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New to VFT's

Hi there !

Newbie here..Infact this is my first post!

I just bought this

http://www.hawkin.com/find/keyword-is-venus+fly+trap/product-is-08922?SearchIsReferrer=true

As the store i work in. And came around looking for information. I have potted it as per instructions in the box.

I cant keep it outside as i live in the UK and it would freeze to death!

I have a strong lamp shining on it and i will have it on for 4 hours a day as the box said. I also cut off the end of a plastic bottle and put it over the pot as i heard this is good for them ? Humidity or something ?

How can i keep it warm enough ?

Will that lamp be ok ?
 
Welcome to carnivorous plants. The lamp will not give it enough light and too much heat. It is a temperate plant. The UK should be just fine for it. Put it outside or in the brightest window of your house. The seeds won't sprout untill you give them a could period lasting for about two months. Do not keep the bottle on. It is useless where you live. Venus flytraps are also very small from seed. it will take five years for you to get a large plant. Look around online. There are many great nurseries that sell large plants. And if you buy fron www.flytrapshop.com your name will turn green.
 
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I thought VFT seed didn't need stratification? Isn't it flytrapshop.com?
 
Sorry my mistake. But flytrap seeds do need straftication. it gets cool in North Carolina
 
Nearly every guide I've read says to stratify Dionaea seed.

However seeds are often ripe by mid summer. The seeds lose viability within a few weeks unless cold stored.

These facts alone would argue against the need for stratification. However, stratification does not seem to harm the seeds. Whether or not stratification affects the germination ratios I have no idea.
 
Hi Trixie,
welcome to the forums!

Here is what I would do if I were you..

put the pot of seeds outdoors..right now..
they wont "freeze to death"..in fact, they NEED to be outside in the winter!
its good for them..keeping them indoors virtually guarantees their death..

keep the pot in a saucer of water all the time..
put it somewhere it will get lots of sun..

in the spring, if you are lucky, you will get some teeny tiny venus flytrap seedlings..
they will remain virtually microscopic for a year or two..
in about 5 years, if you are lucky, you will have one or two adult plants.

more likely..nothing will happen..or you will get a few weak seedlings that will die in a few weeks..

sorry..

but those "kits with seeds" really suck..
by FAR the worst possible way to get into carnivorous plants,
especially for someone who has never grown them before..
IMO, those kits are worthless..

put your seeds outside, keep them moist, and in the spring you might get something..

MEANWHILE! :)

I would suggest buying an adult VFT!
and starting to care for that..
SO much more rewarding than seeds!

there are several places in the UK that sell them,
we can probably dig up a few nurseries if you need some leads..

sorry to break it to you,
but im just being honest.if you are really interested in VFTs..and of course you SHOULD be because they are awesome! its really much better to simply buy a new adult plant..
they arent expensive, and there are reputable CP nurseries around who grow them well..
you can mail-order them easily.

but oh dear..I have one more bummer bit of news for you..
right now is the worst possible time of year to buy them..because right now they are going dormant..

you should buy a new VFT in the spring..
if you can just wait a few months, you can start a very cool and successful CP collection in March or April! and "do it right" right from the start, with healthy mature plants just beginning a new season..which is much more rewarding than watching anemic seedlings
slowly die under weak artificial light indoors in the winter..which is "doing it wrong" in every respect..

yours in brutal honesty,
"Scot the downer"
 
There is no need to stratify VFT seed. You can just plant them as soon as they come off of the plant. I planted all of my seed as soon as it came out of the seed pods this year. My germination rate was basically 100%.

I have read that the longer you wait to sow the seed, the lower the germination rate.
 
Welcome to Tf! And welcome to the wonderful world of discussion forums, where everybody expresses differeing opinions, most of which are valid.... and seemingly confusing. Follow Scottychaos' advice, as it is the most comprehensive.
 
