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Thread: Are these temps ok for outdoor dormancy???

  1. #9
    kahnli's Avatar
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    well, a venus flytrap is not a maple tree.
    a drop in temp is needed to trigger dormancy but not an extended freeze as you recomend. 40 degrees is fine to kick the plant into dormancy and is also about the average temp that the plants would encounter in their native habitat.
    Sturgeon's Law:
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    http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102021

  2. #10
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (kahnli @ Sep. 19 2006,2:52)]well, a venus flytrap is not a maple tree.
    a drop in temp is needed to trigger dormancy but not an extended freeze as you recomend. 40 degrees is fine to kick the plant into dormancy and is also about the average temp that the plants would encounter in their native habitat.
    I agree fully..
    but we arent talking about 40 degrees..
    if Southern California had temps in the 40's all winter, thsi thread wouldnt even exist..
    we are talking of an average daytime high of 60 in January..
    that means many days in January its higher than 60..probably 70..MUCH warmer than the native VFT winter temps.

    I agree..it will probably be fine.
    Joossa simply asked if his winter temps are ok for a VFT dormancy..I said its really warm for a VFT dormancy, and it is, but it will probably work, and it probably will.
    I dont see the problem with saying any of that..

    He should NOT be told "oh sure! no problem! its all perfectly nice and wonderfull!" because that isnt the truth..
    the truth is that his climate is really really warm for a VFT..
    VFT's might not be happy there..
    they would do better with a cooler winter.
    again, im not personally responsible for creating the climate a VFT can be happy and thrive in..so dont shoot the messenger.

    I cant grow palm trees or saguaro cactus in my back yard..
    and I dont attack people when they tell me I cant..

    Scot

  3. #11
    VFT and Drosera lover vft guy in SJ's Avatar
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    I am not angry or offended at nature. However I do not like to see people give inaccurate advice. The evidence you provide is (and always has been) based on your observations of bonsai trees. If a VFT was a bonsai tree then I would not be discounting your advice. The problem is that VFTs are not bonsai trees. They are not native to a climate where they expect sub-freezing temps and snow for several months a year.

    I know probably a dozen growers from all over Northern California who all manage to grow VFTs that get proper dormancy every year. You have seen my average temps, most of them are comperable within +/- 5* or so. As I stated earlier, it is normal for us to have daytime temperatures into the mid 70s right up through November around here.

    If you want to see some hard numbers than have a peek at this. Here are the average temperatures of both Palmdale, Ca and Wilmington, NC.

    Wilmington, NC Palmdale, Ca.
    Jan. 56/36 Jan. 59/34
    Feb. 60/38 Feb. 63/37
    Mar. 66/44 Mar. 68/40
    Apr. 74/51 Apr. 75/45
    May 81/60 May 83/53
    Jun. 86/68 Jun. 92/60
    Jul. 90/72 Jul. 97/66
    Aug. 88/71 Aug. 97/65
    Sep. 84/66 Sep. 91/59
    Oct. 76/54 Oct. 80/50
    Nov. 68/45 Nov. 67/39
    Dec. 60/38 Dec. 59/33

    Based on this evidence I believe that Joossa's temperatures are well within the tolerance of the VFT. They are not even close to being too warm, let alone "Far too warm". I feel completely fine telling him "oh sure! no problem! its all perfectly nice and wonderfull!" because it is. Now if he were growing bonsai trees then maybe it would be too warm.. good thing he's growing VFTs and not bonsai.

    Steve
    There are only 2 infinite things... the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe.

  4. #12
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Steve,
    I like how you deflected the topic away from "which is more important..temp or light"..which was the point of my bonsai example, and turned it into something else entirely...probably because you dont want to admit you are wrong..ok, thats fine.

    Scot

  5. #13
    VFT and Drosera lover vft guy in SJ's Avatar
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    I didn't deflect anything. First of all this topic is about "Are these temps ok for a VFT?" You answered that they were far too warm and I disagree. You backed up your claim by quoting the needs of bonsai trees. VFTs are not bonsai trees. How can you expect them to react the same way as a bonsai tree?

