Starting an Utric Aquarium

[ChronoKiento]

Hi all!

I've recently re-caught the CP bug now that I'm done with school and actually have time.. so one of my new experiments is to make an utric aquarium. I'm starting off with something small, just a 5.5 gallon aquarium which I've filled with distilled water and some peat moss (which I really hope decides to sink some time in the next few days). The first addition to this aquarium will be U. gibba mostly because it's easy to grow. So if I manage to kill that, I know that I have a problem. But I'm really looking at making like a working ecosystem with some non-cps and maybe even some fish if I can get it going stable. I'm intending to keep it outside for the summer as long as it doesn't prove to be too difficult keeping the water level high enough. So it's basically just going to be an open aquarium sitting outside. I wasn't intending on putting a filter or anything like that on it either if I can get away with it. I'd like to try to create a self-preserving ecosystem of sorts to keep algae levels low, the water aerated, and the CO2 levels high enough to grow some utrics and -maybe- I could try aldrovanda again sometime if I feel confident in it enough. I'm not sure if it's really possible to simulate an ecosystem well like that, but I am going to try. My main concern is algae. I've tried having similar aquatic setups not entirely unlike this in the past and it ended up not working out too well because the algae just took over ridiculously fast. At the time I was only trying to grow aldrovanda in it as well so I was more or less doomed from the beginning. That's part of the reason that I'm starting with something a little simpler.

So I'm looking for some tips on what kind of plants/critters I can add to help create my little ecosystem (duckweed, hornwort?) and keep the algae at bay (snails?). I'm also really interested in seeing what kind of setups some of you guys have so I can get some ideas of what works and what might not work.

Any tips or pictures of your setup that you can share would be greatly appreciated!

 

[SubRosa]

Good luck! In small systems exposed to full sun, algae can be murder. My best suggestion would be to use rainwater, ro or distilled only, and add some peat to drop the pH and tint the water, both of which will help inhibit, but not prevent algae. Snails won't do very well under those conditions, but some fish will. Enneacanthus species, the Blue Spotted (which is PA legal) the Banded (PA extirpated, illegal) and Black Banded Sunfish (PA endangered, illegal) I often find in NJ under the conditions described right alongside U. gibba. Redfin Pickerel as well, but they require large tanks. Pygmy Sunfish would be great, but aren't cold hardy this far north, and you have to be right on top of them to appreciate them However any fish will contribute nitrogenous waste, which will help fuel algae. 40+ years as a hobbyist and 25+ working in the aquarium trade have shown me the futility of trying to maintain a "self preserving ecosystem", at least on the scale under discussion. If you want something reasonably maintenance free, dig a small pond. Or simply accept the fact that you will be cleaning this yourself.

 

[Tanukimo]

First of all, let me say it will be pretty to difficult to grow Aldrovanda well without additional CO2 supplementation. I have a utric tank with three species that all do well for me but if I add Aldrovanda in there it inevitably declines after a while. The tank is not supplemented with CO2. The peat moss will sink eventually, but you can speed up the process by moving the container back and forth to make the heavier clumps fall to the bottom.

Duckweed will help control algae by removing excess nitrates from the water but you will need to cull it from time to time to prevent it from taking over the tank. I'm not sure if hornwort does that as well, but it might be worth a try. Personally I would not add fish to the tank. Their waste products would add to the bio-load in the tank and you would probably need to supplement the tank with oxygen, which would be detrimental to your plants. On the other hand, Daphnia would provide food for your Utricularia and help with algae. Snails that don't eat your plants will probably eat the rotting parts of them, so I don't think they would be helpful in combating algae.

I find that if the water is acidic enough, algae is usually not a problem. I set up a plastic tub outside with 2 inches of peat moss at the bottom and added some macrorhiza that had been overrun by algae, and within a week most of the algae had disappeared.

I don't think gibba, nor most aquatic utrics, are going to die in your setup. They might stop producing bladders if your conditions are not ideal, though. I find that to be a good indicator of whether or not I am providing what my plants need.

