What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Venus-flytrap

  • Thread starter eplants02
  • Start date
  • #41
Hi Snowy,

I meant all questions in relation to the evolution/creation of life on Earth -- those math answers are not covered by Darwin or Christ. (Most likely the Devil
tounge.gif
wow.gif
alien.gif
.)
I think chance is the great CREATOR in life. In fact I think "god" and "gods" are simply the personification of chance. Have you never had an incredible day that happened just by chance? Have you never met your soul mate only by chance? Have you never found that special plant just by chance? Have you never found a great deal by chance? I bet your life is full of millions of happy accidents all brought to you by the divine nature of chance. It makes life exciting and all so real. I love it. Scarey? You bet. Lonely? At times. Mysterious? Sometimes. But that is nature and we are but a piece of that wonderfully real and earth bound puzzle.
So you think the Bible seen as history makes it true. Funny, I have always considered poetry to capture truth to a far greater extent than the mere facts and figures of history -- all subject to interpretation and error. Poetry seeks to capture the essence of reality -- it's Platonic nature. Is not that the spine of all religions: to present the meaning of life?

Bobby
 
  • #42
Hi Capslock,

You wrote: <Suprisingly lucid analysis from biggun110>.

LOL. Gee, I try not to sound like the raving lunatic that I am on here. I must not be doing a good job if a moment of lucidity from me is "surprising".
tounge.gif
rolleyes.gif
alien.gif
.

Bobby
 
  • #43
I just recently devoted my life to Christ and am a strong Christian. I belive in the thrid day that God himself created all plants including, the topic plant, the venus flytrap. Thats one more tally for Christianity.
Kevin
 
  • #44
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scottychaos @ July 20 2003,6:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SnowyFalcon @ July 20 2003,7:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, of course not.  You started in Fort Lauderdale and head south, Savanna is north.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Exactly,
you just proved why your moon and Sun arguements are invalid.
You were never in Savannah to begin with.
So starting nowhere NEAR Savannah means you cant interpolate backwards and arrive at the conclusion that you WERE in Savannah 7 hours ago simply because you are traveling away from it right now..

The moon was never next to the Earth to begin with,
The Sun was never next to the Earth to begin with..

well that was easy!
wink.gif
biggrin.gif

2 myths down, 98 to go..

(the remaining 98 are just as easy..)

Scot[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I know this won't make me popular, here I go:
"The Sun was never next to the Earth to begin with..."
Well, if the sun was never near the Earth, where would the light on Earth have come from quintillions of years ago? There is no life without the sun.

How could life have possibly started by chance?

sorta off topic here.

One creation scientist has one theory about how dionosoars came into 'existence'. All herpers know that reptiles NEVER stop growing throughout their entire life. they grow slowly all of their life, and never stop. There was a large layer of water above the atmosphere, which blocked most harmful lights, and made the enviroment better. all living things lived longer then, humans lived a thousand years or more. Same with reptiles! They would live over a thousand years, never stopping growth. This is why there were such huge reptiles. After the flood of noah, nothing lived as long. reptiles didn't grow huge anymore. This might prove invalid of 'the evolition of dinosaurs' and extinction of them wrong.
smile.gif

Just my 2 cents
smile.gif

-Spec
 
  • #45
LOL Bobby! I meant suprising to find anywhere these days. I didn't mean you weren't always lucid!
biggrin.gif


And my creationist friends here, you're going to have to explain all the millions of years old fossils that form a nice tree of advancing complexity in the development of life. (Heck, for that matter, you're going to need to explain anything being millions of years old&#33
wink.gif
If your God didn't make an evolving cycle of life on earth, He certainly made it look like He did.

Capslock
 
  • #46
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Capslock @ July 20 2003,9:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And my creationist friends here, you're going to have to explain all the millions of years old fossils that form a nice tree of advancing complexity in the development of life. (Heck, for that matter, you're going to need to explain anything being millions of years old&#33
wink.gif
If your God didn't make an evolving cycle of life on earth, He certainly made it look like He did.

