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Thread: Cultivar question & here's why

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    Cultivar question & here's why

    I thought you could not get the Cultivar from seed... Only buy a leaf pull, or if the plant decides to divide.

    However this site has seeds

    http://www.triffidnurseries.co.uk/br...%20Fly%20Traps

    So something don't add up

    Please advise Noddy

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    mmlr38's Avatar
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    You are correct that most cultivars can't be propagated by seed. However, one can still sell seed from cultivars, right? That's all that's going on there. They're selling seed resulting from self pollinating cultivars.

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    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    By the widest definition, cultivars are defined by their appearance - therefore seed-grown plants that match a cultivar's description are included. But different schools of thoughts on it exist; I believe that, among some genera, the generally accepted rules are less relaxed.
    I think there's another classification (maybe "named varieties?") that strictly refers to the original plant and clones. I don't remember which though.
    ~Joe

    PS - Er, maybe not? mmlr38 might know better than me - I find taxonomy endlessly confusing. Generally, seed resulting from a cultivar crossed on itself has the suffix "F2" - the two denoting the second generation of selfing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seedjar View Post
    By the widest definition, cultivars are defined by their appearance - therefore seed-grown plants that match a cultivar's description are included. But different schools of thoughts on it exist;
    Though I didn't say it in my post, I believe you are correct seedjar in that any plant that matches a cultivar's description is, in fact, the cultivar. I personally believe that the cultivar system is flawed for this reason. However, if you read the ICPS entries for all of the Dionaea cultivars (since this is posted in the Dionaea forum I assumed that's what we were talking about) they nearly all explicitly state propagation should be done vegetatively only. The only clone I can think of that's the exception is Dionaea 'Red Burgundy'.

    These two contradictory facts (vegetative propagation only vs. any plant that matches the cultivar description) make the cultivar system even more convoluted. In the case of Dionaea, since they are so easy to propagate vegetatively and in tissue culture, I believe that the only plants that should be circulated under a cultivar name are exact clones of the original plant that was registered. I've still not heard from any reputable source whether or not this is the "correct" way of doing things, but it seems to me to be the only way that makes sense given that any particular plant can exhibit different characteristics from year to year or even at different points during the growing season. My thought is that the process of officially registering a cultivated variety is sufficiently laborious that people will probably have a very good idea of the growth characteristics before they even attempt to register the plant.

    Anyway...coming down off my soap box now...

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    I just thought that it's a bit miss leading if at the end you spend a good couple of years getting your plant up to find that it's not going to be what you first bought by seed.

    That's my point...

    Noddy

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    mmlr38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    I just thought that it's a bit miss leading if at the end you spend a good couple of years getting your plant up to find that it's not going to be what you first bought by seed.

    That's my point...

    Noddy
    And I think your point is a good one Noddy. I think it's false advertising in a way. They should make it clearer that you're not guaranteed to get a plant that's like the parent plants, as most people are hoping to get.

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    Will the young plants of any particular cultivar be that particular cultivar if the parent plant is self pollinated ? Has anyone here tried this ? What were the results ?

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    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Will the young plants of any particular cultivar be that particular cultivar if the parent plant is self pollinated ? Has anyone here tried this ? What were the results ?
    No, not necessarily. While under the cultivar definition of matching appearance, some might be able to be included as a cultivar, but most would display a variety of traits that would not match the cultivar description.

    Since, I believe, that common practice prior to registering a cultivar is to propagate it (presumably by vegetative methods, or else it wouldn't make any sense) and distribute some to various growers in various locations to see if the exceptional traits continue under other conditions, so having a non-vegetative-ly propagated cultivar would render this practice unnecessary; since whatever trait the original grower thought was exceptional could be based on something that is conditional and that could be reproduced by another plant elsewhere. I suppose (and this might be a reach) but if this practice of non-vegetative-ly reproduced cultivars is common practice and continues, couldn't someone just describe a plant that doesn't really exist and then seek it out later?

    Personally, I think the whole cultivar issue (especially with regard to Dionaea) is ludicrous. In my opinion, no plant should bear the cultivar name and status unless it is a direct vegetative propagation from the originally described plant. With Dionaea cultivars that are described mostly (if not all) on exceptionally large trap size one can see how problematic the lackluster description can be when trap size is so variable to begin with.

    That is exactly why I never got into the whole Dionaea 'B-52', Dionaea 'Big Mouth', and Dionaea 'Big Mama Jama', etc. etc. (ad nauseum) collection debacle. There really no legitimate way to prove any of the (sized based) Dionaea cultivars, outside of a few notable, well described exceptions or you got a vegetative-ly reproduced plant from the cultivar describer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmlr38 View Post
    The only clone I can think of that's the exception is Dionaea 'Red Burgundy'.
    The only other described description I can think of is Sarracenia 'Hurricane Creek White'. Any plant from this population or reproduced from Sarracenia leucophylla from the population and display the characteristics is considered to be a cultivar of that name; specifically stated: In order to maintain this cultivar’s unique hardiness, color, and size characters, do not attach the cultivar name to any seedlings that do not show the large white pitchers of this Sarracenia leucophylla cultivar.

    xvart.

    edit: I recall having a few rants about Dionaea cultivars in the past, so I went back to search for them and found a couple good threads surrounding this topic:
    Where in the bog is the "B-52"
    I Can't Believe I'm About To Ask This
    Last edited by xvart; 01-05-2010 at 08:45 PM. Reason: added links
    "The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."

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