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G14 dirk ventham's giant

Does anyone know a website or two that sells G14 Dirk Ventham's Giants? If you could give me a website it would be really appretiated. THANKS
 
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If you're having trouble finding this plant, try making your own similar clone. Get yourself a decent size 'Dingley Giant' and self polinate every flower that develops, by hand. Plant out and grow the seed and you will or at least should end up with at least one seedling that will resemble the Dirk Ventham clone; upright grower, pure green petiole, solid red traps (inside and out) with a highly arched midrib. I did this with my 'DG' and several of my other "super giants" and ended up with an assortment of color forms with differing growth habits that are now part of the crowning glory of my vft collection. You will also find that some of the seedlings will produce traps that rival the parent clones.

And then there are the babies you get from crossing 'DG' with a Big Jaws or Big Mouth or whatever you want to call it. Make this cross, grow the plants to maturity, sib cross the biggest ones and stand waaaay back. You will never have to ask where to find the biggest and best growing vft; you'll already have them. And with great culture... you WILL get 2"+ traps. ;)

Phil
 
Phil, excellent advice! The problem is that people spend entirely too much effort collecting and growing plants by their name, rather than by their characteristics. It is profitable to sell or trade a plant with a unique name. That is why many of the unregistered "named" cultivars look like the same plant when they are grown side-by-side under identical conditions. They are often the same plant with a different name. The other problem is that following your advice will take many years to see the result of this selective breeding. Most people want instant gratification, not years of careful cultivation.
 
Bob, you're so right. But I feel it is this required "patience" that creates the best growers. Instant gratification sometimes ends in tragic results. It's true that gowing from seed takes time and much patience, but during the time they are growing the seeds to maturity they can still be collecting the forms that are floating around. It's not a method of replacing the search, only enhancing it. And the wait is worth it for growers who have the patiece. Not only in obtaining genetically different material, but in mastering the cultivation requirements. And for really good growers it doesn't take that long to see the results of sib crossed selfings...maybe 5 or 6 years. About the same time it takes to grow many other species of differing genera to maturity.

Just my 2 cents.

Phil
 
Right you are, again. I guess I am slowly getting the required patience. I have only been growing VFTs since 1955. Perhaps one of these years, I may eventually learn how.
 
I think you guys have great ideas. Yes cross some of the named cultivars, grow out till they are mature and note differences and similarities. Maybe register your own plant someday. That would be great.

But, for instance myself. I am an orchid grower, have recently started growing C/Ps, and do some hobby T/C. I live in Alberta Canada.

I have done a lot of searching and have found no large cultivars except red dragon (if you want to call that large) in Canada. That means ordering from across the border, in which I have done recently.
The cost of the plant material, shipping, inspections ect. is not cheap. Plus plants getting stuck in customs for 10 days plus the normal slowness of mail itself is not a good start, do you think the plants will be alive after 4 weeks in a box? I think I may have thrown 150$ Can. down the toilet.
If the plants arrive alive they will be quite resistant to growing up to be a giant cultivar they are, because of the stress. It may take a couple of years just to flower, and if you want a strong healthy plant you may want to snip the flower for a year or two. That means if plants live. It will take 3 to 4 years till seed then 2 to 4 till new traits are noticed. That is quite an investment, time and money.

I guess what I am trying to say hear is that I think some people do not have the resources to easily acquire good breeding stock or just that specific plant you take a liking to. SO you have to ask.
I myself would like these plants to be available to all Canadians and to people that are from far away places and have the same country to country problems.

Sorry about the rant, I'm just a little stressed about the recent order.

O I almost forgot philcula you say
(Get yourself a decent size 'Dingley Giant' and self polinate every flower that develops, by hand.) This may result in a plant simular to the  G14 Dirk Ventham's Giant.

I was under the impression that most of the registered plants were altered in tissue culture with hormones or chemicals that caused the mutations.

Stephen
 
  • #10
Is this double chromasome a natural thing, does it carry on to the seed?
 
  • #12
Hmmm...let me see if I can shed some light here.

First let's not look at chromosone counts here, but true visually mutant forms. So all you soap box scientists out there just take a chill pill for the time being. K?

I personally do not consider any large trap form or variable color vft to be a mutant. Some good examples of true mutant vft forms are cup trap, fused tooth, pom-pom, Bart Simpson, etc. YUK! I can't figure out why people are so inclined to feverishly hunt down and grow such rubbish, but as it stands...beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. Of course these mutations may have been induced via tissue culture.