Capslock[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Many people think fossils formed at the Great Flood. I dimly remember hearing about petrified trees being found at the bottom of mt. saint helens, in washington, USA. In the 1980s, when it eropted (sp?), 1/3 of the entire volcano was blown off of the mountain, into a lake. Trees on the chunk of mountain were buried, and re-discovered 16 years later! They looked like thousand year old petrified trees. But, in fact, it had formed in minutes! Maybe many creatures were buried by big mud blobs int he flood? I have no proof of this however, so think what you like
smile.gif

Many people think that God created the earth and universe, and helped evolution along. This might be possible.
smile.gif

Peace
biggrin.gif

-Spec

I don't see why several people seem to be taking this discussion offensivly. It is just a discussion of evolution vs creation, there is no winner, people should walk away and believe their beliefs, un-offended. Not in a bad mood, offended.
smile.gif
 
  • #47
I agree Spec. We should be able to discuss this topic openly without judgement of eachother. We're all friends here.

Capslock
 
  • #48
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just recently devoted my life to Christ and am a strong Christian. I belive in the thrid day that God himself created all plants including, the topic plant, the venus flytrap. Thats one more tally for Christianity.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This is really good to hear Kevin!!
biggrin.gif



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">read it carefully and note he gives NO actual evidence to support his viewpoint!! none whatsoever..
his arguement is basically "the eye could not evolve by chance, because I say so"
also a lot of irrelevant drivel that has noting to do with the eye at all, like his meaningless scrabble excercise..

hardly convincing science..[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Scot-

I sort of read through some of the evolution theories on the eyes and i could make the same argument about them.  There's a lot of explanations on the eye but all of the info. on how they formed is pure speculation.  There is absolutely no proof that the eye formed the way the sites described.  

Hardly convincing science...


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And my creationist friends here, you're going to have to explain all the millions of years old fossils that form a nice tree of advancing complexity in the development of life. (Heck, for that matter, you're going to need to explain anything being millions of years old! If your God didn't make an evolving cycle of life on earth, He certainly made it look like He did.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Just because there are different complexities of life found in fossils doesn't mean they all weren't created at the same time and lived at the same time.  Even right now we have huge differences in complexities of life ranging from humans to sea sponges.  And for an explanation on "millions and millions" year old things i have this.  Dating, whether carbon-14 or  potassium-argon, is only a guess.  There's no way to prove that's it's accurate because the system has not been around long enough.  To say that a rock is 1.2 million years old and the system itself has only been around for 50 provides no way to check if the system is correct.


   -buckeye
 
  • #49
wow..this thread is getting really scary!
(the amazing ignorance is really scary..)
and I have come to the conclusion that its really pointless for anyone, on either side, to even debate this topic at all..
because both side believe they are right, and that view will NEVER be changed!
So this will be my last post on this topic, but before I go, I have one more thing to say..

God doesent WANT you to be stupid!!
the main thing that bothers me about believing in literal creationism, is that in order to believe in it at all you have to choose to IGNORE tons of valid science!! "anything that goes against my views I must just ignore, or dismiss.."
thats really a terrible attitude..
to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating! and dont wish to learn..
to say that 'lots of different creatures exist today, and also exist in the fossil record, therefore the fossil record is meaningless and proves nothing" indicates you are choosing to IGNORE that the fossil record, going way back to the beginnings of life, shows primitive fossils ONLY ! going back to the devonian, you have ONLY tribolites and simple organisms in those records! you dont have trilobites and dinosaurs together..ever..
you dont have crinoids and hominid fossils together..ever.
up to a certain point, you have no birds at all..suddenly you do have birds in the fossil record..up to a certain point you have no human fossils, you only have creatures that look like humans, but more primitive..and they keep getting more and more like modern humans as you go forward in time until suddenly..modern humans! God has made it SOOOOO clear!
in order to explain that away, your only solution is to ignore it..basically God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it, because of a book that HUMANS wrote..
so to literally believe in the Bible as written, you have to IGNORE what your God has done with the Earth..I dont think God would appreciate you keeping yourself ignorant in his name!

personally I believe in God AND evolution..because its utterly obvious both exist. there is really no reasonable way to dismiss the fossil record and what it shows us without admitting evolution is real...I think God is obviously and clearly showing us what the truth is..only the willfully ignorant ignore what he is showing us. I consider that kind of willfull ignorance blasphemy. Keeping yourself ignorant, on purpose, ignoring science, is an insult to God! Science shows us how HIS world works! Science unlocks the keys to how HE works!
Science helps us understand him better!
Ignoring that goes against everything He wants from us..He is not amused..

