process of writing articles describing new Nepenthes cultivars. Be in touch.

    Trent

  5. #29

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    Aaron,
    Thanks for finding out about the mericloning (I mentioned this in my comments to SydneyNeps). True mericlones such as from the Allardii would come from the apical meristem(growth point) of the plant rather than from a seed. This is how an established cultivar can be mass produced. I know this has been done, but only just recently, and the exact specifics are proprietary info.

    Trent

  6. #30

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    Just to add to the confusion...
    Trying to find out more info on this plant,and after hearing the description of N allardii, I found this pic http://www.triffidpark.com.au/htm_pag....ap1.jpg of N Allardii from triffid park.
    Then I dug up this old pic of my plant when it was young...I'll let you decide, but I'm convinced this is the plant I am growing. Sorry about the confusion.
    My apologies to everyone I traded cuttings with, and you to Gus [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]
    You now have N. Allardii. ( I think )
    Robin[img]http://home.**********.com/users/rlhirst/neps/PIC1.jpg[/img]

  7. #31

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    rlhirst,

    How about I add even more confusion for you!?

    That picture by Triffid park, is quite removed from what most of the N. 'Allardii' they offer look like. This could be due to age, form (since there are varying forms) or growing conditions.

    TP say they have 2 different forms of the Allardii. Both have striped peristomes but with varying colours. They were even more surprised when I told them that my TP Allardia had no visible stripes on the peristome at all and was nowhere near as red in colour overall (I keep mine in high natural light equal to or greater than what TP keep them in).

    Even when looking at 100ís of them during my visit last week I could see quite a large range of variations in pitcher appearance.

    Now, I think this is explained in part by the mericloning. If I understand it correctly there must be some donor, or parent plants, here. I then assuming they must vary slightly which gives us the variation in the Allardi clones that TP then on-sell.

    The thing I guess is near on impossible to find out is where the donor/parent plants came from to start with. I was given a lead to someone that supposedly introduced the first seed here in Aus. but I was unable to get a response about that.

    I'd say Hamish pretty much summed it up, in that unless the plant is descendant from the original hybrid then it is not ACTUALLY Allardii or Tiveyii but simply a very closely parented from.

    Aaron.

  8. #32
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    Here is what the ICPS database has to say:

    N: ~[Nepenthes allardii {Hort.Lynch ex Bonst.}]
    P: Parey Blumeng.1.ed.1:664 (1931)
    S: =[[Nepenthes veitchii {Hook.f.}] * [Nepenthes maxima {Reinw. ex Nees}]]
    C: later synonym of [Nepenthes tiveyi {Hort.Veitch ex Mast.}]
    GR: Tiveyi Group {Fleming}
    GRP: Carniv.Pl.Newslett.8:10 (1979)
    B: Allard, 1897

    N: [Nepenthes tiveyi {Hort.Veitch ex Mast.}]
    P: Gard.Chron.3.ser.22:201 (1897)
    S: =[[Nepenthes maxima {Reinw. ex Nees}] * [Nepenthes veitchii {Hook.f.}]]
    GR: Tiveyi Group {Fleming}
    GRP: Carniv.Pl.Newslett.8:12 (1979)
    B: G.Tivey, Chelsea, 1897

    N: ~[Nepenthes wittei {auct. non Elm.: Y.Fukatsu}]
    P: List of Nepenthes Hybr.:7 (1999)
    S: =[[Nepenthes maxima {Reinw. ex Nees}] * [Nepenthes veitchii {Hook.f.}]]
    C: later synonym of [Nepenthes tiveyi {Hort.Veitch ex Mast.}]


    The problem is that offspring produced from seed (sexual reproduction) can look quite different, depending on both the genetics of each parent and that of the resulting siblings. All of the plants resulting from crossing maxima x veitchii (or veitchii x maxima) can be called N. x tiveyi (vice N. x allardii). So it is not surprising that these plants having the same hybrid name appear different. Only when a particular plant is cloned, then each individual would have the same appearance if grown under identical conditions, but they may look different when grown under different conditions.

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