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Thread: Awesome hibrid idea!

  1. #25

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    BTW:

    What a mess i got myself into, but as others have mentioned previously, i am enjoying this very much.

    I guess i am masochistic.

    Gus

  2. #26
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Well Gus You got me again.. I have looked at multiple online deffinitions for genus as well as a couple in my old text books. I can't find one that says members of the same genus produce infertile offspring or that they can not interbreed. Most simply just state a taxonomic group of one or more species. Some go further and state that the species within a genus can interbreed but make no reference to infertile or fertile offspring.

    Here is just one of the links I looked at Genus deffinitions

    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  3. #27

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    Tony, you might have to wait a while for edwardsiana x hamata. Macrophylla x hamata may well be produced very soon, as someone I know has a macrophylla of flowering size (it just has to come up with the goods), and we have both male and female hamata. Timing will always be an issue though *sigh*
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

  4. #28

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    Hi Tony:

    Try this website and look for the word genus.

    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary.asp

    Cheers,

    Gus

  5. #29
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Well that does indeed confirm what your saying. However as I said earlier I read many deffinitions which say just the opposite. Seems to confirm there are varying deffinitions and exactly what constitutes a species is open to debate. Particularly in the plant world you have case after case of not only intrageneric hybrids but intergeneric hybrids that get very complex. I don't think you can apply the deffinition that they can't interbreed if they are not the same species when your dealing with plant life. Ability to breed (or not) and to produce either fertile or infertile offspring is just one tiny aspect to help differentiate between different species. Clearly in the case of many plants it is not a very good one either since if were applied rigorously you would end up with a genus with a single species and hundreds of subspecies. It isn't difficult to to look at all the different Nepenthes and see how they are all similiar in the more general ways but clearly different when you get down to smaller details. Calling them the same species because they are still able to breed with each other and hence conflict with the one deffinition you found, goes against all the other differentiating features used by taxonomists.

    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  6. #30

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    Tony:

    Thanks for your reply. Going back the original discussion:
    Yes, you are right. Nobody can't go and remake hundreds of years of taxonomy for the reasons you cited. The problem is that taxonomy relies too much on physical characteristics that one can mistakenly be classifying a plant as species, when it fact it is a complex hybrid that resembles such species. It has happened in the nep world with N. ramispina hybrids being labelled N. gracillima or clipeata hybrids being labelled pure clipeatas.

    It is time for genetic analysis to take over; otherwise confusion will eventually take over and dominate plant taxonomy for many years to come.

    Gus

  7. #31

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    Amen!
    You have just recieved the Amish Computer Virus. Since the Amish don't have computers, it is based on the honor system. So please delete all the files from your computer. Thank you for your cooperation.

  8. #32
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    I think genetic analysis could be a useful tool. Especially when a really oddball plant comes along and doesn't fit any of the current known species or hybrids exactly. I am not a geneticist but wouldn't you need reference data on all the species and possibly natural hybrids too? The problem with that is the cost and time involved to acquire the information. And the problem of knowing if you have the pure species when your collecting that data in the first place. Your also relying on older nongenetic analysis methods to make the determination if you have the described species or not so right off the bat there is room for error and your reference data may be flawed. So nothing is perfect. Considering taxonomy has been around for 150yrs without genetic analysis I don't think confusion will take over. Quite on the contrary, since the start of Nepenthes species classifications it has gotten less confusing and many initial mistakes have long since been corrected.

    I agree about the problem of some hybrids labelled as species. Particularly when it is a hybrid that has a single different species in it's distant past followed by multiple crosses back to the dominant parent. That's why it is so important to have very specific and accurate descriptions.

    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

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