TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk
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vft guy in SJ
VFT and Drosera lover
First, Martinez and San Francisco have very different temperature ranges despite being only 35 miles apart. San Francisco sits right on the edge of the Pacific Ocean and gets a natural cooling effect from the Ocean breeze and fog. Martinez sits about 28 miles inland on the edge of the northern tip of the San Francisco bay. It does recieve some of the fog, but not the cooler temperatures that San Francisco does.[b said:
As for Martinez temperatures being "irrelevant to the discussion" I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. When compared to the temps in the VFTs natural range, the numbers are all pretty close, with Martinez winters being slightly cooler, and Wilmington summers being slightly warmer.
Wilmington, NC Martinez, Ca.
Jan. 56/36 Jan. 54/39
Feb. 60/38 Feb. 60/42
Mar. 66/44 Mar. 64/44
Apr. 74/51 Apr. 71/46
May 81/60 May 78/50
Jun. 86/68 Jun. 84/54
Jul. 90/72 Jul. 87/55
Aug. 88/71 Aug. 87/55
Sep. 84/66 Sep. 83/54
Oct. 76/54 Oct. 75/49
Nov. 68/45 Nov. 63/43
Dec. 60/38 Dec. 55/39
You seem to be under the impression that the MAX temp cant be any higher than 40* or so to achieve proper dormancy. If this is the case how do you explain that in their natural habitat the average winter daytime temps are mid 50's and 60's? Also how do you explain that in October (when the plants begin to go dormant, and by your theory would require much colder temps) the daytime temperature averages in their native habitat are in the mid 70's? How about November when the average daytime high is almost 70? By your theory, that should prevent dormancy right?
joossa
Aklys
vft guy in SJ
VFT and Drosera lover
OK Scot, I believe I see the problem here. You base your observations on bonsai trees, I base mine on actual VFTs. You say that "Both bonsai and VFTs respond the same way..the EXACT temperature is irrelevant.." THAT is the problem. You are assuming that bonsai and VFT actually do respond the same way. Why? Bonsai are trees. Trees have bark, hard trunks, limbs and leaves. VFTs do not have these things. Why should they react the same way?
Bonsai trees, being trees, are fed by sap flowing between the leaves and the body of the tree, and in reverse as the roots feed the leaves and limbs moisture. This is controlled by the flow of sap within the bark and interior of the tree. It makes sense that as long as the sap is flowing, the tree will continue to keep its leaves.. even well into winter. Thus you get your "January greenhouse bonsai". It also makes sense that as long as the sap is frozen inside the tree it will not "break" its dormancy untill the sap begins to flow in the spring. This is why your trees break dormancy "2 weeks later" when it got warmer. In essence, you are correct. When it comes to bonsai trees, and "regular" Western NY trees, its the temps that are the key triggers that initiate what we see as "dormancy".
VFTs do not react the same way as these trees do. They dont have bark, or sap. They dont expect to be frozen solid for several months through winter. They LIKE warm days and chilly nights in winter. The triggers are different. Why would a plant that never recieves a freezing temperature have a trigger that reacts to such "extreme" cold as 40*? Your plants survive the fridge dormancy method because of the adaptability of the species, your skill, and a little dose of just plain good fortune. The fact they do survive does not necessarily mean that is what they would truly "prefer". I wonder, if your plants would grow better if they were able to get a lighter dormancy on occasion. On a similar note, I bet that your bonsai tree would not fare well at all in a VFT bog in NC all winter.
Cheers
Steve
Bonsai trees, being trees, are fed by sap flowing between the leaves and the body of the tree, and in reverse as the roots feed the leaves and limbs moisture. This is controlled by the flow of sap within the bark and interior of the tree. It makes sense that as long as the sap is flowing, the tree will continue to keep its leaves.. even well into winter. Thus you get your "January greenhouse bonsai". It also makes sense that as long as the sap is frozen inside the tree it will not "break" its dormancy untill the sap begins to flow in the spring. This is why your trees break dormancy "2 weeks later" when it got warmer. In essence, you are correct. When it comes to bonsai trees, and "regular" Western NY trees, its the temps that are the key triggers that initiate what we see as "dormancy".
VFTs do not react the same way as these trees do. They dont have bark, or sap. They dont expect to be frozen solid for several months through winter. They LIKE warm days and chilly nights in winter. The triggers are different. Why would a plant that never recieves a freezing temperature have a trigger that reacts to such "extreme" cold as 40*? Your plants survive the fridge dormancy method because of the adaptability of the species, your skill, and a little dose of just plain good fortune. The fact they do survive does not necessarily mean that is what they would truly "prefer". I wonder, if your plants would grow better if they were able to get a lighter dormancy on occasion. On a similar note, I bet that your bonsai tree would not fare well at all in a VFT bog in NC all winter.
Cheers
Steve
glider14
Always a newbie
vft guy in SJ
VFT and Drosera lover
Alex, I would say probably not very well. See all those months with average lows below 32*? Thats below freezing.. too cold for VFTs. They can tolerate short periods of around or just below freezing, but by that scale you have about 3-4 months of freezing or lower temps. Sorry but thats too cold.
Steve
Steve
Alex,
yes, your winters are too cold..too severe.
some people are having good luck keeping VFT's and Sar's outdoors in bogs all winter, in the north, but the bogs are large, IN the ground, and very heavily mulched..it *can* be done, but its very risky..IMO the fridge is much safer, because inside the fridge its just *above* freezing..not far below freezing like outdoors!
Jason,
yes, the "fridge method" is good for people who have severe winters..
im up in Rochester, NY..where winter is litrerally 5 months long (all of November - March), temps in the 10-30 range for weeks at a time, and massive amounts of snow...its just far too brutal to keep CP's outdoors in those conditions..so the fridge is good.
check out here for details on the fridge method:
http://www.terraforums.com/ib312....t=16597
Scot
yes, your winters are too cold..too severe.
some people are having good luck keeping VFT's and Sar's outdoors in bogs all winter, in the north, but the bogs are large, IN the ground, and very heavily mulched..it *can* be done, but its very risky..IMO the fridge is much safer, because inside the fridge its just *above* freezing..not far below freezing like outdoors!
Jason,
yes, the "fridge method" is good for people who have severe winters..
im up in Rochester, NY..where winter is litrerally 5 months long (all of November - March), temps in the 10-30 range for weeks at a time, and massive amounts of snow...its just far too brutal to keep CP's outdoors in those conditions..so the fridge is good.
check out here for details on the fridge method:
http://www.terraforums.com/ib312....t=16597
Scot
