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Possible fungus?
Aaron,
OK, then no chemicals, so suppose it has to be a fungus. Tony is right of course about chemical burns not spreading. Would take a lot of chemical to do that, not just spray drift from outside.
Thiophanate methyl has worked very well here for all types of leaf spot. Stops it dead in it's tracks if applied correctly. Deformation of the next pitcher is possible with some species, tiny lids etc.
Good luck!
OK, then no chemicals, so suppose it has to be a fungus. Tony is right of course about chemical burns not spreading. Would take a lot of chemical to do that, not just spray drift from outside.
Thiophanate methyl has worked very well here for all types of leaf spot. Stops it dead in it's tracks if applied correctly. Deformation of the next pitcher is possible with some species, tiny lids etc.
Good luck!
Now Rob...
You should know that you cannot make a statement like...
...without elaborating further!
From the load of web searching I did today this may be along the lines you are suggesting:
- Needs to be applied to all surfaces of the effected plant.
- Apply about 2x per year. More often may increase the chance of the fungus becoming immune. Less often may enable the fungus to get a foothold and cause more damage.
- Avoid getting it on live LFS if at all possible
There were also a few suggestions of trialling the fungicide on expendable plants first. But this does not make much sense, as if the fungus is not treated, the plant is likely to either succumb or be weakened and look terrible anyway!?
Hamish mentioned to me that the Zyban may cause some deformities initially, but I'd happily tolerate that if it means getting rid of this supposed fungus.
Aaron.
You should know that you cannot make a statement like...
[b said:
...without elaborating further!
From the load of web searching I did today this may be along the lines you are suggesting:
- Needs to be applied to all surfaces of the effected plant.
- Apply about 2x per year. More often may increase the chance of the fungus becoming immune. Less often may enable the fungus to get a foothold and cause more damage.
- Avoid getting it on live LFS if at all possible
There were also a few suggestions of trialling the fungicide on expendable plants first. But this does not make much sense, as if the fungus is not treated, the plant is likely to either succumb or be weakened and look terrible anyway!?
Hamish mentioned to me that the Zyban may cause some deformities initially, but I'd happily tolerate that if it means getting rid of this supposed fungus.
Aaron.
Ooh! Ah! Now we're in dangerous territory - what works for us may not be good for you. The leaf spot I have seen in the past was caused primarily by a Cercospora sp. and the effects of the pathogen were rather different to that shown in your photos, smaller spots and raised blisters underneath the leaves of some species. Other species had no symptoms at all but were probably infected also.
We used a locally available thophanate methyl called "Topsin" which contains no other fungicide; I don't know what Zyban is without researching it. Suggest you first read the directions for ornamentals on the label when you get it but here's what worked for us:
Drenching (really soaking but avoiding getting too much in pitchers) with a watering can 3 times at 10-14 days intervals on afflicted plants (in our case we did all the nurseries after trials to be on the safe side). Thereafter a monthly spray as a preventative. Now this is in a nursery where we are surrounded by farming territory which is a potential source for disease and there are many plants in the nurseries. I don't think such a regular preventative spray will be necessary for a small collection, although I would recommend treating any new plants you are adding to the collection since some of these fungi are very common in cultivated Nepenthes and quite infectious.
This info comes with a warning - you may see damage in developing pitchers - or worse. It's not possible to be sure and trials take a long time to show results. Our plants rewarded us with a huge growth spurt on the next leaf, even on plants that had no overt symptoms but we water heavily from above every morning so the chemical didn't hang around on the leaf surfaces for more than a night.
Hamish has warned of the risk of resistant strains of fungi appearing if this chemical is used too often but you can probably worry about that later. Looks to me like first aid is the order of the day.
Hope this helps. If it ends in tears, I never made this posting!
We used a locally available thophanate methyl called "Topsin" which contains no other fungicide; I don't know what Zyban is without researching it. Suggest you first read the directions for ornamentals on the label when you get it but here's what worked for us:
Drenching (really soaking but avoiding getting too much in pitchers) with a watering can 3 times at 10-14 days intervals on afflicted plants (in our case we did all the nurseries after trials to be on the safe side). Thereafter a monthly spray as a preventative. Now this is in a nursery where we are surrounded by farming territory which is a potential source for disease and there are many plants in the nurseries. I don't think such a regular preventative spray will be necessary for a small collection, although I would recommend treating any new plants you are adding to the collection since some of these fungi are very common in cultivated Nepenthes and quite infectious.
