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Thread: Awesome hibrid idea!

  1. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (SydneyNeps @ Nov. 05 2004,4:31)]Whilst hybridisation does occur in the wild, they don't seem to form dominant populations, or succeed overall. Anecdotal evidence in the field would indicate that complex hybrids are rarely, if ever, seen in the wild, and that hybrids don't interbreed well with the parent species. Hybrids do appear, but the parent species win out overall.
    Anecdotal evidence indeed but there's a lot of it. I've seen several complex hybrids in the wild but they are very rare in my experience. However, out of 24 clones from N. bicalcarata seed we kept in the lab we had the following appear:

    9 clones of "typical" orange N. bicalcarata
    2 clones of a red N. bicalcarata
    1 clone of a squat red N. bicalcarata with unuasually short fangs, not an F1 hybrid IMO.
    5 clones of N. bicalcarata x (N. gracilis x ampullaria) - nice!
    6 clones of N. bicalcarata x gracilis
    1 clone of N. bicalcarata x ampullaria

    Seed was from a collection of just part of a single head. The balance seeds that was planted out in the nursery also yielded some really strange plants that are evidently complex hybrids probably involving N. mirabilis var. echinostoma and N. ampullaria. I've never seen most of these varieties in the wild despite living amongst these plants in habitat for a decade.

    These F1 and complex N. bicalcarata hybrids we have are *very* vigorous in the nursery but rare in the wild? Why should that be? My guess is that the pitcher form, coloration or nectar gland distribution just isn't attractive enough to insects to enable them to compete in the hostile environment they naturally occur in.
    Rob Cantley
    Nep Nut in Sri Lanka
    http://www.borneoexotics.com

  2. #18

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    Rob, that's exactly the same observation made by other propagators of wild seed - whilst hybrids don't seem common in the wild, they are very common in cultivated seed. That would seem to indicate that, as you mention, competitive pressure in the wild sees them fail. Put them in a lab with all the support and protection they could possibly get, and hey presto. I'd say your surmise about not being able to effective attract prey is spot on. There is evidence that different Nepenthes species attract different insect species (which seems logical, as you'd find a niche which doesn't compete with another species). So if you cross a termite feeder with an ant feeder, then you may get a species that attracts neither sufficiently.

    Your example also shows that female Neps are big trollops when it comes from taking any old pollen! But there must be strong factors involved in species dominance - in some areas where you find bical, amps, gracilis, mirabilis etc in a very confined area, if hybrids were such an evolutionary winner, then the species would soon interbreed themselves out of existence. As they tend to survive despite constant interbreeding, it shows the hybrids rarely come to the fore.

    Also, the speciation that can be seen occurring in a single progenitor species location like in Australia would seem to be evidence of speciation occurring from mutations within populations, rather than genetic influences from without.

    I must say I'm enjoying thread, it's the first intelligent discussion that has arisen for quite a while and the views have been cogent and stimulating

    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

  3. #19

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    Hi all;

    Let's go back to the main point of the discussion. The fact that one sees more hybrids in TC than they occurred in the wild, my guess is that it has been discussed in a thread a couple of weeks ago. Competitive environment occurs in the wild while a TC flask is a free for all to grow. It is very clear from Rob's bicalcarata clones that the female bicalcarata flower takes up a lot of pollen and from different sources. Why only few of these grow in the wild while, all of them grow in TC?. Of course environmental selective pressure would allow only those that adapt to the environment very quickly as opposed to those which they'd have a hard time to grow and develop in such a competitive environment.

    those hybrids which don't normally make it to the stage of plantlets will perish, but they will be made again next year and the next until these find a way to overcome the obstacles and become dominant. When and how?, well it'd depend on the environmental circumstances while germinating.

    Regarding the species found in Australia: Mirabilis and Mirabilis var rowanae or N. rowanae as some growers call it, still is debatable. I was originally convinced that N. rowanae was a true species, but the fact that there is a N. Viking from Thailand with similar if not almost identical characteristics of Rowanae around and some of its variants just as it occurs with Rowanane would make anybody think twice about these being in fact new species rather than two mirabilis hybrids!

    Rowanae and Viking could just be complex hybrids that are evolving to species. Now to make things more interesting, i would like to bring up the fact that the description of species

    a group of organisms that have a unique set of characteristics (like body shape and behavior) that distinguishes them from other organisms. If they reproduce, individuals within the same species can produce fertile offspring.

    Individuals from different species can't interbreed. Then why this happens with Nepenthes. Are we dealing with species or subspecies? Maybe they all belong to one Genus Nepenthes and one species. Actually two or three since nobody has been able to hybridize N. pervillei and N. viellardii.

    Gus

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    Hi there,

    this is a really interesting discussion!!

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]It is a real shame that genetic analysis are not readily available for the identification of neps.
    With this genetic analysis identification would be very easy. But that's almost impossible. You have to know all the DNA of all neps. (How many chromosoms does Nepenthes have?) Its the point that nepenthes have dominant and recessive alleles. So e.g. veitchii has a dominant allele in the large peristome and a hybrid of veitchii and jaquelinae perhaps would be unspectacular because the dominant alleles of both would be canceled. With this fact identification of neps would be easy if you know all dominant or recessive alleles.

