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Thread: Are these temps ok for outdoor dormancy???

  1. #1
    Aklys joossa's Avatar
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    These are the mean temps. for each month in my city...

    Mean Monthly Temperatures (in F) J34 F37 M40 A75 M83 J92 J98 A97 S91 O80 N67 D33

    * Annual Average High Temperatures: 98F (summer) 59F (winter)
    * Annual Average Low Temperatures 65F (summer) 33F (winter)
    * Highest Recorded Temperature: 113F (1972)
    * Lowest Recorded Temperature: 6F (1963)
    * Warmest Month: July
    * Coolest Month: December
    * Highest Precipitation: February
    * Annual Precipitation: 7.36 inches


    The letter before the number is the first letter of the month (I'm sure u figured it out).

    So r they ok for winter dormancy?
    -Joel from Southern California


  2. #2
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    IMO, thats far too warm..
    but..you really dont have any alternative, so you will just have to leave them outside and hope for the best.

    you cant use the fridge method, because it doesnt get cool enough in the autumn to trigger dormancy in the first place..so that wont work.

    Your climate is MUCH warmer than the VFT native climate..but maybe it will be cool enough in the winter to trigger a semi-dormancy..all you can do is try it! it might work..

    Scot

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    kahnli's Avatar
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    IMO, I think you should be fine. The three months below 40 degrees along with the shorter photo period will be enough.
    Below are some monthly averages I got from the National Weather Service in Wilmington, NC

    Jan 45.6 Jul 80.3
    Feb 47.4 Aug 79.7
    Mar 54.1 Sept 74.8
    Apr 54.1 Oct 64.5
    May 63.1 Nov 55.4
    Jun 76.6 Dec 48.2
    Information provided by the National Weather Service in Wilmington,
    which is located at the Wilmington International Airport
    Sturgeon's Law:
    "Nothing is always absolutely so".

    http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102021

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    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Hey, the people in California are getting their VFT's to go dormant. Photoperiod is more signicant of a factor than that of temperature.

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    kahnli's Avatar
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    and jim always sums it up better than i
    Sturgeon's Law:
    "Nothing is always absolutely so".

    http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102021

  6. #6
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Sep. 18 2006,5:38)]Hey, the people in California are getting their vFT's to go dormant. Photoperiod is more signicant of a factor than that of ltemperature.
    MORE significant is still an opinion..not a fact!

    IMO, temp is more important than photoperiod..but both are a factor. (for reasons we have been over many times...my "outdoor bonsai in a greenhouse" example..)

    it will probably be fine..its not ideal, its very much on the "warm side" of a VFT's adaptable conditions..but just try it, it will hopefully work.

    Scot

  7. #7
    VFT and Drosera lover vft guy in SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]you cant use the fridge method, because it doesnt get cool enough in the autumn to trigger dormancy in the first place..so that wont work.

    MORE significant is still an opinion..not a fact!

    IMO, temp is more important than photoperiod
    I disagree. You have never given any evidence that cold has anything whatsoever to do with plants initiating dormancy. It is important for maintaining dormancy, but not for starting it.

    Those temps are just fine. Despite Scotty's continual protests that cold is the most important factor in dormancy, my plants go dormant every single year without any problems. My winter temps are even higher than yours so I would not worry about it at all.

    Here are the average temps for my area to give you an idea:

    Jan. 59/42
    Feb. 63/45
    Mar. 67/46
    Apr. 72/48
    May 77/52
    Jun. 82/55
    Jul. 84/58
    Aug. 84/58
    Sep. 82/57
    Oct. 76/52
    Nov. 65/46
    Dec. 59/41

    It is not unusual to have warm days (in the 70's) right up through Thanksgiving around here. As soon as the daylength gets short enough (around mid-October), the plants go dormant. A perfect example of this is my D. filiformis. It has not been cooler than 80* in the daytime for months but all of the D. filiformis are showing all the normal signs of the onset of dormancy.

    Good luck
    Steve
    There are only 2 infinite things... the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe.

  8. #8
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (vft guy in SJ @ Sep. 18 2006,10:43)]I disagree. You have never given any evidence that cold has anything whatsoever to do with plants initiating dormancy.
    I have given lots of evidence...many times..apparently you just wish to ignore it.
    here it is again.

    Bonsai trees.
    Bonsai made from native upstate NY maple trees.
    they need to be outside 24/7/365.
    they need a very cold western NY winter.
    they go dormant exactly the same as any "regular" northern US tree.

    A local nursery, several years ago, was selling maple Bonsai trees..
    they had them indoors.
    they were indoors all spring.
    all summer.
    all fall.
    and into the following winter.

    I came across them in January..indoors..not dormant.
    they still had their leaves, and looked very sickly.
    they were inside a heated greenhouse.
    so lets see what happened...
    Maple trees indoors vs. Maple trees outdoors.

    Maple tree outdoors.
    late summer and into autumn.
    photoperiod and temps BOTH drop..
    tree gets temp and light cues that "its time to begin going dormant"
    tree drops its leaves in October..as it should.
    by January, in low light and freezing cold, totally dormant.

    Maple tree indoors:
    late summer and into autumn.
    tree is getting a normal decreasing photoperiod, same as outdoor trees, but temp is NOT dropping..
    indoor heat comes on in the fall..
    tree stays at 70 degrees day and night.
    photoperiod is dropping..temp isnt.
    In january, the tree is NOT dormant!
    it still has its leaves..
    conclusion: photoperiod is important, but if temps dont also drop, the plant wont go dormant.

    Decreasing photoperiod will NOT cause the plant to go dormant if temps do not also drop.

    I personally witnessed that.

    now lets take a hypothetical plant..(I did not personally witness this)
    Tree is outdoors under bright grow lights.
    temps begin to drop in the fall, but LIGHT stays bright and constant.
    temps gradually fall below freezing..light levels stay the same..
    Will that tree have leaves and be growing in January in Rochester when the temp is 10 below zero, 3 feet of snow on the ground, but lots of bright light is shining on the tree??
    unliklely! falling temps will cause the plant to go dormant, even if photoperiod does NOT drop..

    VFT's are the same..they are a plant that requires a cool winter to go dormant.

    decreasing photoperiod + 70 degrees = not dormant..just weak from lack of light.

    bright light + 35 degrees = more dormant. plant wont grow in the cold, even if the light is bright.

    less light + cold = ideal..and what VFT's get in the wild and what we should try to provide.

    conclusion to all of this?
    temp is MORE important than light when it comes to creating and maintaining dormancy.

    you can have all the light you want..a VFT at 35 degrees and tons of light will still go dormant, and will be fine in the spring.

    a VFT in a dark closet at 90 degrees for three months wont go dormant.
    it will just weaken and die.

    The same thing happens in the Spring..
    leaves on trees dont come out at exactly the same time every year.."breaking of dormancy" can happen within a variable span of three weeks or so every year.
    Photoperiod is constant..it does NOT change year to year.
    so what causes variabaility?
    temp..
    trees wont push out new leaves if the temps are still 40 degrees and its snowing..even if the photoperiod is telling them its time. they wait for the warmth, and some years that happens later than other years..even though the photoperiod is not variable..

    conclusion?
    temp is MORE important that photoperiod when it comes to causing, maintaining, and breaking dormancy.
    sorry..I didnt make this up.
    I dont undertand why some people are so offended and angry at Nature..but I guess I cant help that.


    Scot

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