This info comes with a warning - you may see damage in developing pitchers - or worse. It's not possible to be sure and trials take a long time to show results. Our plants rewarded us with a huge growth spurt on the next leaf, even on plants that had no overt symptoms but we water heavily from above every morning so the chemical didn't hang around on the leaf surfaces for more than a night.
Hamish has warned of the risk of resistant strains of fungi appearing if this chemical is used too often but you can probably worry about that later. Looks to me like first aid is the order of the day.
Hope this helps. If it ends in tears, I never made this posting!
Hi guys,
Thanks for the great/informative posts on this subject! So now I have my 3lbs. of Zyban here. Should be enough to kill the fungus, and stop me smoking...
I am wondering what concentration to use. So for those of you that use Zyban on your neps ( Hamish, Aaron) , can you please tell me what concentration to use? Do you suggest Rob's application technique with this product, or perhaps a different one?
Of course I release you from any liability in the matter.
Thanks in advance,
Robin
Thanks for the great/informative posts on this subject! So now I have my 3lbs. of Zyban here. Should be enough to kill the fungus, and stop me smoking...
I am wondering what concentration to use. So for those of you that use Zyban on your neps ( Hamish, Aaron) , can you please tell me what concentration to use? Do you suggest Rob's application technique with this product, or perhaps a different one?
Of course I release you from any liability in the matter.
Thanks in advance,
Robin
Well in the absence of responses, I decided to KISS. So I followed the mixing instructions on the bag and applied liberally to all my neps, trying to keep it off the developing pitchers. I did not get too much into the soil. Fortunately my plants did not vaporize before my very eye's, so I think I did it right.
Hi Tony and Rob,
Do symptoms such as this occur in temperatures that are too cold? My suggestion was possibly it was having an adverse affect on species and hybrids that is a lowland or is part of a lowland that would much prefer a warmer climate. 20 degrees would probably be too cold for these plants and 25 degrees would be much safer.
In addition to using a systemic fungicide such as fongarid, I believe it is safe to assume that it will not cure the spots that have developed on existing leaves, but will protect the new growth from become infected. Hence, chop off the infected leaves and burn them once the new growth has developed enough.
C
Do symptoms such as this occur in temperatures that are too cold? My suggestion was possibly it was having an adverse affect on species and hybrids that is a lowland or is part of a lowland that would much prefer a warmer climate. 20 degrees would probably be too cold for these plants and 25 degrees would be much safer.
In addition to using a systemic fungicide such as fongarid, I believe it is safe to assume that it will not cure the spots that have developed on existing leaves, but will protect the new growth from become infected. Hence, chop off the infected leaves and burn them once the new growth has developed enough.
C
Yes, symptoms like those can occur when conditions are too cold but I believe that the damage usually starts at the leaf margin and works its way in. Others will know far more about that than me as we rearely have cold nights here!
Systemic funcicide or any other chemical won't cure the existing damaged areas they are already dead or dying but will hopefully prevent it spreading if the chemical is effective.
Systemic funcicide or any other chemical won't cure the existing damaged areas they are already dead or dying but will hopefully prevent it spreading if the chemical is effective.
Just to lead on from Christian's questions....
Assume that it is colder temps that are causing or contributing to the appearance of the pathogen and subsequent leaf damage. IF the temps were low enough to have caused the plant to weaken to a degree that allowed the pathogen to cause this damage, wouldn't you expect to see other sings of the plant not responding well to the lower temps such as: slow or no growth, poor pitcher development, etc?
In my particular case and at this stage I'm not attributing low temps to the issue, as this pathogen does appear about equally on both LL and HL plants.
LL - N. truncata x vent and Merriliana
HL - N. sanguinea and N. fusca
Aaron.
Assume that it is colder temps that are causing or contributing to the appearance of the pathogen and subsequent leaf damage. IF the temps were low enough to have caused the plant to weaken to a degree that allowed the pathogen to cause this damage, wouldn't you expect to see other sings of the plant not responding well to the lower temps such as: slow or no growth, poor pitcher development, etc?
In my particular case and at this stage I'm not attributing low temps to the issue, as this pathogen does appear about equally on both LL and HL plants.
LL - N. truncata x vent and Merriliana
HL - N. sanguinea and N. fusca
Aaron.
If it were indeed cold temperatures as you mention, you might see other growth symptoms if it were a prolonged situation. However pathogens can cause infection in the short term so a single or temporary situation long enough for infection but not long enough to cause long term growth problems could also be the case. Personally I think pathogens are generally more of an issue during situations of too warm conditions.
What do those leaves look like now Aaron? Have the spots continued to get larger before and/or after applying fungicide?
Tony
What do those leaves look like now Aaron? Have the spots continued to get larger before and/or after applying fungicide?