Scot
 
  • #50
Hi All,

I believe science and religion -- all religions -- must exist side by side but their fields of inquiry are so vastly different and so utterly unrelated that whenever they are intermingled both end up loosing. Creationism begins with an absolute. It says this is HOW it happened. Now, the Bible is not interested in science, in questioning. It is interested in providing a narrative that engenders and supports BELIEF. Many humans need belief to survive. It orders and directs their lives. It is a rest stop and a comfort. It makes sense of everyday reality and larger mysteries. Belief demands an absolute as it is a destination and not a journey. That is the worldview many people need and it works well for them. The sad thing is that some of these people feel the need to force their worldview on everyone as a way of proving to themselves, albeit unconsciously, that their belief and its structure are physically real.
Science does not ever begin with an absolute. It always starts with a question. If it is very good and very lucky (a little chance) it might one day arrive at an absolute, for, unlike religion, science is not a destination but a journey. The sense of belief that science requires is the same human experience supporting all the world religions but instead of directing it to a SUPER (outside of) natural reality, the scientist keeps his or her belief on a human scale and directs it towards working to find out where the questions lead.
I do not "believe" in gods as, personally, I reject the idea of so human an attribute as "intelligence" being the defining aspect of all creation. That has always seemed to me as a very narcissistic projection by humanity. The quality of our own behavior we admire most we project out into the universe and personify it as a GOD. We are such selfish creatures that I distrust anything we do or create as TRUTH that even appears to be self-serving. We are at our most dangerous as a species whenever we arm ourselves with absolutes. I believe thinking saves us. So I try to keep on thinking.

Bobby
 
  • #51
Scotty,

  You are right when you said this thread is kinda pointless, because nobody's gonna change their mind.  
Here's my refutation of what you said though.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">all you have to choose to IGNORE tons of valid science[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>  We all have the same facts.  It is how we interpret them that makes the different views.  We have the same facts about the sun, moon and even the tiniest cell's flagellum (which you ignored by the way
tounge.gif
).  It is our presuppositions as to how the world was made that affects how we interpret these facts.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating! and dont wish to learn..[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Wow!! So C-14 dating is accurate?  Let me give you known tests that are really quite stupid.

1)Living clams dated at 2300 years old (hehehe)
2) Mortar from an english castle dated at 7370 years old.
3) A skull was found that dated to 25 million years ago. (before primates were supposed to exist). Testing it several more times, they came up with dates ranging from 290,000 years to 221 million years!! Extremely accurate system, don't you think??
4) Fresh seal skins dated at 1300 years old. (There's no way a seal can live that long
wink.gif
)
5)Fresh tree roots fossilized by an intense electrical charge caused by a falling power line were dated millions of years ago. How did evolutionists explain this away? They said, because there was heat involved in the fossilization process, the dating was thrown off. Really? How about all those volcanic rocks that are routinely dated. Everbody knows those don't get hot at all!!!
confused.gif


Explain these away!  Or who is it that </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">dont wish to learn[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

To go on to the fossil record.  I believe that there was a worldwide flood in the days of Noah, and God only saved him and his family.  The creatures at the bottom of the ocean would be buried first (trilobites etc.) Those that could swim faster, got buried next (fish), those that were on shore, but slow got buried next (salamanders), then those that could run faster, away from the flood, small mammals, then birds and large mammals.  You see how using the same facts I can get a totally different conclusion?  Now I can say that </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God has made it SOOOOO clear!
in order to explain that away, your only solution is to ignore it..basically God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it,[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Noah's flood is in the Bible too ya know!  
On to the next point.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">book that HUMANS wrote[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The Bible is God's Word.  He spoke it through men such as Moses, Jeremiah, Paul and others, but they were just tools in the hand of a mighty God, giving His creation a way to be with Him for eternity.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Keeping yourself ignorant, on purpose, ignoring science, is an insult to God! [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Exactly.  He created your mind so that you could think and reason.  He is a reasonable God.  All that He does and makes is logical and orderly.  
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Science helps us understand him better![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Excellent observation. His whole creation cries out of a God whose character can be shown through his provision for every need of his creatures.  There is no way that all the things on this earth (composition of the atmosphere, pressure, gravity, temperature and all the other countless things that make this planet habitable and all the others not, could be made by chance.  If just one of those things was off, the planet would be uninhabitable.

