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Thread: Awesome hibrid idea!

  1. #1

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    Hey! Here is where you can post your great and creative hibrid ideas so others can make them and name them after you!

    Well, here's my idea: Nepenths Lowii x Hamata x Veitchii
    An inner-curved spikey peristome which is really flared on the outside of the pitcher, it's a decent size and color with a cool waist. Well, i'm assuming it would be a decent size, and i can safely assume a good color from it's hamata (lowers) and veitchii heritage. Good Growing!
    P.S. If someone makes this, please name it the "anorexic shark". That would be an awesome name. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]
    You have just recieved the Amish Computer Virus. Since the Amish don't have computers, it is based on the honor system. So please delete all the files from your computer. Thank you for your cooperation.

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    Hmmh, I think aristolochioides x truncata would be a fine hybrid, too [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]
    Happy Growing!

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    Often, the more complex a hybrid gets, the less inspiring it is. There are a few notable exceptions, but there's plenty of dross around supporting the proposition. It also depends on what you mean. Are you talking about (lowii x hamata) x veitchii, or lowii x (hamata x veitchii), or even (lowii x veitchii) x hamata.... All of them would look significantly different. Crossing lowii (a plant with striking lower peristome but virtually no upper peristome) with hamata would probably give you great lower pitchers, but doubtful uppers. To then cross it with veitchii, well the hamata teeth would probably almost invisible and would the lowii waisting, and the veitchii peristome would dominate. The best hybrids are those with features that complement or contrast each other, not those whose feature clash. Crossing a species with little or no peristome with one with a fantastic peristome will mostly give you a hybrid with a neither here not there peristome (i.e. you could albomarginata the "Species that Ate the Peristome", just look at its hybrids with northiana and veitchii).

    You'd need some intensive selective breeding and back crossing to get complex hybrids that show the features you want in complex hybrids.

    But that is me being a practical wet blanket....

    Given my spiel, I'd be interested in seeing what hardy hybrid you'd get from inermis x campanulata, or campanulata x eymae (similar shaped species crosses of highland and lowland species), or hamata crossed with another species with prominent or remnant teeth, or jacquelineae or platchila crossed with veitchii, hurrelliana or northiana - they all have showy peristomes which may augment each other.
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

  4. #4
    MadAboutCPs's Avatar
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    The idea of hybridisation is a great idea and it does occur in the wild with species found in the same area. A hybrid plant is unique in its own right.
    Hybridisation in the long run is rather beneficial. It will result in stronger and tolerant plants, thus strengthening the gene pool.
    Simplisticly (if there is such a word), crossing hybrids with the same hybrid or a specie to produce seeds of a pure species will result in genetic diversity.
    Hybridising these plants will allow botanist to uncover new data and discover which characteristic is dominant over another species. For all we know, some species that exist today could be complex hybrids themselves and without this data, no-one will know.

    A complex hybrid I would be interested in is:

    N. (aristolochioides x hamata) x (campanulata x lowii)

    And the hybrids themselves.

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    Interesting points, although not all your points appear to be borne out by several hundred years of hybridisation in cultivation and field observations of Nepenthes.

    There is a phenomenon known as hybrid vigour, which does appear in some Nepenthes hybrids, principally f1 hybrids (hybrids between pure species). However, hybrids do not appear to be as fertile as species, and the lack of fertility increases with the complexity of the hybrid. The more complex the hybrid, the less seed that is set, and the less that germinates.

    Whilst hybridisation does occur in the wild, they don't seem to form dominant populations, or succeed overall. Anecdotal evidence in the field would indicate that complex hybrids are rarely, if ever, seen in the wild, and that hybrids don't interbreed well with the parent species. Hybrids do appear, but the parent species win out overall. Remember that species have evolved to fill ecological niches through natural selection over huge time periods. Hybrids generally don't have the full matrix of attributes needed for their niche, so generally can't outperform the parent species.

    As to whether hybridisation gives rise to new species, I can only speculate. I would hazard a guess it has more to do with divergence within a population than hybridisation, although the latter may play a part (evolution in other species appears to come from variation within a population, rather than an influence from an external one). Genetic analyses may provide some answers there. An interesting area for future study.
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

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    Hi all:

    Interesting topic for discussion. Genetic diversity only comes from the random and/or environmentally influences on an individual: in this case a nep.
    Divergence within a population can only occur through mutation. This is an extremely rare event and it will take several spontaneous changes in a DNA sequence or group of sequences within a genome of an individual to look, behave and function significantly different from others of the original pure population. Furthermore, it is well known that pure species found in the wild, very much isolated, tend to be more fragile and can disappear more quickly if there happens to be a drastic change in its original habitat, not to mention the potential genetic aberrations and malformations in individuals who breed with others within a single and isolated population.

    Mixing genes from two distinct population of plants enhances the chances of their survival, because the individual plants have a larger pool of genetic information which could potentially confers a selective advantage over others.

    My guess is that in the wild, only those crosses which confer hybrid vigour would have a selective advantage over those crosses which don't. Mother nature takes care of everything in a very subtle way.

    BTW, truncata X aristolochioides hybrids do exist.

    Gus

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    I still think that if hybridisation were such a successful evolutionary strategy, there'd be evidence in the field of hybrid speciation on a regular basis, which there doesn't appear to be. The mere fact that hybrids are not as fertile as species gives a good clue as to why.

    As for fragility, well that's an inevitable consequence of adaptation to a particular environment. It is interesting to note that some Nepenthes seem to be highly adapted to a very particular geographical niche, whereas mirabilis is the catch-all variety which fills in the gaps. It would be interesting to discover whether it is a progenitor species, or a successful "sibling".

    How much evolutionary genetic study has there been done on Nepenthes anyway? And is there any difference between plant evolution and animal evolution?? Gus, what you say about genetic mutation being rare is interesting, and hybridisation giving rise to genetic diversity also sounds logical. But that seems to infer that speciation arises from hybridisation, not evolution (in the genetic differentiation sense). Is that your thesis?

    Hamish
    Demystifying Nepenthes: http://www.nepenthesforeveryone.com

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    MadAboutCPs's Avatar
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    Gus, you pretty much sumed up what I was going to say. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    They are most definately interesting points to ponder. Without hybridising and backcrossing, it would eventually result in a weaker gene pool (inbreeding is not healthy). Referring to anecdotal evidence the population of Nepenthes is decreasing as a result of deforestation and just stupid people that overlook these plants growing in the habitat they are clearing for land. A few are endangered species and roughly 70% of Nepenthes turn out to be males (they'd most definately be competing to show the female whose seed pod is better!). Variation can arise within a species or a hybrid, however evolution occurs through natural mutations (being stress related or another factor). Wether they survive in the wild or not is another story and will result in natural selection. Nepenthes are much more tolerant of temperatures and humidity than they have been given credit for.

    How does one prove that wild collected seeds of a Nepenthes species that exist today have not been back crossed? For example, N.(ampullaria x rafflesiana) x (ampullaria x rafflesiana) This itself may result in variation within the seeds. But only further research will answer everyone's questions.

    As you mentioned, hybrid vigour does appear in some Nepenthes hybrids. Not all. In most cases the hybrid will exhibit the traits of both parents but not to the degree of the species themselves. This does not make the hybrid, inferior. In the case of a donkey and a horse you get a mule which is infertile. The fact that seeds can still be produced gives a far greater chance of survival than something that cannot reproduce at all.
    Remember nepenthes have developed a seed structure that can be carried by the wind over great distances.

    Genetic analyses will definately assist in identifying a plant, especially prior to sale!

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