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Thread: Venus-flytrap

  1. #49
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    wow..this thread is getting really scary!
    (the amazing ignorance is really scary..)
    and I have come to the conclusion that its really pointless for anyone, on either side, to even debate this topic at all..
    because both side believe they are right, and that view will NEVER be changed!
    So this will be my last post on this topic, but before I go, I have one more thing to say..

    God doesent WANT you to be stupid!!
    the main thing that bothers me about believing in literal creationism, is that in order to believe in it at all you have to choose to IGNORE tons of valid science!! "anything that goes against my views I must just ignore, or dismiss.."
    thats really a terrible attitude..
    to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating! and dont wish to learn..
    to say that 'lots of different creatures exist today, and also exist in the fossil record, therefore the fossil record is meaningless and proves nothing" indicates you are choosing to IGNORE that the fossil record, going way back to the beginnings of life, shows primitive fossils ONLY ! going back to the devonian, you have ONLY tribolites and simple organisms in those records! you dont have trilobites and dinosaurs together..ever..
    you dont have crinoids and hominid fossils together..ever.
    up to a certain point, you have no birds at all..suddenly you do have birds in the fossil record..up to a certain point you have no human fossils, you only have creatures that look like humans, but more primitive..and they keep getting more and more like modern humans as you go forward in time until suddenly..modern humans! God has made it SOOOOO clear!
    in order to explain that away, your only solution is to ignore it..basically God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it, because of a book that HUMANS wrote..
    so to literally believe in the Bible as written, you have to IGNORE what your God has done with the Earth..I dont think God would appreciate you keeping yourself ignorant in his name!

    personally I believe in God AND evolution..because its utterly obvious both exist. there is really no reasonable way to dismiss the fossil record and what it shows us without admitting evolution is real...I think God is obviously and clearly showing us what the truth is..only the willfully ignorant ignore what he is showing us. I consider that kind of willfull ignorance blasphemy. Keeping yourself ignorant, on purpose, ignoring science, is an insult to God! Science shows us how HIS world works! Science unlocks the keys to how HE works!
    Science helps us understand him better!
    Ignoring that goes against everything He wants from us..He is not amused..

    Scot

  2. #50

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    Hi All,

    I believe science and religion -- all religions -- must exist side by side but their fields of inquiry are so vastly different and so utterly unrelated that whenever they are intermingled both end up loosing. Creationism begins with an absolute. It says this is HOW it happened. Now, the Bible is not interested in science, in questioning. It is interested in providing a narrative that engenders and supports BELIEF. Many humans need belief to survive. It orders and directs their lives. It is a rest stop and a comfort. It makes sense of everyday reality and larger mysteries. Belief demands an absolute as it is a destination and not a journey. That is the worldview many people need and it works well for them. The sad thing is that some of these people feel the need to force their worldview on everyone as a way of proving to themselves, albeit unconsciously, that their belief and its structure are physically real.
    Science does not ever begin with an absolute. It always starts with a question. If it is very good and very lucky (a little chance) it might one day arrive at an absolute, for, unlike religion, science is not a destination but a journey. The sense of belief that science requires is the same human experience supporting all the world religions but instead of directing it to a SUPER (outside of) natural reality, the scientist keeps his or her belief on a human scale and directs it towards working to find out where the questions lead.
    I do not "believe" in gods as, personally, I reject the idea of so human an attribute as "intelligence" being the defining aspect of all creation. That has always seemed to me as a very narcissistic projection by humanity. The quality of our own behavior we admire most we project out into the universe and personify it as a GOD. We are such selfish creatures that I distrust anything we do or create as TRUTH that even appears to be self-serving. We are at our most dangerous as a species whenever we arm ourselves with absolutes. I believe thinking saves us. So I try to keep on thinking.

    Bobby

  3. #51

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    Scotty,

    You are right when you said this thread is kinda pointless, because nobody's gonna change their mind.
    Here's my refutation of what you said though.
    Quote
    all you have to choose to IGNORE tons of valid science[/QUOTE] We all have the same facts. It is how we interpret them that makes the different views. We have the same facts about the sun, moon and even the tiniest cell's flagellum (which you ignored by the way [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img] ). It is our presuppositions as to how the world was made that affects how we interpret these facts.
    Quote
    to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating! and dont wish to learn..[/QUOTE]
    Wow!! So C-14 dating is accurate? Let me give you known tests that are really quite stupid.