Now then, the original question that opened this thread was "where can one obtain a Dirk Ventham vft"? This vft is not a text book mutant form but rather a large growing typical form with highly prized coloration, (my opinion so back off). Nothing out of the ordinary here except for the color. Giantism is not a result of the introduction of artificial chemical stimulus, but rather a genetic code. Therefor one can self pollinate a large form vft and safely EXPECT some of the resulting offspring to be genetically similar or even identical to the parent plant. I would say at least 40% to 60% of the offspring will be large form. The specific color you're looking for may not appear with this batch of plants so you will have to grow the babies up and either self these or sib cross them. Yes....an investment in time. This is exactly how flower breeders develop their newest plants for their test trials.

Your chances of developing the biggest and best cultivars are enhanced when you perform f2, f3, sib crosses and cross pollinations. Trust me...it works. I have already performed all of these processes on several giant forms in my collection and more than 80% of the offspring are much bigger than the parent plants used. These are the plants I have to keep in the greenhouse because they routinely catch and devour small tree frogs on a regular basis outdoors.
I have hundreds of these frogs around my yard.

Also, if a vft arrives in poor condition it should not take it more than the remainder of THIS growing season to snap out of it. Give the plant a proper growing environment with very fresh soil and a brand new pot. For heaven's sake DO NOT reuse your old pots. Some of the pics of vft that have been posted on these threads are pitiful. Vft are very sensitive to their growing environment. The better the conditions, the better the plant. And a proper dormancy is crucial.  Cultural excellence and cleanliness is everything.

Sure there are many people out there who will say that this is all a bunch of unnecessary drivel. Just plant the bulbs and grow them. Well I've seen many of these collections and unfortunately these people are not as good a grower as they think they are.

We should stop trying so hard to hunt down every one of these personally named vft variants. As Bob mentioned earlier, many of these different clones are the same plant. There are many beautiful plants out there waiting to be married. One of the crosses I made this year was Pink Venus x Big Mouth (or Big Jaws, or whatever the heck it's now called. it has enormous purple-red traps). There are sure to be some fabulous offspring in this batch.

You see....half the fun of growing cp's is working with them as well. It is extremely rewarding to set out with a vision in mind and watch it come to fruition. And it doesn't take that long. If you're growing Sarracenia or Darlingtonia from seed....well....that doesn't happen overnight, right?

Oh just one more thing. How do you get the biggest, best traps on your plants?
Simple. Remove all of the small plantlets that develop on the main bulb. Remove them every year and grow only the main bulb by itself. This is where you get your show stoppers.

Grow on!

Phil
 
  • #13
Hi Phil and bob Im a beginner grower so Im not very experienced at growing seeds could you tell me step by step how to poolinate flowers by hand?
 
  • #15
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]G14, if it is a true giant ,will visually show it and have double chromosomes.

I was under the impreesion all Dionaea were basically the same, with only a few genes altering growth habit, coloration and size. Is there such a thing as 'double chromosomes?'

Here's the information for G14:

G14 Dirk Ventham’s Giant (informally named by Stephen Morely). Possible source - Adrian Slack. Obtained by Graham Sadd in 1995. Distinguishing features - trap colour.


Here are two crosses grown from seed:

vft1.jpg


Left - G4 Short Petioles x G19 Vertical. Right - G3 Homebase Red x G17 Megatrap.

The ones on the right are fantastic looking plants with deep red interiors which eventually spread to the nectar zone and spines. The centre right plant has very large traps, which could eventually turn into a very large form plant. Again, the centre left plant has very large traps borne on short upright petioles. Nothing worthy of cultiavr status, but an example of the good plants that can be obtained from good original stock.
 
  • #16
But Stephen, how could you tell if "true giants" are "mutants" none the less where it is mutated(double chromosomes). From my understanding of meiosis that I learned from 7 grade science(I just promoted to the 9th grade), the paternal side duplicates its its genetic information and its cell organs. Then the cell splits into 2 identical cells. Then it splits again into 4 cells, each with half the genetic code of the original cell. The same goes with the maternal cell. So each seed has a different combination. Now, there are incalculable permutations of genetic codes. Each seed has something different. A mutation is an error in duplication.  One line of genetic code extra, one line of genetic code missing, ect. I think there are too many possibilities of genetic permutations for us to be just guessing what something is made of. I mean I can't just point to this VFT and say, you've got one this genetic code and this genetic code, therefore your traps are pink? It's impossible.

Phong
 
  • #18
My favorite reason for growing venus flytraps is because they vary so much from one plant to another. Making crosses and pollinating plants hoping that they will make offspring that are more vigorous or something special makes growing these guys worth every single penny.
But I still think it is worthwhile to collect named plants and cultivars, I have to agree that a lot of them are typicals named just because and are just as vigorous as any other vft. But there are some that just plain amaze me, and those are the ones I'm after. As Phil said, only having one growth point really does help gain bigger traps. I have noticed plants that have grown like a giant divide this season and grow ok sized traps but the bushy look is pretty cool too.
I just stuff all my plants with any bugs that are available and this really seems to give them a great boost and the results are almost instant with the next trap growing bigger then the first.
 
