very good post Trent. i hope to get seeds from my veitchii pollenations(its the only thing i asked Santa for [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img] ) so that i get to see some of this stuff first hand. i think you miss understood me on your N. [(maxima x Mixta) x veitchii] x (northiana x veitchii) what i ment was is while the hybrid looks complex(and in some respects it is) it is only actually involving 3 species. i would love to see some pics of that cross.