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Thread: Unknown nep from thailand

  1. #1

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    Hi Everyone,
    Here are some pics of N. from Thailand.
    They look almost like a giant thorelii, but the growth habit is different.








    Compared to a N. thorelii (d) purple pitcher on the left.


    More later,
    Trent (and Michelle)

  2. #2

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    Wonderful. But you know, the most interesting picture is the final one, where you can see how similar your thorelii(d) is to this new "giant thorelii". I would say they're the same species, whatever species they are, only different forms, like insignis from Biak or Tayeve.
    The two small pictures with 2 different stems, are they both from giant thorelii or one is from thorelii (d)?
    It would be great to see the pictures of the stem, lid, pitcher etc of both plants one next to the other.
    I'm preparing a page called "x-plants" on Nepenthes of Indochina, to compare all the specimens that we don't know much about. We talked about that in the WildJungle forum.
    Surprisingly, on that page, it clearly appears how there are mainly 3 "species" to which all the x-plants can be reconducted (I'll put the page on the forum when it's ready, for a final check before putting it on the website).
    The 3 types are basically what Nong calls "thorelii-Cambodia", then the plant with small roundish pitchers from Laos and then your thorelii (d).

    One of these could be the true thorelii, the others new species. Sometimes I also think that N. smilesii from different countries could have quite different shapes, and that could explain some of those x-plants. But up to now the forms I've seen from Phu Kradung, ThungSalengLuang and 2 national parks in Cambodia are yes variable, but not SO variable to produce so different pitchers like the 3 types that I said before.

    And then, when you look at the last of the photos you posted, you see how these plants can be variable but still you can see they're the same species, when that happens.
    You'll see that quite well in my new page about x-plants.
    Wonderful specimen, really.
    Marcello
    Last edited by Marcello Catalano; 01-30-2017 at 04:12 PM.

  3. #3

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    Marcello,
    Both of the two photos of the vine side by side are the giant thorelii mystery Nep. Here is a pic of the leaf, notice the strong V shape characteristic of our two specimens.

    The thorelii d does not have this leaf structure. More pics to come...
    Feel free to use any of the pics on your Nepenthesofthailand website, Michelle took all of these pictures.

  4. #4

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    Very nice plant. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]

    This 'Giant Thorelii' appears to be quite variable both in pitcher colour and form. Here is a photo of my plant: http://tinypic.com/a2w3l0.jpg

    I believe this is a separate species to the various clones of N. 'thorelii' which are currently in cultivation due to the fact that it exhibits, as mentioned previously, a different growth habit compared to the others. The leaves look very similar to those of N. 'Viking', which got me thinking that maybe N. 'Viking' is a hybrid between this plant and N. rafflesiana (or a more complex cross involving some other Thai species)? Please let me know what you think.

  5. #5

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    I thought it could be a hybrid between N. viking and the N. smilesii (it should be smilesii, but I just saw the upper pitchers) that you can find on one of the aopanga islands.
    Also the "giant thorelii" has been found in one of those islands. Unfortunatly we never know much about the rest of the colony where these plants are found. It's very good that this time on Nong's site you can see a picture of different "giant thorelii" pitchers from different clones. But while in one clone they look like a bigger N. thorelii (d), in another clone they look like a N. viking!

    Again, let's look at the plants you have (Trent and Nepgrower), take pictures of the leaf attachment, lid shape and how the glands are scattered, in your N. viking, thorelii (d) and the different thorelii "giant" forms you have. Let's do a comparison. That should help a lot already.

    It's strange that for example the two Trent's specimens of "giant" show a very different attachment leaf/stem. Is it possible that it's because they are extremes of the same hybrid (one looks more similar to one species, the other clone to the other species involved in the hybrid) ? But leaf attachment in N. viking is the same as N. mirabilis, and it has nothing to do with these two "giants" (nepgrower, if you think that's not true, post a pic of the leaves of your viking and of your thorelii "giant", maybe we'll have a surprise!).

    Hopefully the two Trent's giants will start looking more similar in cultivation. That will also help to study and compare these plants without being confused by the extreme (and extremely beautiful) shapes and colors they have in the natural habitat.

    Up to now, I'm still quite impressed by the similarity between N. thorelii giant and thorelii (d) in that photo.

    To bring some more confusion [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img] I remind you about a plant called N. "kuraburi", at Nong's site, that is similar to N. viking but comes from the Kuraburi area. Its stem is the same as the first stem picture from the Trent's giants !!!

    Guys, let's see what we have, let's put on the table any photo, any doubt, any thought, any theory, any lid!, any specimen we have. The more material = the more confusion at the beginning = the more truth at the end.

    Marcello

  6. #6

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    There are many forms of these kinds of Nepenthes grow naturally together with N. sp. 'Viking'. It might be just a form of N. thorelii but it could be a natural hybrid with N. sp. 'Viking' x thorelii or even be another form of N. sp. 'Viking'.

    And beside that, there are many intermidiate forms between what we called N. thorelii and N. sp. 'Viking'. came together with wild-collected N. sp. 'Viking'.

  7. #7

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    We are fairly sure that Viking is not a natural hybrid with rafflesiana. We have yet to see a Viking display spots, and rafflesiana passes its spotting on to its progeny. We have compared growth habits of Viking, thorelii(d), 'Red Tiger' thorelii, Cambodian thorelii, thorelii 'Giant'-Aopanga, kampotiana, and (thorelii-red x thorelii-squat). All are in our greenhouse and we admit it is confusing. For one, we are fairly convinced that Viking has its ancestry in mirabilis, and is either a subspecies or a sp. nov. The giant thorelii are acclimating to our greenhouse after a long trip from Thailand, but are already sending up new leaves. Like Marcello explained, lets see what they look like in our horticultural environment in a few months.
    Marcello asked for any ideas or theories, well, based on our observations, here it is: This group of Nepenthes are all recent evolutionary forms, probably rooted in mirabilis and smilesii. As to whether they are mostly or all subspecies, or distinct species is up to taxonomists-you know, the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Personally, we think the giant thorelii is not a hybrid with Viking, but its own thing, probably derived from Thai thorelii (we are proceeding with the notion that 'true thorelii' is found to the north, in a band extending from Vietnam, thru Cambodia, northern Thailand and perhaps into Laos-but none of this is truly verified yet). Thai thorelii-the Red Tigers etc, are not true thorelii, but may be smilesii. We are not sure about this and are leaning towards thinking that Thai thorelii is actually a distinct species allied to smilesii. They look different from our kampotiana, which bears a much closer resemblance to Marcello's seedling smilesii plants from Phu Kradung. We view smilesii as really being several subspecies.
    May we stick our necks out further and theorize that all these Indochina Neps have occurred since the last ice age, as the region has gradually become more tropical, Nepenthes have spread north into this monsoonal tropical climate, and we are seeing an evolutionary snapshot of species differentiation.

  8. #8

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    Nepenthes sp. 'Viking' could not be a natural hybrid of N. rafflesiana as there is no N. rafflesiana native to Thailand, or if there is, it might be found in far south near Thai-Malaysian border which is hundreds miles far from N. sp. 'Viking' habitat.

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