 

[Axelrod12]

I'm gonna pretty much agree with what's been said.

Hornwort should work well to absorb nutrients, pretty much any floater will do the same job though. Water lettuce, frogbit, duckweed (which is a pain), etc.

As said before algae is probably inevitable in full sun. I would try to shade the tank. Have you considered something near a window? Or lighting a small indoor setup with something like a desk lamp. I don't know the exact light requirements of all aquatic utrics, for example u. graminifolia may not do as well under lower lighting, but I would think there are quite a few that would do fine.

I have set up several "aquatic vases" using either desk lamps or just overflow window light. I didn't use just low light plants either and everything did just fine. I even kept a few ramshorns in one of the vases with no problems. I can't transfer the pics directly here right now because I'm at work but here's a link to the thread on a diff forum:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=432393&highlight=

 

[RSS]

u. graminifolia may not do as well under lower lighting
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=432393&highlight=

It does just fine under the low watt power compacts, 9W or so is plenty to get some nice growth. I've only tried to grow a few Utrics out doors and all have ended badly, but its gets really hot in the summer here.

I think you would be happier with U. graminifolia instead of U. gibba if you were only going to grow 1 utric.

Swap the duckweed for Salvinia if you can find it and its not on your states bad weed listing. For a floater is a lot easier to control and generally better all around. But is illegal is a lot of States due to the invasiveness of the species.

 

[ChronoKiento]

All right, so based on everyone's information. I definitely won't add any fish to the mix, just some daphnia and whatever other little critters I can find. I think I will also move the tank to the shaded side of my deck so that it will only get direct sun in the morning. I'll keep it there until I'm confident that I have the algae under control. I considered moving it to a windowsill but I don't think it will be nearly enough light. I don't want to move it there until it gets too cold to keep outside. It's more of a backup plan I suppose, but we'll see how it goes.

I do want to add some duckweed because I kind of like it and because of the reasons stated by everyone else, but I'll look for salvinia too. At the moment I don't know where I'm going to acquire either of them. I have been warned that it can get crazy (though I've heard the same about U. gibba) so I'll be sure to prune and give away the trimmings.

I have seen some amazing tanks of U. graminifolia and I love the way it looks so I'm going to see if I can get some of that growing at the bottom. Other than that, I haven't decided what other utrics I could add (if there is even any room for more) but I'm not going to add aldrovanda unless I somehow happen upon some. In my old tank I had a cheap CO2 bubbler that was a pain to maintain, so I'm pretty turned off from that at the moment. I just enjoy the challenge.

Thanks for all the information and the pictures! I love seeing other people's setups. It helps motivate me to make mine look just as nice. I'll post updates when they come. Right now it's just a big tank of black water with a peat hat so I'll hold on the pictures for the time being, haha.

 

[Axelrod12]

I don't think I have any salvinia left. I kinda killed it all off on purpose since it was getting out of control. If you want I can send you some frogbit and possibly a couple water lettuce though. They will probably come with some lesser duckweed as well. I can't seem to get rid of it no matter how hard I try. Let me know if you are interested. U. gibba can get a little crazy but is much easier to control than duckweed. It just has a habit of getting tangled in other plants. It's permanently ingrained itself into a bunch of java moss in one of my tanks.

 

[SubRosa]

One consideration about your choice of Utric. Does U. graminifolia get traps large enough to take mosquito larvae? A consideration if there are no fish to eat them.

 

[ChronoKiento]

Axelrod12, I'm definitely interested in the frogbit if you have any to spare! I need to wait a few days to let all the peat settle, but I should be ready for it within a week or so. I'm worried that the water is going to stay the murky brown color that it is now. I think maybe I should have rinsed the peat a bit beforehand, I was concerned that I'd be washing away necessary tannins and such. I scooped all of the floating peat off the top and I'm hoping now that the water will clear up some. At the moment I don't think anything can grow in it. Of course, the U. gibba I ordered came in today. I wasn't expecting it so soon so I had to make a separate container for it for the time being. It was a pretty big clump so I split it up in case some dies. Maybe I am underestimating it though.