  • #19
Peater you pretty much hit the nail on the head there when you said " there are some that just plain amaze me, and those are the ones I'm after."
That is the way I feel. Why try to create something that is already done and is available. O ya alot are not readily available.

If one is going to cross or self to get better traits you have to start with plants that have some of these traits to begin with, no. Why start at ground zero, crossing regular VFT's to get 100000 seeds and watch for that special one to stand out. I myself do not have the time and patience for that. I do however want to do some crossing ( of stuff that I like) to come up with maybe something special.

Phil, not to try to make any enemies, but you kind of contradict your self when you say "We should stop trying so hard to hunt down every one of these personally named vft variants. As Bob mentioned earlier, many of these different clones are the same plant. There are many beautiful plants out there waiting to be married. One of the crosses I made this year was Pink Venus x Big Mouth (or Big Jaws, or whatever the heck it's now called. it has enormous purple-red traps). There are sure to be some fabulous offspring in this batch." You say we should stop but I just did it???

You and most likely every serious VFT grower has hunted down most if not all of the personally named vft variants to cross or just admire. I think growers that have most of the personally named vft's in there collection should have a little compassion when someone simply asks if something is available.

I don't think I have ever herd people mention crossing some regular vft's to come up with something not regular, at this stage of the game. Why reinvent the wheel.
I simply wish to acquire something that is a little different. So show me da money Just kidding.
Some of you more seasoned growers and not, hold a great wealth of knowledge and I really do appreciate the help. So thank you.
Who was the first to develop that different vft anyway and was it just made from crossing something found out in the swamp?
Well thats all for now and if anyone has any more knowledge on how some of these special plants came about please share.
Stephen D
 
  • #20
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough last time. What I intended to say was that we should not limit ourselves to searching out "only" those named varieties to comprise our collections. Go ahead and do it. But once you have them create a breeding program to match them together. This is meant to enhance your "personal" mission to own a serious collection.

In my 30+ years of growing I have purchased a total of 2, count them, 2 named varietal forms and both of them were from Tony; Pink Venus and Fang. The only other named varietal forms I have, that were obtained entirely as gifts, not even through trade, are Dentate form, Red Dragon, Green Dragon, Jaws. That's it. The remainder of the collection consists of clones I purchased over 15 years ago (more than likely wild collected) and the rest was created ENTIRELY by me by making selfings, sib crosses and cross pollinations.

My main focus is to pursue a vision I have for a particular growth type, color or habit just like any other plant or flower breeder. Could be something I've seen on a thread before that gave me an idea, but most often they are not. I don't want any of the stuff that is floating around. I already have tons of plants that exhibit the same characteristics, but they were created entirely by me and each one is a separate seed raised clone which makes me that much more proud of them.

My mention of crossing Pink Venus by Big Mouth is a perfect example. But I failed to mention that I was referring to a prized specimen I have that was seed raised and exhibits the same growth characteristics as the semi-commercial Big Mouth. I call mine Big Jaws for my own identification purposes. If this name has been used already then I appologize but I will continue to use this name as part of my breeding program. Incidentally....I selfed this plant several times and of the 600 plants I grew out, over 500 of them looked exactly like the mother plant; large 4-6 inch flat rosette with 1.75" traps with every possible color form I could want, including pure green. And this is only 1 of the many, many crosses I've made. I can only imagine what this Pink Venus cross will produce.

So to defend myself (all in good fun of course), I am certainly NOT one of those people who has gone looking for and has obtained all the other stuff. I just make it myself. I find it extremely rewarding knowing that at the same time Leo Song created 'Jaws' I made the exact same cross using my form of "Big Jaws" crossed with 'Dentate form'. The 'Dentate form' is the only common denominator in both of our crosses and neither of us knows each other or knew that we were simultaneously creating a similar hybrid using two identical named varieties and two completely different large form clones. The only thing that matters to me is that I was pleased to see that someone else out there has the same philosophy and visions as I do but he chose to go public with it. I chose not to.

It's all good folks. It's not about who's right or wrong. It's about taking a deep breath, sitting back and enjoying the hobby for what it is. However you choose to represent yourslef in the hobby, it is your vision. Do with it as you will and help others understand how many different ways it can work. No one way is right, just like growing them.

Signing off this thread permanently...

Peace Out-
 
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