    1)Living clams dated at 2300 years old (hehehe)
    2) Mortar from an english castle dated at 7370 years old.
    3) A skull was found that dated to 25 million years ago. (before primates were supposed to exist). Testing it several more times, they came up with dates ranging from 290,000 years to 221 million years!! Extremely accurate system, don't you think??
    4) Fresh seal skins dated at 1300 years old. (There's no way a seal can live that long [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] )
    5)Fresh tree roots fossilized by an intense electrical charge caused by a falling power line were dated millions of years ago. How did evolutionists explain this away? They said, because there was heat involved in the fossilization process, the dating was thrown off. Really? How about all those volcanic rocks that are routinely dated. Everbody knows those don't get hot at all!!! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img]

    Explain these away! Or who is it that
    Quote
    dont wish to learn[/QUOTE]

    To go on to the fossil record. I believe that there was a worldwide flood in the days of Noah, and God only saved him and his family. The creatures at the bottom of the ocean would be buried first (trilobites etc.) Those that could swim faster, got buried next (fish), those that were on shore, but slow got buried next (salamanders), then those that could run faster, away from the flood, small mammals, then birds and large mammals. You see how using the same facts I can get a totally different conclusion? Now I can say that
    Quote
    God has made it SOOOOO clear!
    in order to explain that away, your only solution is to ignore it..basically God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it,[/QUOTE] Noah's flood is in the Bible too ya know!
    On to the next point.
    Quote
    book that HUMANS wrote[/QUOTE]
    The Bible is God's Word. He spoke it through men such as Moses, Jeremiah, Paul and others, but they were just tools in the hand of a mighty God, giving His creation a way to be with Him for eternity.

    Quote
    Keeping yourself ignorant, on purpose, ignoring science, is an insult to God! [/QUOTE]
    Exactly. He created your mind so that you could think and reason. He is a reasonable God. All that He does and makes is logical and orderly.
    Quote
    Science helps us understand him better![/QUOTE]
    Excellent observation. His whole creation cries out of a God whose character can be shown through his provision for every need of his creatures. There is no way that all the things on this earth (composition of the atmosphere, pressure, gravity, temperature and all the other countless things that make this planet habitable and all the others not, could be made by chance. If just one of those things was off, the planet would be uninhabitable.

    Let me ask you this Scotty,

    Where did the first life on earth come from?
    Remember....
    Quote
    Ignoring that goes against everything He wants from us[/QUOTE]

    Respectfully,
    SF

  4. #52

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    biggun110,

    May I ask you a question? you said
    Quote
    Science does not ever begin with an absolute.
    [/QUOTE]

    So, what is the starting point of science? Logic demands a starting premise, so what is your premise

    SF

  5. #53

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    God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it, because of a book that HUMANS wrote..
    so to literally believe in the Bible as written, you have to IGNORE what your God has done with the Earth[/QUOTE]

    Well first of all God wrote the Bible. Yes he used people to physically write it but the words are his. God told them what to write. I'm sorry you believe humans made up everything in the Bible. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img]

    Quote
    to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating![/QUOTE]

    Actually i do know about carbon dating. It measures the decay of the radioactive isotope carbon-14. Scientists use it to measure the age of specimens from 500-50,000 years old. It is thought to decay at a constant rate but scientists really have no idea. In the last fifty years it has decayed constantly but who knows what may happen when it gets to be 500 or 1000 years old. It may decay at a much faster rate thus making it seem older than it really is. This dating method just has not been around long enough to prove it.

    Quote
    (the amazing ignorance is really scary..)...God doesent WANT you to be stupid!![/QUOTE]


    I am a little angry that you call me stupid and ignorant because i don't believe what you believe. I was merely discussing with you, not attacking your beliefs but then you felt the need to attack mine. And i think that stinks. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img]

    Quote
    ..He is not amused..[/QUOTE]

    I don't know who you think you are to state what God thinks and feels.


    -buckeye

  6. #54
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote (buckeye @ July 21 2003,11:30)
    Quote
    I don't know who you think you are to state what God thinks and feels.


    -buckeye[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
    Who are you to do the same?
    you claim to know that God wrote the bible..
    you dont know that.
    you are speaking FOR God, who are you to do that??

    Scot

  7. #55

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    Angry

    I do not mean to but back in...What is the point of arguing over religion? This topic should stop or be locked before it gets out of hand! Know one is going to change their thoughts or beliefs. Respect others opinions - If they do not agree O'well. That is all the posting for me on this subject, Thank You.

    Travis
    \"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.\"
    -- Oscar Wilde

    http://www.nasarracenia.org/

  8. #56
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    post deleted..its just not worth it..
    Scot

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