As for the mosquito larvae, I don't think many utrics have traps large enough to eat them. I'm not sure since I've never grown it myself, but I don't think U. graminifolia is one of the ones that does. I'll have to thwart the mosquitoes some other way. My pool (which has been more of a pond for the past 5 or 6 years) doesn't give us any mosquito problems so if I introduce a little water from that into my aquarium, whatever is eating the mosquito larvae in the pool (unless it is the frogs that live in the pool) will eat the ones in the aquarium too.

 

[Axelrod12]

Just shoot me a PM when you're ready for it. I'll ship it out. In my experience you are probably underestimating the gibba, it's been nearly indestructible in just about any condition I've put it in. As for the mosquito larvae maybe some mosquito dunks would work. I know when I started to get some fungus gnats I found it recommended to put them in water trays. Not sure exactly how it'd function in a tank with utrics though. Maybe someone with more experience could chime in here.

 

[Tanukimo]

I agree, you seem to be underestimating the gibba. It should be fine to put it in the tank even while the peat is still there. And there is nothing wrong with the water being brown - it means tannins are in the water, which may inhibit algae. Utricularia graminifolia will not catch mosquito larvae even if the traps were large enough because it is an affixed aquatic, but most aquatic utrics, such as macrorhiza and inflata, should have large enough bladders. There are some variants of gibba with larger traps that may be able to trap them as well.

 

[ChronoKiento]

I'm more worried about the water blocking out the sun, it's not just brown, it's pretty much black. I put a portion of the U. gibba in the tank to see if it in fact could survive, and I very quickly lost it. It's only floating just below the surface but I still can't see it. The U. gibba that I have is definitely not large enough to eat mosquito larvae, but I think that it is probably a juvenile.

 

[Axelrod12]

You could try changing out some of the tannin stained water with some clean water. It may stir up some peat but that will settle and the tannins will get diluted. At a certain point they don't leech as heavily.

 

[SubRosa]

You can always run an airstone. Mosquitos won't lay eggs in moving water.

 

[Tanukimo]

I'm more worried about the water blocking out the sun, it's not just brown, it's pretty much black. I put a portion of the U. gibba in the tank to see if it in fact could survive, and I very quickly lost it. It's only floating just below the surface but I still can't see it. The U. gibba that I have is definitely not large enough to eat mosquito larvae, but I think that it is probably a juvenile.

A light brown is pretty much the clearest the water will get without multiple water changes. The Utricularia will be floating on the surface for the most part, so it shouldn't be a problem unless you have other plants growing in the peat moss. Utricularia gibba doesn't grow larger bladders with age, so you probably have the variety with smaller bladders. However, newly hatched mosquito larvae are pretty small, so they should still be able to be caught by their tails. I wouldn't recommend putting an airstone just to agitate the water, because it would decrease the amount of CO2 in the water. To increase it you can try adding dead leaves to the water and letting them decay in your tank.

 

[SubRosa]

A light brown is pretty much the clearest the water will get without multiple water changes. The Utricularia will be floating on the surface for the most part, so it shouldn't be a problem unless you have other plants growing in the peat moss. Utricularia gibba doesn't grow larger bladders with age, so you probably have the variety with smaller bladders. However, newly hatched mosquito larvae are pretty small, so they should still be able to be caught by their tails. I wouldn't recommend putting an airstone just to agitate the water, because it would decrease the amount of CO2 in the water. To increase it you can try adding dead leaves to the water and letting them decay in your tank.

100% wrong about the CO2. Think about it. During the day, the plants are using CO2 and releasing O2. Under those conditions, the water will contain less CO2 than water which is at equilibrium with the atmosphere above it. By running an airstone, you are pushing the balance back towards equilibrium, because the air has CO2 in it. If you were artificially supplementing CO2, you would be correct. If not, running an airstone during the day will increase the CO2 dissolved in the water.

