Hmmm...let me see if I can shed some light here.
First let's not look at chromosone counts here, but true visually mutant forms. So all you soap box scientists out there just take a chill pill for the time being. K?
I personally do not consider any large trap form or variable color vft to be a mutant. Some good examples of true mutant vft forms are cup trap, fused tooth, pom-pom, Bart Simpson, etc. YUK! I can't figure out why people are so inclined to feverishly hunt down and grow such rubbish, but as it stands...beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. Of course these mutations may have been induced via tissue culture.
Now then, the original question that opened this thread was "where can one obtain a Dirk Ventham vft"? This vft is not a text book mutant form but rather a large growing typical form with highly prized coloration, (my opinion so back off). Nothing out of the ordinary here except for the color. Giantism is not a result of the introduction of artificial chemical stimulus, but rather a genetic code. Therefor one can self pollinate a large form vft and safely EXPECT some of the resulting offspring to be genetically similar or even identical to the parent plant. I would say at least 40% to 60% of the offspring will be large form. The specific color you're looking for may not appear with this batch of plants so you will have to grow the babies up and either self these or sib cross them. Yes....an investment in time. This is exactly how flower breeders develop their newest plants for their test trials.
Your chances of developing the biggest and best cultivars are enhanced when you perform f2, f3, sib crosses and cross pollinations. Trust me...it works. I have already performed all of these processes on several giant forms in my collection and more than 80% of the offspring are much bigger than the parent plants used. These are the plants I have to keep in the greenhouse because they routinely catch and devour small tree frogs on a regular basis outdoors.
I have hundreds of these frogs around my yard.
Also, if a vft arrives in poor condition it should not take it more than the remainder of THIS growing season to snap out of it. Give the plant a proper growing environment with very fresh soil and a brand new pot. For heaven's sake DO NOT reuse your old pots. Some of the pics of vft that have been posted on these threads are pitiful. Vft are very sensitive to their growing environment. The better the conditions, the better the plant. And a proper dormancy is crucial. *Cultural excellence and cleanliness is everything.
Sure there are many people out there who will say that this is all a bunch of unnecessary drivel. Just plant the bulbs and grow them. Well I've seen many of these collections and unfortunately these people are not as good a grower as they think they are.
We should stop trying so hard to hunt down every one of these personally named vft variants. As Bob mentioned earlier, many of these different clones are the same plant. There are many beautiful plants out there waiting to be married. One of the crosses I made this year was Pink Venus x Big Mouth (or Big Jaws, or whatever the heck it's now called. it has enormous purple-red traps). There are sure to be some fabulous offspring in this batch.
You see....half the fun of growing cp's is working with them as well. It is extremely rewarding to set out with a vision in mind and watch it come to fruition. And it doesn't take that long. If you're growing Sarracenia or Darlingtonia from seed....well....that doesn't happen overnight, right?
Oh just one more thing. How do you get the biggest, best traps on your plants?
Simple. Remove all of the small plantlets that develop on the main bulb. Remove them every year and grow only the main bulb by itself. This is where you get your show stoppers.
Hi Phil and bob Im a beginner grower so Im not very experienced at growing seeds could you tell me step by step how to poolinate flowers by hand?
I was under the impreesion all Dionaea were basically the same, with only a few genes altering growth habit, coloration and size. Is there such a thing as 'double chromosomes?'Originally Posted by [b
Here's the information for G14:
G14 Dirk Venthamís Giant (informally named by Stephen Morely). Possible source - Adrian Slack. Obtained by Graham Sadd in 1995. Distinguishing features - trap colour.
Here are two crosses grown from seed:
Left - G4 Short Petioles x G19 Vertical. Right - G3 Homebase Red x G17 Megatrap.
The ones on the right are fantastic looking plants with deep red interiors which eventually spread to the nectar zone and spines. The centre right plant has very large traps, which could eventually turn into a very large form plant. Again, the centre left plant has very large traps borne on short upright petioles. Nothing worthy of cultiavr status, but an example of the good plants that can be obtained from good original stock.
But Stephen, how could you tell if "true giants" are "mutants" none the less where it is mutated(double chromosomes). From my understanding of meiosis that I learned from 7 grade science(I just promoted to the 9th grade), the paternal side duplicates its its genetic information and its cell organs. Then the cell splits into 2 identical cells. Then it splits again into 4 cells, each with half the genetic code of the original cell. The same goes with the maternal cell. So each seed has a different combination. Now, there are incalculable permutations of genetic codes. Each seed has something different. A mutation is an error in duplication. *One line of genetic code extra, one line of genetic code missing, ect. I think there are too many possibilities of genetic permutations for us to be just guessing what something is made of. I mean I can't just point to this VFT and say, you've got one this genetic code and this genetic code, therefore your traps are pink? It's impossible.