Tony
Hi,
I've done some research into this, however sometimes, I have discovered that even from photos it is difficult to depict what exactly could be affecting the plant. From alot of the information I have discovered this could be a one of a number of fungus. Many sites only offer descriptions also and often the symptoms sound similar. Simply, it could be leaf spot, rust spot, etc...
I would suggest using s fungicide such as Mancozeb. I have found that the risk of the strain becoming resistant is low. Furthermore the active constituent is 'ethylene dithiocarbamate'. And is multi site active. This is a broad spectrum fungicide and I believe has the same effect as that of trading as Cleary's 3336 (aka Zyban). The fungicide attacks the SH proteins in the fungus and is effective on contact on the area infected. You would use Cleary's if you have a major infestation, other than that stick with something a bit lighter as to not have adverse effects to your plant. The fongarid won't do the job as Tony mentioned it will only be effective agains damp off, pythium and phytopthora root rots.
You may experience slowing down in growth for a week while the plant battles to return to a healthy state. After that it will be much happier.
C
I've done some research into this, however sometimes, I have discovered that even from photos it is difficult to depict what exactly could be affecting the plant. From alot of the information I have discovered this could be a one of a number of fungus. Many sites only offer descriptions also and often the symptoms sound similar. Simply, it could be leaf spot, rust spot, etc...
I would suggest using s fungicide such as Mancozeb. I have found that the risk of the strain becoming resistant is low. Furthermore the active constituent is 'ethylene dithiocarbamate'. And is multi site active. This is a broad spectrum fungicide and I believe has the same effect as that of trading as Cleary's 3336 (aka Zyban). The fungicide attacks the SH proteins in the fungus and is effective on contact on the area infected. You would use Cleary's if you have a major infestation, other than that stick with something a bit lighter as to not have adverse effects to your plant. The fongarid won't do the job as Tony mentioned it will only be effective agains damp off, pythium and phytopthora root rots.
You may experience slowing down in growth for a week while the plant battles to return to a healthy state. After that it will be much happier.
C
@ Tony,
All are about the same other than the worst effected, which is the N. trubcata x ventricosa. On this particular plant the spots ‘appear’ to have increased in size very slightly and the plant tissue in the middle of the larger spots is starting to die off. So overall whatever this pathogen is it is not fast moving at this point.
Although I would have liked to try treating this the week I rased it here, unfortunately I'm not having much luck getting one of the preferred fungicides right now. Add to this the multitude of varying recommendations I’m getting from different people (very confusing) and the issues with avavilability here ins Aus. and I am still no closer to finding what I want.
I did try some of the Fongarid on the N. tuncata x ventricosa and the small N. sanguinea simply because I had it. But as already noted, I am an not expecting it to do much.
@ Christian,
Now, you see this is where I’m getting confused. My take was that the general consensus was to try a systemic fungicide that contained thiophanate-methyl, given it’s broad spectrum ability and, in the majority of cases, little/no side effects on Neps.
You’ve thrown in yet another – “Mancozeb” which has a different main ingredient. From what I can see it is recommended for use with “ornamentals” (as most of the other recommended fungicides) so I’m assuming it’s safe? I can’t remember if you mentioned it on the weekend but have you actually used it with any success and specifically what did you try to treat with it?
By the way, the active ingredient (or one of) in Cleary’s 336 (and Topsin and Zyban) is thiophanate-methyl. I can’t find any reference to any of them having this
Dithiocarbamate that is in the mancozeb.
I’ve also not been able find any comment about Mancozeb being systemic. Though I did find an interesting reference on fungicide uptake stating that most that are claimed to be systemic actually are not and they should be termed ‘penetrates’:
Fungicides: Plant Uptake and Mode of Action
What I have found is that Zyban also has Mancozeb in it. So at this stage Zyban is still at the top of my list having both the mancozeb and thiophanate-methyl.
I did have Banrot as my #2 due to having thiophnate-methyl (and etridiazole). But… what I find odd is that Zyban is recommended for a range of leaf related pathogens where as Banrot for root and soil related pathogens
Why would that be given they both have thiophanate-methyl as the main ingredient?
Man! My head is spinning…
Aaron.
All are about the same other than the worst effected, which is the N. trubcata x ventricosa. On this particular plant the spots ‘appear’ to have increased in size very slightly and the plant tissue in the middle of the larger spots is starting to die off. So overall whatever this pathogen is it is not fast moving at this point.