Follow Scottychaos' advice, as it is the most comprehensive.
I agree that Scottychaos' advice is the most comprehensive, but I don't agree that it is the best or the advice that should be followed. I do agree with most of what Scotty wrote, but there are a few things that really stand out that I don't agree with.

put the pot of seeds outdoors..right now..
they wont "freeze to death"..in fact, they NEED to be outside in the winter!
its good for them..keeping them indoors virtually guarantees their death..
If you properly store the seeds, they can last for a long time. One good way to store them without any special equipment is to wrap them in wax paper, put them in a sealed plastic bag (like a Ziploc) and put them in the fridge. This should keep them mostly viable until springtime.

However, it is probably best to sow them right now. Seedlings can miss their first dormancy without incident, so if you have a place to sow them where you can keep them fairly warm, moist and give them a decently long photoperiod (between 12 and 16 hours) everyday, you should do that. Right now I have what appears to be over a thousand seedlings in my terrarium. Some I sowed in March, some were sowed in July and August. I am planning on leaving them in the terrarium all winter with a 16 hour photoperiod and then putting them outdoors in the spring time. This will give me something to watch grow over the winter, when the rest of my VFTs and Sarracenia are dormant.

SO much more rewarding than seeds!
This is a matter of opinion, and I don't agree. It does take a long time to raise VFTs from seeds, but for me, this actually makes the whole process more rewarding than just buying a full grown one. I too would suggest to get a full grown one to care for and enjoy, but not because it is more rewarding.

which is much more rewarding than watching anemic seedlings slowly die under weak artificial light indoors in the winter..which is "doing it wrong" in every respect..
I know of a few very reputable growers that grow many of their VFTs indoors under artificial lights (Barry Rice of http://www.sarracenia.com comes to mind). I too have experimented with growing VFTs under artificial lights and have had success. In fact, I haven't been able to replicate the deep red coloration I got from my VFTs under artificial lights when growing them outdoors. I don't think there is a "wrong" way to grow VFTs. It's true that in general VFTs don't make good terrarium pets and should be grown outside whenever possible. However, I have had way more success starting seedlings in a terrarium than starting them outside. They make the adjustment to moving outside in the spring well if you gradually introduce them to sun and lower humidity. Also, I like the idea of having something to watch grow during the winter.

Everything else that Scotty wrote I agree with. I just wanted to point out some differences in my personal opinion and growing experiences with lights and seedlings. I say go for it with the seeds if you have any interest in it. It is a long, slow process that could take up to 5 years to have an adult plant, but you will learn a lot. And, if you are anything like me, you will feel great satisfaction in knowing that you raised them from seedlings. The plants that I have owned in the past that meant the most to me, I have raised from seeds.

Hope this helps,
Matt
 
  • #10
Matt,
no problem! :)
I dont mind if anyone disagrees! ;)

now in return, I have one problem with your post! ;)

I know of a few very reputable growers that grow many of their VFTs indoors under artificial lights (Barry Rice of http://www.sarracenia.com comes to mind). I too have experimented with growing VFTs under artificial lights and have had success.

the fact that Barry Rice has mentioned he has grown VFTs indoors under lights has been taken WAY out of context many times..and it is often incorrectly used as "evidence" that its ok to grow VFTs indoors..

its not ok..

and Barry Rice grows VFTs indoors under lights for *short periods of time*..
a few months at a time.

and he also says this about dormancy:
http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq2360.html

and you cant give your plants the proper dormancy cues if they are growing indoors under lights..
sorry, but I will (apparently) fight this for the rest of my life! ;)
given two options, it is ALWAYS better to grow your VFTs outdoors..
IMO, VFTs should never be grown indoors..period..
there is no reason for it, and its bad for the plants..

if you dont have any space for outdoor growing right now, because you are a college student or live in an apartment building or something..then dont grow VFTs or Sarracenia..because you arent properly equipped to take care of them..grow D. capensis and Nepenthes instead.

I too have experimented with growing VFTs under artificial lights and have had success.

For how long?
whats the maximum time you have had them growing indoors?
how do you define "success"?
and what do you do about dormancy?

