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Thread: Pinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas

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    Cyclanthaceae's Avatar
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    Pinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas

    Not a lot of intraspecific flower color variation reported for Neotropical Pinguicula spp. in cultivation other than P. moranensis and P. laueana. I have attached a few photos of interesting variations in seed-grow plants that have popped up in the greenhouse over the past two years. I have only selected plants with consistent, stable color for vegetative propagation. No albas yet. Two photos on the right show normal color for the species.

    Pinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-pinguicula-mesophytica-pink-jpgPinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-pinguicula-mesophytica-splash-petal-jpgPinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-pinguicula-mesophytica-hot-pink-jpgPinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-pinguicula-mesophytica-specimen-jpgPinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-img_20170606_152512-jpg

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    carnivorous plants of the world -- unite! DragonsEye's Avatar
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    Quite nice. Have you been crossing them yourself?
    "Blessed are the cracked….
    For they are the ones who let in the light."



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    Grey Moss's Avatar
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    Nice, those are some really beautiful blooms. I agree that more needs to be done in bringing out the variation of pinguicula. T

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    hcarlton's Avatar
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    There hasn't ever been a "var. alba" described for P. mesophytica, and unless the plants produce white-flowered offspring that breed genetically true you can't really call them semi-alba either (and still wouldn't technically be able to unless you registered a var. alba, and then they would be heterozygous partial dominant for alba if a color change is so visible), they're just part of the spectrum of colors. Showing a variation in species is very nice, but it's best to avoid starting to coin more unofficial or invalid names for things.
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    Cyclanthaceae's Avatar
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    Dragonseye: I am not breeding this species at present - I have in the past - since I have quite enough living material to work with for now. I am more interested in segregating the most vigorous and best-flowered clones for vegetative propagation to get the species well-established in cultivation from seed-grown stock of known provenance, esp. from the colchicine-treated set. I am currently stockpiling choice clones of another very attractive Mesoamerican ping sp. in order to do some test crosses in 2018, since I am intrigued in the possibilities of generating new colors and larger/better flower forms in that one as well.

    hcarlton: I am not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here. I did not invoke the term "var." in my post, so no confusion should arise. I only highlight previously undescribed color variation in flowers of this sp. While they are commonly used interchangeably in hort circles, I much prefer "forma" (fa.) alba or simply "alba" as a suffix to the specific epithet when describing albino flowered wild-origin plants. You don't appear to be clear what a semi-alba is in this context, i.e. a flower with visible background white that is "splashed", picoteed or otherwise marked with a darker color. In pings, perhaps the best example of what I consider a semi alba is the "ANPA A" form of P. moranensis from Hidalgo. No doubt due to my phone's camera's limitations, the colors of the splash-petaled flower in #2 shown looks muddier than in life, but it does indeed have areas of white that normally would be pink or purple.

    An "ANPA A"

    Pinguicula mesophytica - pinks and semi-albas-pinguicula-moranensis-anpa-detail-jpg

    Albino flowers in otherwise purple-flowered plants are relatively commonplace in some plant families in the Neotropics. Indeed, AFAIK, in orchids, all of the purple flowered Cattleya, Guarianthe and Laelia spp. have well-established alba forms in cultivation. We know relatively little about the frequency of this in plants in nature in the tropics, but there so appear to be certain populations that produce noteworthy numbers of albas (e.g. Guarianthe skinneri in NW and central Costa Rica) while in others they are incredibly rare (G. skinneri in Chiapas and Guatemala). A similar situation exists for the national flower (orchid) of Guatemala, Lycaste virginalis, where specific ecotypes are dominated by alba forms. It *appears* that albino flowers occur in lower numbers in Mesoamerican pings, in spite of many of the species being naturally white or partially white-flowered. Besides the two Mexican alba forms of P. moranensis that are common in cultivation, I have seen a couple pure-white flowers in the high Cuchumatanes of western Guatemala amidst a population numbering many thousands of plants. That said, for a wide variety of reasons, I am confident that further artificial propagation/line-breeding of P. mesophytica will indeed generate pure white-flowered plants.

