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Help and advice for VFT set up

Hi all

I have been reading this forum for several weeks now, and have enjoyed reading all your posts and have tried to learn what I can!

I am having some trouble with my plants though.
The set up you see in the picture below is contained on a shelf on my bookcase.
My plants have been there for a few weeks now, however the VFT is turning yellow to black, and my sundews have not got any dew.

They are potted in 6in pots in the correct soil mix, and they are watered with rain water only.
The lighting is provided by 2x 24W T5 Sunblaster lights, which are less than 6 inches above the plants.

The problems I can think of are:
1) Not enough light, as I have no reflectors on the light fittings, which I guess means I am losing a lot of potential light.
2) Poor air circulation. Can this be fixed with something as simple as a fan blowing into the area?

Thanks for any help and advice you can give, I would appreciate it, as I hope to successfully grow these plants!
Let me know if any more images would help.

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Aza,

I'm not making any promises that I know what's going on, but here are a few thoughts/observations (I grow my VFTs outside, so lighting is never an issue for me):

1. Did you just repot your plants before placing them in the new environment? That's often a reason for losing dew on a sundew and a few leaves on a VFT.
2. Is it just the oldest traps on your VFT that are dying off? Looks like that might be the issue from the photo. Older leaves are always dying off on my plants. It also looks like the obviously yellow/black trap is physically damaged as well. That could potentially be the cause.
3. Might be too much light (another reason for sundew becoming sundewless). The yellow/black trap on your VFT is also the tallest, i.e. closest to the light (although I see one of the more prostrate traps yellow as well, although that also looks like an older trap).
4. Most of the traps on your VFT look fine, and I see (I think) dew on the seedling D. binata in the VFT pot.

How long have the plants been in their new home? They may just need to settle in a bit.
 
Hi Jay
Thanks for your response.

1. Yes I repotted the sundews. I also repotted the VFT, however I removed it from the pot complete and just put it into a bigger pot, filling the rest of the space with new soil mix. So would that count as a full repot?
2. In the VFT pot there is one larger plant and one smaller one. The larger one seems to be completely turning yellow and with no new growth. The small plant seems to be better.
3. I'm not sure it's too much light based on my research with indoor lighting, I dont really know though as I am inexperienced!
4. Yes there is dew on the seedling D.binata.

So maybe I just need to be a bit more patient and let them settle in some more, they have only been there for a few weeks so far.
Just a bit worrying that the larger VFT seems to be going all yellow with no new growth, and yet the smaller one in the pot is doing better, but all under the same conditions!
I hope to get the lighting just right, and still a bit unsure as to whether I need to use a fan for better air circulation.
I may even be over watering them a little? I will also try letting them rest a little before topping up the water in the tray.
Thanks
 
Hi Aza,
welcome to the forum!
you are right that you have a few problems..but the fixes are very easy:

Problem 1:
1) Not enough light, as I have no reflectors on the light fittings, which I guess means I am losing a lot of potential light.

You are right, they arent getting enough light.
VFT's need a LOT of light.

Solution:
VFT's should never be grown indoors..they do a million times better outdoors..
for new and inexperienced growers especially, growing them outdoors will almost certainty guarantee success, and growing them indoors will almost certainty guarantee failure: the plants will die.

your VFTs need to be outside, in full sunlight, in as much direct sun as you can possibly give them.
in a tray of pure water (rain, distilled or RO water) at all times.

Problem 2:
2) Poor air circulation. Can this be fixed with something as simple as a fan blowing into the area?

there is a much better fix than using a fan:

Solution:
VFT's should never be grown indoors..they do a million times better outdoors..
for new and inexperienced growers especially, growing them outdoors will almost certainty guarantee success, and growing them indoors will almost certainty guarantee failure: the plants will die.

your VFTs need to be outside, in full sunlight, in as much direct sun as you can possibly give them.
in a tray of pure water (rain, distilled or RO water) at all times.
air circulation outside is a non-issue..the air circulates very nicely.

Doing that one thing will solve all your problems..
you need to get them out of that terrarium, its very bad for them..
for more details about that, please check out my page here:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/CP/page2.html

Scot
 
Thanks Scot, unfortunately I do not have a garden :(
Through my research I have seen people have quite a lot of success growing indoors under lights, hopefully some experienced indoor growers will chip in :)
 
garden? who said anything about a garden? ;)
all you need is a place to sit a pot or two in the sun..
no garden necessary.

Through my research I have seen people have quite a lot of success growing indoors under lights, hopefully some experienced indoor growers will chip in :)

actually no, you haven't seen that..
lots of people try it..the plants look fine for about 3 months, so they say "SEE! it can be done! I have owned my VFT for 5 weeks now, and its doing great indoors! so there!"! ;) Those same people are mysteriously quiet after a year or so..

VFTs can be grown indoors *for a short time*..maybe 6 months at best.
but they require a winter dormancy, and to *go* dormant they require a period of gradually declining photoperiod, and declining temperature,
for several months...outdoors, that period is called "summer and autumn"..it is virtually impossible to replicate in a terrarium..
which is why 99% of VFT's grown in a terrarium will be dead within a year..maybe 2 years max.