Scot
 
  • #11
About all I'll do with VFT's and indoors is this:

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Picture185.jpg


I also start Ceph leaves, D. binata leaves, and D. filfiormis leaves. When they sprout I take the VFT's and sundews outside for the growing season, into the fall.
 
  • #12
Scotty -

Let me ask you if this will work (in theory). I live in San Antonio, Texas, so winters aren't too bad, but cold enough for dormancy. I have grown my typical and B52 under strong growlights for the growing season with great success, and they have grown vigorously. I just moved both of them outside on my patio for dormancy and plan on leaving them there until March.

My questions are... first of all, will this be plausible, as it is allowing them to wind down and have an actual dormancy... and two, we are starting to get more overcast days, which means they will rarely get direct sunlight. I understand sparking dormancy deals with shortening the photoperiod (which I am doing) and reducing temperatures(which I am doing)... so is lack of sunlight for a few months enough to kill my flytrap, or is this essentially the order of things?

Ok, I promise, last question! I have a couple of random dews from stray seed that got in there (mainly D. spatulata 'Frasier Island' and D. brevifolia)... do you think these will survive as well?

If all goes according to plan, I will bring them back indoors in March. I would keep them outdoors, but I am in an apartment and the patio doesn't get too much direct light.

Thanks for your time!
 
  • #13
Scotty -

Let me ask you if this will work (in theory). I live in San Antonio, Texas, so winters aren't too bad, but cold enough for dormancy. I have grown my typical and B52 under strong growlights for the growing season with great success, and they have grown vigorously. I just moved both of them outside on my patio for dormancy and plan on leaving them there until March.

My questions are... first of all, will this be plausible, as it is allowing them to wind down and have an actual dormancy... and two, we are starting to get more overcast days, which means they will rarely get direct sunlight. I understand sparking dormancy deals with shortening the photoperiod (which I am doing) and reducing temperatures(which I am doing)... so is lack of sunlight for a few months enough to kill my flytrap, or is this essentially the order of things?

Ok, I promise, last question! I have a couple of random dews from stray seed that got in there (mainly D. spatulata 'Frasier Island' and D. brevifolia)... do you think these will survive as well?

If all goes according to plan, I will bring them back indoors in March. I would keep them outdoors, but I am in an apartment and the patio doesn't get too much direct light.

Thanks for your time!

yeah, thats not too bad..
IMO they should go outside earlier though to get proper decreasing photoperiod and decreasing temp cues..like July..but what you are doing should work fine!
mid-September isnt too bad..

I wouldnt worry about direct sun during the winter..
the plants should be barely growing, or ideally not growing at all,
so light isnt a huge issue during dormancy.

I dont know anything about those particular sundews..never grown them.
but some quick googling brought up:

Fraser Island is Queensland, Australia..
looks like USDA zone 9 or 10..looks very warm!
are you sure it even needs a dormancy?

Since you are zone 9, and the plant is from zone 9, it would probably be fine outdoors all winter...
although in this case, the zone doesnt tell you everything!
especially when dealing with different continents..
the zone number only tells you temp, nothing else....
Zone 9 in Texas might be very different, in overall climate, from zone 9 on the east coast of Australia..

does this plant go dormant during a hot dry Australian summer?
as opposed to dormancy during a cool damp North American winter? (like VFTs and Sarrs)
perhaps..I dont know..
something to look into!

Sundews have all kinds of different dormancy requirements!
since they are found all over the world..


Scot
 
  • #14
Thanks Scot -

Looks like I'll need to move them to other pots or give them away... they are growing like weeds for me. It's encouraging to hear this dormancy setup should work just fine... call me crazy, but throwing them in the fridge didn't sound to appealing for the plants!
 
  • #15
Thanks Scot -

Looks like I'll need to move them to other pots or give them away... they are growing like weeds for me. It's encouraging to hear this dormancy setup should work just fine... call me crazy, but throwing them in the fridge didn't sound to appealing for the plants!

yeah, the fridge should only be used as a last resort..if you have no other options!
for those us in the north, its necessary..(or someplace with similar temps to the fridge)

but where you are, you certaintly dont need to use the fridge!
outdoors is a much better option for you..