VFT's to offer here===>http://www.phongvft.org
My favorite reason for growing venus flytraps is because they vary so much from one plant to another. Making crosses and pollinating plants hoping that they will make offspring that are more vigorous or something special makes growing these guys worth every single penny.
But I still think it is worthwhile to collect named plants and cultivars, I have to agree that a lot of them are typicals named just because and are just as vigorous as any other vft. But there are some that just plain amaze me, and those are the ones I'm after. As Phil said, only having one growth point really does help gain bigger traps. I have noticed plants that have grown like a giant divide this season and grow ok sized traps but the bushy look is pretty cool too.
I just stuff all my plants with any bugs that are available and this really seems to give them a great boost and the results are almost instant with the next trap growing bigger then the first.
I thought you people where \"Plant Geeks\", Look at me Now...
Peater you pretty much hit the nail on the head there when you said " there are some that just plain amaze me, and those are the ones I'm after."
That is the way I feel. Why try to create something that is already done and is available. O ya alot are not readily available.
If one is going to cross or self to get better traits you have to start with plants that have some of these traits to begin with, no. Why start at ground zero, crossing regular VFT's to get 100000 seeds and watch for that special one to stand out. I myself do not have the time and patience for that. I do however want to do some crossing ( of stuff that I like) to come up with maybe something special.
Phil, not to try to make any enemies, but you kind of contradict your self when you say "We should stop trying so hard to hunt down every one of these personally named vft variants. As Bob mentioned earlier, many of these different clones are the same plant. There are many beautiful plants out there waiting to be married. One of the crosses I made this year was Pink Venus x Big Mouth (or Big Jaws, or whatever the heck it's now called. it has enormous purple-red traps). There are sure to be some fabulous offspring in this batch." You say we should stop but I just did it
You and most likely every serious VFT grower has hunted down most if not all of the personally named vft variants to cross or just admire. I think growers that have most of the personally named vft's in there collection should have a little compassion when someone simply asks if something is available.
I don't think I have ever herd people mention crossing some regular vft's to come up with something not regular, at this stage of the game. Why reinvent the wheel.
I simply wish to acquire something that is a little different. So show me da money Just kidding.
Some of you more seasoned growers and not, hold a great wealth of knowledge and I really do appreciate the help. So thank you.
Who was the first to develop that different vft anyway and was it just made from crossing something found out in the swamp?
Well thats all for now and if anyone has any more knowledge on how some of these special plants came about please share.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough last time. What I intended to say was that we should not limit ourselves to searching out "only" those named varieties to comprise our collections. Go ahead and do it. But once you have them create a breeding program to match them together. This is meant to enhance your "personal" mission to own a serious collection.
In my 30+ years of growing I have purchased a total of 2, count them, 2 named varietal forms and both of them were from Tony; Pink Venus and Fang. The only other named varietal forms I have, that were obtained entirely as gifts, not even through trade, are Dentate form, Red Dragon, Green Dragon, Jaws. That's it. The remainder of the collection consists of clones I purchased over 15 years ago (more than likely wild collected) and the rest was created ENTIRELY by me by making selfings, sib crosses and cross pollinations.
My main focus is to pursue a vision I have for a particular growth type, color or habit just like any other plant or flower breeder. Could be something I've seen on a thread before that gave me an idea, but most often they are not. I don't want any of the stuff that is floating around. I already have tons of plants that exhibit the same characteristics, but they were created entirely by me and each one is a separate seed raised clone which makes me that much more proud of them.
My mention of crossing Pink Venus by Big Mouth is a perfect example. But I failed to mention that I was referring to a prized specimen I have that was seed raised and exhibits the same growth characteristics as the semi-commercial Big Mouth. I call mine Big Jaws for my own identification purposes. If this name has been used already then I appologize but I will continue to use this name as part of my breeding program. Incidentally....I selfed this plant several times and of the 600 plants I grew out, over 500 of them looked exactly like the mother plant; large 4-6 inch flat rosette with 1.75" traps with every possible color form I could want, including pure green. And this is only 1 of the many, many crosses I've made. I can only imagine what this Pink Venus cross will produce.
So to defend myself (all in good fun of course), I am certainly NOT one of those people who has gone looking for and has obtained all the other stuff. I just make it myself. I find it extremely rewarding knowing that at the same time Leo Song created 'Jaws' I made the exact same cross using my form of "Big Jaws" crossed with 'Dentate form'. The 'Dentate form' is the only common denominator in both of our crosses and neither of us knows each other or knew that we were simultaneously creating a similar hybrid using two identical named varieties and two completely different large form clones. The only thing that matters to me is that I was pleased to see that someone else out there has the same philosophy and visions as I do but he chose to go public with it. I chose not to.
It's all good folks. It's not about who's right or wrong. It's about taking a deep breath, sitting back and enjoying the hobby for what it is. However you choose to represent yourslef in the hobby, it is your vision. Do with it as you will and help others understand how many different ways it can work. No one way is right, just like growing them.
Signing off this thread permanently...