    I'm curious as to where you get the idea that one has to "register" a var. alba for it to be a valid term? Again, the term "var. alba" is utilized promiscuously by orchid, gesneriad, cacti, etc. growers when white-flowered sports appear in artificially-propagated material or wild populations. Are all the P. moranensis alba clones in cultivation "registered"? If so, where? The RHS? The ICPS?

    Since I don't know you, it is entirely possible that you are familiar with P. mesophytica across the various populations in its range states. It is also possible (but rather unlikely) that you are familiar with the different captive colonies of wild-origin plants held in Guatemala City, Antigua Guatemala, San Salvador, Mexico City and San Francisco. I am unaware of any other images posted of significant color variation in this sp., including Lampard, et. al. Since there was (is?) a great deal of confusion amongst growers outside of CentrAm as to the identities of plants in cultivation and relatively few Gringos have seen this sp. in nature, coupled with having lived in Guatemala for most of my life up until recently, you will understand that I am reluctant to defer to "internet authorities" as to what the full range of colors in the sp. is.

    J
    Last edited by Cyclanthaceae; 10-09-2017 at 11:58 AM.

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    hcarlton's Avatar
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    You suggested that the plants you show are "semi-albas," a term I can only find as registered or commonly accepted genetic variations of species or valid hybrids and only those that actually do show white on the plants; the mesophytica seen here are still pink throughout even if they have lighter and darker areas, so even though I think this is a term that should be avoided altogether (because perfectly valid terms such as variegated or piebald already exist to describe partially pigmented organisms, or just patterned for things that aren't unique mutations but population-stable traits like ANPA-A), it still doesn't apply otherwise.
    Because of the rules in place for the recognition and registration of taxonomic ranks vs. cultivars any plants of horticultural interest (such as line-bred plants vs. actual genetic mutations like the recessive white-flowered Drosera and other plants) should not be labeled with Latinized terms, because that can cause confusion (ex. D. capensis 'Albino' which is referred to incorrectly as "var. alba" or "Alba" all the time). Just because it is used incorrectly everywhere does not mean it is valid or proper, and should not necessarily be continued. In your example of the moranensis alba, it may be already taxonomically validly registered if what I can dig up is to be believed but if not would only take a short paper to publish as it is a stable form.
    The plants you have are line-bred if you're selecting for light-colored flowers, it's not a strict recessive/codominant/etc. mutation like as seen in all valid var./forma alba (the two terms are not, actually, interchangeable, variety is above form) and not something that actually did show up in the wild, and so should be recognized if you end up with lighter colored plants as a cultivated variety, not a Latin-denoted form. If you suddenly have white-flowered offspring from seeds of a pink-flowered plant that would suggest something genetic and stable and could be recognized validly as an "alba" perhaps, but that's not the same as a slow, line-bred progression toward white which may never actually remove all pigment even if to our eyes it appears basically white and thereby not be true albino, and at the very least is an artificial induction and should follow cultivar rules, not txonomic rules where Latin terms are concerned.
    Everything has a reason, whether big or small. Never underestimate the power of what is or is not.
    There is far more to everything than meets the eye.
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    jeff 2's Avatar
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    Bonjour

    very very good discussion , "merci" .

    I have seen a couple pure-white flowers in the high Cuchumatanes of western Guatemala amidst a population numbering many thousands of plants

    have you some picture to this P.moranensis f alba population ? they were in a typical or single population ?

    may be rather talk about pale pink plant rather, than plant 'semi-alba'

    jeff
    Last edited by jeff 2; 10-09-2017 at 11:58 PM.

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    Cyclanthaceae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff 2 View Post
    Bonjour

    very very good discussion , "merci" ...

    jeff
    Sorry, Jeff. No it's not. It's another dialogue of the deaf, of precisely the type that drives many people away from, not to, internet fora. I will leave it to interested parties to actually read the exchange here and draw their own conclusions. As for me, I don't have any interest in being drawn into puerile debate.

    Jay

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