Scot
 
  • #16
Thanks for the reply Scot. I love discussing different growing techniques.
the fact that Barry Rice has mentioned he has grown VFTs indoors under lights has been taken WAY out of context many times..and it is often incorrectly used as "evidence" that its ok to grow VFTs indoors..
Yeah, I am aware that Barry grows his plants indoors part of the year and outdoors part of the year. If I remember correctly, he allows his plants to go into dormancy outdoors. He discusses his lighting setup here and here. I think somewhere in that thread he also talks about when he moves his plants out of the artificial light.

and you cant give your plants the proper dormancy cues if they are growing indoors under lights..
Why not? I haven't heard of anyone doing this, but if you can shorten the photoperiod and drop the temperature, there isn't any reason you shouldn't be able to.

given two options, it is ALWAYS better to grow your VFTs outdoors..
I 100% agree!

IMO, VFTs should never be grown indoors..period..
there is no reason for it, and its bad for the plants..
I can think of a few good reasons for growing VFTs indoors. If you are starting leaf pullings or seedlings, I think it's best to start them indoors. Or if you want to have something to watch grow in the winter, you can't do that outdoors. I took about 6 of my plants and put them in the terrarium I built in March. I watched them grow beautifully until about June, then moved them outside. It was nice to be able to see the beautiful plants when the rest of my plants looked basically dead (due to dormancy).

I will argue that it's not only acceptable, but it's BETTER to start leaf pullings and seeds in a terrarium. I have done both inside, in a terrarium, and outside. The pullings and seedlings grew faster and looked healthier grown inside. Once they are large enough that they aren't as susceptible to the elements (basically after skipping one dormancy), I will move them outside in the spring.

For how long? whats the maximum time you have had them growing indoors?
I have only left full grown plants in the terrarium for a few months at a time. I have read on other forums of people leaving VFTs in terrariums for over 2 year (even skipping dormancy). Personally, I have seedlings that I planted in March that will stay in the terrarium until next April. Right now, they look great. A couple of them are actually pretty large already (about the size of a quarter). I think they have grown faster than the others because they have caught a few more fungus gnats.

how do you define "success"?
A healthy plant.

and what do you do about dormancy?
For the seedlings, skip it. For the other plants, I move them to my unheated south facing porch.

Scot, have you ever tried growing a VFT in a terrarium? Have you ever grown VFTs from seeds? I have seen other posts where you recommend against growing VFTs from seed. Did you have a bad experience with it?
 
  • #17
Sorry my mistake. But flytrap seeds do need straftication. it gets cool in North Carolina

I have actually successfully grew VFT from seed without stratification. I got some fresh seeds, immdediatly planted them and they grew just fine.
 
  • #18
I have actually successfully grew VFT from seed without stratification. I got some fresh seeds, immdediatly planted them and they grew just fine.
Yep, VFT seeds need no stratification period. I have planted seeds right out of the seed pod and they germinate within 2 to 3 weeks with about 100% germination rate.
 
  • #19
Scot, have you ever tried growing a VFT in a terrarium? Have you ever grown VFTs from seeds? I have seen other posts where you recommend against growing VFTs from seed. Did you have a bad experience with it?

Yes I once tried growing them in a terrarium, before I knew better! ;)
they were weak and etoliated..I put them outdoors and never looked back.

Yes I have grown them from seeds..I was underwhelmed by the experience.
I have no desire to ever try it again.

It wasnt a "bad" experience, I think a few made it to maturity are now in the main VFT population of my collection..most died from damping-off disease.

Im not "against" growing them from seeds in theory..however I AM strongly against growing them from seed as a "first experience with growing VFTs"!

IMO, its a really bad way to start out in the hobby..
growing from seeds should be (IMO) considered an "advanced topic"..tried after someone has experience with CPs and has been growing them for a few years..
they are much harder and pickier to keep alive than adult plants..
you really need to know what you are doing to sucessfully grow CPs from seeds..
beginners have a hard enough time keeping a mature VFT alive..why make it harder than it needs to be?