 

[Tanukimo]

I asked my friend in the aquarium trade, and here is what he had to say:

"You are adding CO2 into your water with surface agitation. By agitating the surface (like how the airstone is), it allows for more CO2 to dissolve and increases solubility. But since you're adding oxygen into the water with an airstone, it decreases the CO2 in the water. To add the most CO2 into the water, it would be best to only agitate the surface without adding oxygen....so for example adding a filter outflow which creates currents. This would allow for greater solubility of gases while not adding oxygen and allows for the water to contain a greater supply of carbon dioxide. I think by adding an airstone inside the water, you are obviously adding more oxygen than carbon dioxide."

So the surface agitation from an airstone is beneficial, while the oxygen added is not. If you want the best of both worlds, you should consider adding something to increase the flow in your tank, like a power head perhaps, without injecting oxygen into the water. Surface agitation can also prevent films and proteins from building up on the surface of the water in addition to adding more CO2.

 

[ChronoKiento]

I'm not trying to do anything real complex with this (yet). Haha, but these are good ideas for the future.

If in the next two days or so, the water doesn't clear up some, I will definitely do some water changes to see if I can make it a little less murky. Right now it's just ugly and I won't be able to grow anything in the peat like I am planning to.

And mosquitoes were never really a huge concern for me since it's a small tank and I could also put a cover on it if it becomes too much of a problem I suppose. It's good to know that the U. gibba can eat the newly hatched buggers though.

 

[Adelea]

Rubbish mossies won't lay eggs in flowing water, I have had mossie larvea in small tanks with a circulating system, plenty of movement (granted they preffer still, butthey are not confined to it), as for fish, I have a few ponds (the smallest being 15L that has U.Aurea, Gibba, Uliginosa (on the bottom) and stellaris, this small pond has a fighter fish in it and is going very well (many months on), my other ponds (in excess of 200L) have guppies, gold fish, Gudgeons and rainbow fish (Au species) and are all very happy, sedges are a good companion, as are sarracenia, but these are to large for you, a local plant called Nardoo works very well at countering algae, as do a few snail species that don't (often) feed on utrics.

I must also add that I use a spag layer on the bottom of anything smaller than 25L, then peat on larger, adding a few old sarra leaves (cut up) will also increase tannins, CO2 and growth, but I would not advise this if algae is an issue.

On a side note my Aurea and stellaris readilly catch small mossie Larvae, but that is primarilly the guppies job.

 

[SubRosa]

I asked my friend in the aquarium trade, and here is what he had to say:

"You are adding CO2 into your water with surface agitation. By agitating the surface (like how the airstone is), it allows for more CO2 to dissolve and increases solubility. But since you're adding oxygen into the water with an airstone, it decreases the CO2 in the water. To add the most CO2 into the water, it would be best to only agitate the surface without adding oxygen....so for example adding a filter outflow which creates currents. This would allow for greater solubility of gases while not adding oxygen and allows for the water to contain a greater supply of carbon dioxide. I think by adding an airstone inside the water, you are obviously adding more oxygen than carbon dioxide."

So the surface agitation from an airstone is beneficial, while the oxygen added is not. If you want the best of both worlds, you should consider adding something to increase the flow in your tank, like a power head perhaps, without injecting oxygen into the water. Surface agitation can also prevent films and proteins from building up on the surface of the water in addition to adding more CO2.

Your friend in the aquarium trade is not thinking clearly on the subject. He is not considering that the air being pumped into the water contains a certain ratio of O2 to CO2, and that the water it's being pumped into contains a different ratio of these gases, one which is poorer in CO2 because of the plants using it and releasing O2. In essence, by pumping in a mix which is richer in CO2 than that dissolved in the water, you're not driving off excess CO2, you're driving off excess O2. Talk to someone who understands the physics of partial gas pressure to get a better handle on what's happening. I've worked in the aquarium trade for a long time and still get a kick out of some of the "wisdom" dispensed by other professionals. Seriously, let a physics or chemistry professor read my posts and see with whom he/she agrees.