Before someone brings it up, I will mention Barry Rice...a well known CP hobbiest who has written books on CP's, and who it is *said* grows VFTs indoors successfully..what people often leave out is that he only grows them indoors for part of the year!
he puts them outdoors for part of the year so they can go dormant..

You can not grow VFT's in a terrarium indoors long-term..
you just cant..its just biology, and you cant fight it.
if you try, your plants will die.
sorry, but its just a fact of life.

if you want your VFTs to live longer than a year, pot them up and get them outside..
this is the perfect time of year to do it.
then let us know where your live, (just city and state is fine) and your native climate will dictate that you have to do with them in the fall..

Scot
 
Thanks Scot :)
I'm in the UK.
I was planning on putting the VFTs outdoors for dormancy in my parents garden.
Being in their garden during dormancy wouldnt be an issue, but during the growing months I really want to be able to view them on a daily basis, which I can only do at home.

Looks like maybe VFT are not for me then, I suppose I better get back to researching what WILL work indoors :)
 
Uk?? dude, you have no idea how lucky you are!
you can grow VFT's and Sarracenia outdoors, 24/7/365, and never have to worry in the least about winter dormancy! :)
im so jealous..
all that stuff I wrote in the link (to my webpage, page 2) about the "Fridge method" simply doesn't apply to you,
because your winters are perfect for just leaving them outside all winter long..

now you *really* get those VFT's outdoors! because you have an awesome climate for growing them..

you dont live with your parents? are you at college?
hmm..in that case, that's tricky..colleges aren't the best place for an outdoor CP collection.
well, someday you will have your own place and can try VFT's and Sarrs then..
meanwhile, keep the two VFT's you have, see how they do, but yeah, I would concentrate on more
"indoor friendly" species for now..Nepenthes are an indoor favorite.

Scot
 
I do have my own place, along with a wife and 2 children, not at college anymore ;)
Trouble is I dont have the garden...I think I may have to donate the VFTs to my parent's garden.
Shame really as I was hoping to get my set up to work, cant have it all though I suppose!
 
  • #10
I do have my own place, along with a wife and 2 children, not at college anymore ;)
Trouble is I dont have the garden...I think I may have to donate the VFTs to my parent's garden.
Shame really as I was hoping to get my set up to work, cant have it all though I suppose!

ah! ok..now I understand! ;)
im still confused though about why you think you need "a garden"..
(perhaps you are using "garden" in an English sense? lost in translation perhaps?)
You dont have *any* suitable outdoor space? a deck? a patio? the edge of the driveway?
or do you live in an apartment with no outdoor space of your own?

Scot
 
  • #11
Sorry yeah must be lost in translation...I have no outdoor space for my plants :(
 
  • #12
It seems to me your plants might be too close to the lights. T5s can run pretty hot. Stick a thermometer in there at the top of the pot level and report back. I grow flytraps and Drosera indoors under T8s all year round. There are to camps of thought: those that say you can't grow these plants indoors and those that do.


Here's my Hosford Bog, Florida Dionaea muscipula
IMGP5877.jpg

IMGP5875.jpg

Here it is under lights (about 4-5 inches away). Next to it is a cup of D. regia and D. glabripes cuttings.
 
  • #13
Thanks for replying :)
The lights are just warm to the touch, not hot at all.
The top of the pot is 5 inches away from the light.
On the back row I have another VFT which is only 3 inches away from the light, but that is not suffering from the yellowing.
Could it just be natural dying of the leaves?
What about air circulation? Does it pose a problem for you?
 
  • #14
Just to chime in, I have agree with Scot. The problem with growing VFTs inside falls under the lighting and achieving a suitable ease into dormancy. As Scot said, high lighting is a must, and outdoors sunlight is really what they thrive in. However, dormancy is an even bigger issue why it's so hard to grow VFTs inside. If they miss dormancy/ aren't eased into dormancy do to decreasing temperatures and photoperiod, they tend not to do so hot the following year. If they do survive, they lose so much energy and are so weak they generally won't make it through the following season or two. If you must grow them inside, it would be a smart idea to get a timer for your lighter so that you can adjust how much hours of light a day they get when late Fall rolls around. Finding a way to let air in from outside or some other way to notify them of the changing seasons is also super important. I know I'm reiterating a lot of what Scot already touched on, but I definitely feel that, although not necessarily impossible (at least in the short run), growing VFTs inside will be difficult and hopefully some of this might help a bit. I also recommend high humidity and damp soil at all times. Although humidity isn't crucial (I grow mine outside year-round in dry California) it will certainly help, at least in the summer and autumn.
 
  • #15
There was discussion on this on the ICPS listserv. It seems that seasonal light cues are more important for dormancy then colder temperatures. That's not to say colder temperatures are not a factor however it is possible to grow Dionaea indoors long term under lights. Ask John Brittnacher, seed bank manager for the ICPS who grows his under lights.