    If you noticed in my first post I stated that my D. filiformis plants are going dormant right now. Does that mean that my VFTs should be dormant now as well? Not at all. VFTs are not D. filiformis any more than they are bonsai. Point being that these plants are all quite different. What one plant does should not be used as a blanket statement to cover all plants who follow a similar lifecycle. If I were to give advice on dormancy based on my observations of D. filiformis I would be telling everyone that all their plants should be going dormant right now and that these temps and conditions are what is needed to make that happen. The fact is that my advice in that case would be inaccurate.

    Now, VFTS do NOT require the same kinds of temperature drops that bonsai trees do. Therefore the advice on what triggers dormancy in VFTs is different than that of bonsai. After years of observation I conclude that VFT's begin their dormancy well before the daytime temps get below 70 or 80. The biggest factor I have witnessed in this is the shortening of the photoperiod.

    To further your example, A VFT grown in a greenhouse that gets constant 70* temps day and night would not get a proper dormancy. The drop in temperature is definately part of the equation that governs proper dormancy. That part has never been in dispute. However the statement that "Temp is the most important factor" is false, ESPECIALLY when it comes to initiating dormancy in VFT's. I have years of evidence to support it.

    Steve
    There are only 2 infinite things... the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe.

  6. #14
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Steve,
    you continue to delibertely ignore my point..
    yes, im aware that VFT's are not bonsai,
    and they have different temp ranges for dormancy.

    thats not the point.

    YOU asked ME to prove that low temperature is more important than low light when it comes to triggering and maintaining dormancy..

    I did.

    yes, I know Bonsai take lower temps than VFT's for dormancy..
    but they both respond to decreasing light and decreasing temps.
    Both bonsai and VFTs respond the same way..the EXACT temperature is irrelevant..

    you are only focusing on the fact that Bonsai can take lower temps than VFT's..thats irrelevant..
    they both respond the same way to light and temp when going dormant.
    *that* is how VFTs relate to Bonsai in my example.

    low temp plays a more important role that low light.
    thats a fact.
    you get dormancy with low temps and steady light.
    you dont get dormancy high temps and decreasing light.

    you are just mincing details to avoid admitting that..im not sure why.

    im willing to give this up if you are!
    especially if you go off on another tangent in your reply.

    Scot

  7. #15
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    A VFT grown in a greenhouse that gets constant 70* temps day and night would not get a proper dormancy. The drop in temperature is definately part of the equation that governs proper dormancy. That part has never been in dispute.
    a Decrease in photoperiod is also important, that part has also never been in dispute. However the statement that "Photoperiod is the MOST important factor" is false, when it comes to initiating dormancy in VFT's, or any plant that goes dormant. I have years of evidence to support it.

    thats really the only thing disagree on..
    which is "more important"..

    you admit a plant at 70 degrees wont get a proper dormancy..ok..thats fine.

    then what, in your opinion, will happen to a VFT that gets normal gradual decreasing temps through Autumn, from 90 in July through 40 in December, but light levels dont change and lessen?
    Will the VFT be dormant in December at 40 degrees and bright light? yes or no?

    Scot

  8. #16
    VFT and Drosera lover vft guy in SJ's Avatar
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    No it wouldn't.

    I will back this up by stating that Bugweed, who we all know is an extremely experienced grower of Sarracenia, starts his seeds outdoors under a small lamp which stays on 24/7. The normal temperature decrease happens just like it does here in my yard. The light stays on full time and his baby Sarracenia do NOT go dormant the first 2 years. Now before the argument comes up that Sars dont "need" dormancy the first 2 years, Let me say that although they dont "need" it, if allowed to they will. Bugweeds plants do NOT go dormant the first 2 years under the lights.. regardless of outside temperatures.
    There are only 2 infinite things... the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe.

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