Let me ask you this Scotty,

  Where did the first life on earth come from?
Remember....</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ignoring that goes against everything He wants from us[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Respectfully,
SF
 
  • #52
biggun110,

May I ask you a question? you said </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Science does not ever begin with an absolute.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

So, what is the starting point of science? Logic demands a starting premise, so what is your premise

SF
 
  • #53
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God is clearly laying out the history of the Earth before you, and you are ignoring it, because of a book that HUMANS wrote..
so to literally believe in the Bible as written, you have to IGNORE what your God has done with the Earth[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well first of all God wrote the Bible.  Yes he used people to physically write it but the words are his.  God told them what to write.  I'm sorry you believe humans made up everything in the Bible.
confused.gif


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to dismiss carbon-14 dating as "a guess" because it has only been around 50 years indicates you know NOTHING about carbon-14 dating![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Actually i do know about carbon dating.  It measures the decay of the radioactive isotope carbon-14.  Scientists use it to measure the age of specimens from 500-50,000 years old.  It is thought to decay at a constant rate but scientists really have no idea.  In the last fifty years it has decayed constantly but who knows what may happen when it gets to be 500 or 1000 years old.  It may decay at a much faster rate thus making it seem older than it really is.  This dating method just has not been around long enough to prove it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(the amazing ignorance is really scary..)...God doesent WANT you to be stupid!![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


I am a little angry that you call me stupid and ignorant because i don't believe what you believe.  I was merely discussing with you, not attacking your beliefs but then you felt the need to attack mine.  And i think that stinks.  
sad.gif


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..He is not amused..[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know who you think you are to state what God thinks and feels.


   -buckeye
 
  • #54
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (buckeye @ July 21 2003,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know who you think you are to state what God thinks and feels.


   -buckeye[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Who are you to do the same?
you claim to know that God wrote the bible..
you dont know that.
you are speaking FOR God, who are you to do that??

Scot
 
  • #55
I do not mean to but back in...What is the point of arguing over religion? This topic should stop or be locked before it gets out of hand! Know one is going to change their thoughts or beliefs. Respect others opinions - If they do not agree O'well. That is all the posting for me on this subject, Thank You.

Travis
 
  • #56
post deleted..its just not worth it..
Scot
 
  • #57
Hi SnowyFalcon,

Science begins with a question. A question is neither an absolute nor a mystery. It is idea that starts a journey. Absolutes kill science as they kill questioning and so kill thinking. In questions of belief and faith one needs absolutes as they support those experiences. In science, one needs questioning. This is why I feel the mixing of science and religion ruin both. Each is a way of knowing. Some people only wish to know about belief. Some wish only to know about science. Some wish to know about both. Sadly, most mix the two in an endless battle of one-up-man-ship and we all loose. When science is used as a weapon of morality we are in deep do-do. When religion is used as a mandated and absolute worldview and LAW we are in deep do-do. We must focus on that which allows the most people to live as well as possible, freely, in the here and now. It is all we literally know.

Bobby
 
  • #58
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scottychaos @ July 21 2003,09:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">post deleted..its just not worth it..
Scot[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
NO, dont delete it! we'll have people going around wanting to know why it was deleted!
wink.gif
rolleyes.gif
remember the topic with sundewmatt, and its being deleted? it only caused more harm than good.
keep the topic unlocked! and put your post back on
wink.gif
 
  • #59
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who are you to do the same?
you claim to know that God wrote the bible..
you dont know that.
you are speaking FOR God, who are you to do that??[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This is not the same at all.  I stated something most Christians believe.  I didn't make up God's thoughts like you did.  I don't want to get in a fight with you so i'm done posting here.  Let's just agree that we disagree.


     -buckeye
 
  • #60
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scottychaos @ July 21 2003,08:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (buckeye @ July 21 2003,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know who you think you are to state what God thinks and feels.


   -buckeye[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
1) Who are you to do the same?
2) you claim to know that God wrote the bible..
3) you dont know that.
4) you are speaking FOR God, who are you to do that??

Scot[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
1) He was quoting from the Bible
2) He claims to know that God wrote the Bible, because God TOLD us that.
3) Yes, we DO know that... Don't you know what religion is?
rolleyes.gif

4) I would like for you to point out where he did this. To be honest it was YOU speaking for God... "God is not amused" WHO ARE YOU TO DO THAT???
mad.gif


Peace

Let this topic not become a bloody raging argument, but keep it a discussion.
smile.gif
 
Back
Top