I visited Ivan Snyder yesterday. Here is his setup which consists of a wire bookself, two 4 ft shoplight fixtures and a timer. That's it.
IMGP5880copy.jpg


Here's his pot of Hosford Bog, FL Venus Flytraps. He's been growing those under lights since 2001. Note the flower stalks.
IMGP5882copy.jpg


And since you can't grow Sarracenia under lights either, here is his Crestview, FL Sarracenia purpurea ssp venosa var burkii, grown under lights since the late 90s
IMGP5894copy.jpg


Here they are from 2-3 years ago (I'd have to look up the exact date), note the flower on the Sarracenia:
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P8220053.jpg


Here they are in March 2005, you can just make out the flytraps to the right of the Cephalotus in the second photo (photos by Forbes Conrad)
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Mighty unhealthy looking, eh?

Air circulation is not a problem with wire shelves.

If it is only one or two and the oldest leaves turning black it's probably normal aging.

The first flytrap I had I grew in a bottle terrarium on a north facing windowsill for some 10-12 years. It would flower in the spring. It might still be alive today if my parents had watered it when I moved away for graduate school.

There was a member here a few years ago that didn't want to grow his VFTs outdoors because they would get stolen. Many of the "outdoors only" crowd piled on him until have gave in and put them outdoors. Most of the plants were promptly stolen. I saw no words of apologies or offers to replace the plants from the "outdoors crowd".
 
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  • #16
Thanks for the info, very interesting!
It seems like this is one of those issues that has always (and will always) have people on both sides of the fence.
You may have even made me reconsider about putting a fly trap on my north facing window sill, which is brightly lit all day, but obviously not directly :)
 
  • #17
There was discussion on this on the ICPS listserv. It seems that seasonal light cues are more important for dormancy then colder temperatures. That's not to say colder temperatures are not a factor however it is possible to grow Dionaea indoors long term under lights. Ask John Brittnacher, seed bank manager for the ICPS who grows his under lights.

yes, but the dormancy is the tricky bit..
perhaps long-time experienced growers can do it, but for newbies its MUCH easier to just keep them outdoors..
you still have to actually *provide* dormancy if you are going to grow them indoors..
which is much more difficult indoors than outdoors..
I have always said that..
I have also always said "you cant grow them indoors long term WITHOUT a dormancy"..like keeping them in a terrarium
without providing decreased photoperiod and decreased temps in the fall and winter.
It is still true you cant grow them indoors if you don't provide a proper dormancy..
thats the part I have always fought against..

You mentioned dormancy in more detail in 2009, but you glossed over it this time:

Barry Rice, Ivan Snyder and TerraForums member Laura all grow their Dionaea under fixtures as described above (Barry uses 6 tubes). Dormancy is handled by moving the plants outdoors mid autumn, moving them to a windowsill and/or keeping the room unheated.

There was discussion on this on the ICPS listserv. It seems that seasonal light cues are more important for dormancy then colder temperatures.

that has never been proven..
its a convenient theory for those who want to try to grow indoors, since controlling light is easier than controlling temp..
but there is no evidence that its true..
and I have evidence that cold temps are absolutely required, and decreased photoperiod alone, without decreased temps as well, will *not* result in proper dormancy..
(my bonsai tree example..I can look it up again if anyone wants to read it)

Scot
 
  • #18
You may have even made me reconsider about putting a fly trap on my north facing window sill, which is brightly lit all day, but obviously not directly :)

But you *want* directly! ;)
North facing window would be the worst of the four possible choices..
South would be best (the most direct sunlight)
East and West would be 2nd best. (direct light morning or evening)
North would be worst..not nearly enough light.

Scot
 
  • #19
Of course temperate plants need winter dormancy and it appears people need to pay attention to these requirements in cultivation. Whatever works best for you. I've always grown them outside in NC. However, someone in Hawaii, I'm sure different than someone in Anchorage, AK. VFT's and Sarracenia need dormancy as adult flowering plants to be healthy regardless of how you allow them to rest unless I've missed something. You can grow them as seedlings under lights for a couple of years under a vigorous light regime-I've had them get big quick under these scenarios. As older plants, rest helps grow vigorous plants in my experience. Photoperiod is important too given NCs last winter in the 60s. I would expect both photoperiod and temps are important regardless, especially to a new grower.

If someone were to trade or buy a new vft in a small tiny pot for their porch, they should know, it will die in a typical NC winter due to lack of surface area in the pot. Some far north temperate or boreal carnivore growers make great use of basements and refrigerators.
 
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  • #20
This thread interests me. I'm moving to an apartment sometime soon and I don't have any secure outdoor space for my large VFT pots.

I live in North Texas and I currently keep my flytraps outdoors in the full sun all year long without too much fuss. Winters are very mild so they usually have an easy dormancy. My biggest worry is how the plants will react when I move them indoors on a sunny apartment window (maybe 4.5 hours of direct light at best) that will be air-conditioned. It will be a huge shift from having about 6 to 7 hours of direct outdoor light in 90 degree weather. Will that throw them off their growth cycle?

My plan is to try and grow them indoors and then find somewhere to move them outside during the short autumn period when the outside and inside tempertatures are roughly the same and the summer AC period finally ends.

At this point, I'm tempted to try and trade them for more indoor friendly plants because I really don't want to mess with grow lights. I hope I don't have to do that since they're my favorite carnivorous plant.
 
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