The same concept also exists in the Bonsai hobby..(which I also partake in)
you can buy "bonsai kits" that contain a pot, soil and SEEDS!!
the whole concept SUCKS! :mad:
yes, you can grow bonsai from seed..but thats not the point..
for somone brand-new to the Bonsai hobby, growing your own tree from seed is a terrible way to get started..it will take literally 10 years to get a decent bonsai from seed..
and ideally you should grow your seedling out in the open ground for those first 10 years, not in a pot.."bonsai from seed" is an advanced aspect of the hobby, really not suitable for beginners..

its MUCH better to go to the garden center, buy a $10 juniper or japanese maple, do some styling and wiring on the tree yourself, and you can have your first bonsai tree in about an hour, and you "made it yourself"! and its a great learning experience..and you have a full-size tree to enjoy and take care of..rather than a tiny seedling that wont even look like a decent bonsai for a decade or more...

seeds, for CPs and Bonsai, just are a really bad way for a newby to start out..
those lame kits with seeds are a total ripoff..

Scot
 
  • #20
I totally agree that growing plants from seeds is more of an "advanced" cultivation technique and probably shouldn't be attempted as a first time grower. As Scot says, one needs to have the basic skills neccessary to keep an adult plant alive before ever attempting to grow seedlings.

I also totally agree that those seed kits are about the worst possible way to get into growing CPs. Who knows how long they have been on the shelf. Most of the seed probably isn't viable any longer and the directions included with the kits are usually sparse and misleading.

I'm sure that it is somewhere mixed in in all of my earlier posts, but I should probably summarize what I think would be the best way for trixie123 to proceed with her seeds.
I have a strong lamp shining on it and i will have it on for 4 hours a day as the box said. I also cut off the end of a plastic bottle and put it over the pot as i heard this is good for them ? Humidity or something ?

How can i keep it warm enough ?

Will that lamp be ok ?
I have experimented growing VFT seed under different circumstances. Seed seems to germinate the quickest when the humidity is high and it is kept under artificial lights. 4 hours doesn't seem like long enough of a photoperiod. However, the photoperiod doesn't seem to matter much until after the seed has germinated. It seems that the most important thing is high humidity and modestly warm temperatures. The temperatures that seem to work the best are between 70F and 80F (21C to 26C).

Once germination has occurred I would remove the plastic bottle to lower the humidity. If you keep the humidity too high, you run a high risk of mold starting. Also, once the seeds have germinated, I would definitely keep the photoperiod to at least 12 hours.

I am not sure what kind of lamp you have, but fluorescent lighting is the "best" (inexpensive and good color temperature) artificial lighting for growing plants. You can use a CFL bulb for a regular lamp, which is what I assume you have. I use the standard 48inch (122cm) shop lights with T12 fluorescent bulbs. Whatever kind of light you use, you should keep the it very close to your plants, at no more than 6 inches (15cm) away.

I would recommend keeping the seedlings under the light for 12 to 16 hours a day until springtime arrives and then moving them outside in a place that is sheltered from extreme weather.

My experience and opinion of growing VFT from seeds is quite different from Scot's. I have loved every second of my experience. From sowing the seed, to watching it germinate, to seeing those first traps form, to watching the plant grow. I go over to my terrarium and to the pots I have outside with seeds in them at least 6 times a day to look at the seeds and seedlings. Also, when I go away for a few days at a time, it's very cool to come back and look at the babies. Compared to adult plants, they actually grow quite quickly when you aren't looking at them obsessively.

In any case, you shouldn't be scared to attempt to grow some VFT from seed trixie123. Since you already purchased the seed kit and it sounds like you have already sown the seed, you definitely have nothing to lose. It will definitely give you something to do this winter. Then when the spring time rolls around, as Scot said, you should find yourself a place to purchase a healthy adult VFT.

Best of luck with your seeds trixie123!

Thanks for the discussion Scot!
 
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