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Thread: What happens when..?

  1. #9
    Flip_Side_the_Pint's Avatar
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    what about two plain plants?

    Like say a hirsuta and a reinwartiana (lowland winged) ?
    https://www.instagram.com/hull.jess/ (I post pics of my plants there)

  2. #10

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    Hi Everyone,
    I was discussing this thread over dinner last night with my wife Michelle, who is quite the Nepenthes enthusiast and an expert grower in her own right. She is quite open minded where the hybrid “value” issue comes up. Together we came up with this somewhat long post, but it is based on observations we have had the privilege to make:
    Here are some pics (please forgive, it’s our first attempt at posting photos here, hope it works).



    These are two siblings of the hybrid I mentioned earlier N. [(northiana x veitchii) x Tiveyi]. (Tiveyi = maxima x veitchii) Out of four seedlings, we have two that have red peristomes and red spotting and two seedlings that have peristomes with yellow with red stripes and a pink/orange pitcher with green spotting. We have other crosses involving the same three species (maxima, northiana, veitchii) with even greater color variation. No, maxima or northiana is not dominant from what we have seen.
    We also received a N. [(maxima x Mixta) x veitchii] x (northiana x veitchii) and it is not Mixta or maxima colored. In fact, it looks like a veitchii on steroids!

    Considering that these are still seedlings, we expect that they will be spectacular as adults. We really don’t see how any of these are less pleasing to the eye compared to any of the root parent species. They are neither better or worse, just different. Some people may not agree, but that’s okay. Everyone has different taste.

    We have many seedlings from complex hybrids. Out of three or thirty or fifty seedlings, each one is unique and has its own signature look. Sometimes a species three generations back will show its traits in one sibling more than the immediate parents. Hybrids with maxima or Mixta don’t always look like Mixta, nor do any of the seedlings look the same. We have another Mansell cross that is like nothing else we’ve seen. N. [(thorelii x Mixta) x sumatrana]. We have three siblings and all three are different. One is light pink, fat and squat with red spotting. Another is narrow and dark maroon. The third and largest has a waist rib like sumatrana, with a pink and yellow striped peristome, with dusty rose colored pitcher with purple spots.
    Visitors of our greenhouse do not look at these plants as less spectacular than our species. Quite often they point and say “Wow!” to the hybrids first. Complex hybrids can be dull if the parents used are not superior. Sometimes primary hybrids can be dull… wait a minute… I’ve seen dull looking pure species! It does seem that the best hybrids come from superior species parents. It’s all in the eye of the beholder. If it’s not found in nature, it doesn’t mean it can’t be attractive. Not to say anything negative about species. I think line breeding should be done within the same species, even preserving the different varieties.
    Seeing more than one or two seedlings from any complex hybrid, we know how many color and shape variations there can be. It’s like the wild west with Nepe nthes breeding right now. The territory is open and who knows what will come out of it.

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  3. #11
    rattler's Avatar
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    very good post Trent. i hope to get seeds from my veitchii pollenations(its the only thing i asked Santa for [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img] ) so that i get to see some of this stuff first hand. i think you miss understood me on your N. [(maxima x Mixta) x veitchii] x (northiana x veitchii) what i ment was is while the hybrid looks complex(and in some respects it is) it is only actually involving 3 species. i would love to see some pics of that cross.
    cervid serial killer
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  4. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Trent @ Dec. 22 2004,4:04)]Gotta agree with Dustin-you get a bland, generic looking Nep.
    We just recently brought in a bunch of Geoff Mansell's hybrids combining three species: veitchii, maxima, and northiana.
    Crossing (northiana x veitchii) with Mixta and Tiveyi, and then crossing veitchii or maxima back into the mix you get some really nice, showy Nepenthes hybrids! The peristome and pitcher colors and combinations of color are beautiful. Some of these hybrids are four generations down the line. I don't know what seed viability problems may be occurring, but those three species do seem to make a magical combination.
    Other hybrids, including primaries, are completely sterile. As an example: the N. Ventrata we all have(in the USA and Europe) that comes from Belgium.
    There's so much more to do and learn with Nepenthes hybrids...

    Trent
    N.ventrata sterile? I know someone(Matti I believe?) who crossed this plant with ventricosa and grew seedlings.
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/pondboy/Neps/Neps%20sig..JPG[/img]

  5. #13

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    Trent: very nice! I especially like the nice red peristome on the second one.
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/pondboy/Neps/Neps%20sig..JPG[/img]

  6. #14

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    There is more than one plant of the hybrid N. ventrata (alata x ventricosa). The female N. ventrata in tissue culture (sold in garden centers and widely available) is sterile. We have crosses with N. ventrata, too - obviously not the same plant.

  7. #15
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    It is deffinately the wild west hehe. Alot of people look at hybrids and get dissappointed that such and such a feature is not prominent. 'See you wrecked the species' Instead of looking for the pleasing combinations you do get. Careful breeding between parents and using high quality material can yield amazing plants in their own right! It is however, also possible to put together the wrong plants and totally wipe out all the plusses. Ending up with something that is neither here nor there that lacks interesting color or pattern or shape. There are plenty of hybrids in both groups.

    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  8. #16

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    Tony,
    Know what you mean. Here in Florida the hybrid of N. ampullaria green x veitchii L/L was made around ten years ago. You'd expect something cool looking, but what you get is a plain green, non - descript pitcher - about as generic looking as you can get. That doesn't mean that the same cross done again will produce the same bland results. As orchid breeders know, selected clones give different results each time. Even repeating a cross doesn't always give the same result. As an example, Ascocenda Yip Sum Wah, remakes of the cross have never resulted in quality as fine as the original grex.
    As for Nepenthes, the variation, both spectacular and bland, is never ending. Hybridizing is about the right combination, and that's what cultivars are all about. Not every seedling has the best traits of the parents, even when the parents are superior. In more complex hybrids, the variation is even greater with different positive traits showing in different seedlings.

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