  5. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (agustinfranco @ Nov. 06 2004,2:39)]Individuals from different species can't interbreed. Then why this happens with Nepenthes. Are we dealing with species or subspecies? Maybe they all belong to one Genus Nepenthes and one species. Actually two or three since nobody has been able to hybridize N. pervillei and N. viellardii.
    You lost me on that one Gus. I can't find anywhere in the deffinition of species that says this. The deffinition as I know it simply states "(biology) taxonomic group whose members can interbreed." This doesn't imply that different species can't interbreed.

    So by this deffinition N. pervillei and viellardii fit the Nepenthes genus as their flower structure, plant structure, growth habits, morphology etc fall within the confines of the rest of the members in the genus. Also by this deffinition you could theoretically group all the Nepenthes that can interbreed into a single species with perhaps subspecies designations. The point is that in the end when I say N. macrophylla or N. edwardsiana subsp. macrophylla you instantly know exactly what plant I am talking about. This is what the taxonimists goals are. How they break up the big conglomerate of Nepenthes into smaller bits so we can all communicate with each other is always open to debate.

    Tony

    PS.. I would like someone to make me a N. edwardsiana x hamata pls [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_n_32.gif[/img]
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  6. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (agustinfranco @ Nov. 06 2004,1:39)]Hi all;

    Let's go back to the main point of the discussion. The fact that one sees more hybrids in TC than they occurred in the wild, my guess is that it has been discussed in a thread a couple of weeks ago. Competitive environment occurs in the wild while a TC flask is a free for all to grow. It is very clear from Rob's bicalcarata clones that the female bicalcarata flower takes up a lot of pollen and from different sources. Why only few of these grow in the wild while, all of them grow in TC?. Of course environmental selective pressure would allow only those that adapt to the environment very quickly as opposed to those which they'd have a hard time to grow and develop in such a competitive environment.

    those hybrids which don't normally make it to the stage of plantlets will perish, but they will be made again next year and the next until these find a way to overcome the obstacles and become dominant. When and how?, well it'd depend on the environmental circumstances while germinating.

    Regarding the species found in Australia: Mirabilis and Mirabilis var rowanae or N. rowanae as some growers call it, still is debatable. I was originally convinced that N. rowanae was a true species, but the fact that there is a N. Viking from Thailand with similar if not almost identical characteristics of Rowanae around and some of its variants just as it occurs with Rowanane would make anybody think twice about these being in fact new species rather than two mirabilis hybrids!

    Rowanae and Viking could just be complex hybrids that are evolving to species. Now to make things more interesting, i would like to bring up the fact that the description of species

    a group of organisms that have a unique set of characteristics (like body shape and behavior) that distinguishes them from other organisms. If they reproduce, individuals within the same species can produce fertile offspring.

    Individuals from different species can't interbreed. Then why this happens with Nepenthes. Are we dealing with species or subspecies? Maybe they all belong to one Genus Nepenthes and one species. Actually two or three since nobody has been able to hybridize N. pervillei and N. viellardii.

    Gus
    Lol. I think we need to re-consider our defination of a species! I meem there are so many genus that have species that are cross fertile i.e.Nepenthes(excluding pervelii(Sp?)),Sarracenia,many Pingiculia,and others. Under the current definition all these would be the same species,but look at a Lowii and a hamata for instance very different indeed!
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/pondboy/Neps/Neps%20sig..JPG[/img]

  7. #23

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    Tony I guess it all depends on what biolagy course you took Lol. Hmmm. edwardsiana x hamata sounds nice....but edwardsiana is so rare in cultivation that it would be rather hard to make this cross. I think all people crossing Neps should record the data of what traits seem to be dominant when crossed with the particular specie. And then we could make a data base for this and that would help perspective hybridizers chose what species pollen to use. Of course this is just my views....
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/pondboy/Neps/Neps%20sig..JPG[/img]

  8. #24

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    Hi all:

    Tony: I am sorry i did not describe the whole concept fully. Species are members of a group of individuals that can interbreed. I guess we need to go one step up and describe what a genus is:

    Genus
    A more exact taxonomic classification than the family taxon. Organisms sharing the same genus share many similarities but cannot produce fertiles offspring if not reproducing with a member of the same species.

    This is from an Online biology dictionary.

    If we follow this concept clearly: N. lowii must not hybridize with N. ventricosa, N. truncata, and many other neps, because even though the all belong to the Genus Nepenthes, they both belong to what we call different species. Strangely enough we all know that in fact, Lowii produces hybrids with many other neps. I guess Geoff must agree with me on this one.

    Following this hypothetical statement on Pervillei, viellardii, and the 120 or more neps around the world, we would have to conclude that even though they all belong to the genus Nepenthes, we may in fact have only three species.

    Gus

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