Although I would have liked to try treating this the week I rased it here, unfortunately I'm not having much luck getting one of the preferred fungicides right now. Add to this the multitude of varying recommendations I’m getting from different people (very confusing) and the issues with avavilability here ins Aus. and I am still no closer to finding what I want.
I did try some of the Fongarid on the N. tuncata x ventricosa and the small N. sanguinea simply because I had it. But as already noted, I am an not expecting it to do much.
@ Christian,
Now, you see this is where I’m getting confused. My take was that the general consensus was to try a systemic fungicide that contained thiophanate-methyl, given it’s broad spectrum ability and, in the majority of cases, little/no side effects on Neps.
You’ve thrown in yet another – “Mancozeb” which has a different main ingredient. From what I can see it is recommended for use with “ornamentals” (as most of the other recommended fungicides) so I’m assuming it’s safe? I can’t remember if you mentioned it on the weekend but have you actually used it with any success and specifically what did you try to treat with it?
By the way, the active ingredient (or one of) in Cleary’s 336 (and Topsin and Zyban) is thiophanate-methyl. I can’t find any reference to any of them having this
Dithiocarbamate that is in the mancozeb.
I’ve also not been able find any comment about Mancozeb being systemic. Though I did find an interesting reference on fungicide uptake stating that most that are claimed to be systemic actually are not and they should be termed ‘penetrates’:
[b said:
Fungicides: Plant Uptake and Mode of Action
What I have found is that Zyban also has Mancozeb in it. So at this stage Zyban is still at the top of my list having both the mancozeb and thiophanate-methyl.
I did have Banrot as my #2 due to having thiophnate-methyl (and etridiazole). But… what I find odd is that Zyban is recommended for a range of leaf related pathogens where as Banrot for root and soil related pathogens
Why would that be given they both have thiophanate-methyl as the main ingredient?Man! My head is spinning…
Aaron.
Aaron,
Here's a link to some zyban.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rosecare1/pez03.html
(Hope its OK to post this link. If not delete at will)
Hope that helps.
Robin
Here's a link to some zyban.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rosecare1/pez03.html
(Hope its OK to post this link. If not delete at will)
Hope that helps.
Robin
Aaron,
Can sure understand your confusion.
Thiphanate ethyl (or methyl) is a very effective fungicide. However, as Gus says, same as with antibiotics in humans, regular use will give rise to resistant strains. For this reason, most professional nurseries will alternate between diffferent fungicides. Fungicides sometimes contain several ingredients which may increase the spectrum of activity and reduce the chances of resistant strains emerging.
However, some Nepenthes are prone to damage by some fungicides. Particularly pitcher peristomes and lids, so one has to be careful.
Specifically, thiphanate methyl (or ethyl) is widely accepted to be very useful on Nepenthes. We have only seen superficial pithcher damage when using high doses and then only rarely. We have applied it at 10x recommmended dosage in trials with no problems observed in that particular trial athough we've found it best not to get it on or into pitchers.
Mancozeb is something we are trialling intensively right now and would be very interested to hear from anyone who has found any evidence of phytotoxicity with Nepenthes. It's labeled for ornamentals but that doesn't always mean it's OK with our particular babies, especially when used long-term.
We have used Aliette many times in the past as a drench and found no problems with the plants.
Some fungicide can have truly horrible effects on Nepenthes. We once did a trial with a fungicide called Daconyl on a batch of 20 lowland plants. Recommended only if you want to bonzai your plants!
Can sure understand your confusion.
Thiphanate ethyl (or methyl) is a very effective fungicide. However, as Gus says, same as with antibiotics in humans, regular use will give rise to resistant strains. For this reason, most professional nurseries will alternate between diffferent fungicides. Fungicides sometimes contain several ingredients which may increase the spectrum of activity and reduce the chances of resistant strains emerging.
However, some Nepenthes are prone to damage by some fungicides. Particularly pitcher peristomes and lids, so one has to be careful.
Specifically, thiphanate methyl (or ethyl) is widely accepted to be very useful on Nepenthes. We have only seen superficial pithcher damage when using high doses and then only rarely. We have applied it at 10x recommmended dosage in trials with no problems observed in that particular trial athough we've found it best not to get it on or into pitchers.
Mancozeb is something we are trialling intensively right now and would be very interested to hear from anyone who has found any evidence of phytotoxicity with Nepenthes. It's labeled for ornamentals but that doesn't always mean it's OK with our particular babies, especially when used long-term.
We have used Aliette many times in the past as a drench and found no problems with the plants.
Some fungicide can have truly horrible effects on Nepenthes. We once did a trial with a fungicide called Daconyl on a batch of 20 lowland plants. Recommended only if you want to bonzai your plants!
