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Lithops - third try

Indiana Gardener

Got Drosera?
I saw a small pot of Lithops at Lowes today and couldn't pass up a pot of two for a couple bucks.

I've had a two other sets before about 10+ yrs ago. I managed to keep one for a yr or better and it actually bloomed for me.

Where I always seem to go wrong is winter care and watering.

These are growing in peat moss and perlite. Shouldn't a desert plant be in coarse sand or something of that nature?

Should they be kept warm yr round, or slightly cooler in the winter. I am thinking the latter?

Also, it's in a plastic pot. Would a terra cotta pot be better for soil breathing, or not necessary?

Any pointers at all would be great and well appreciated. I really do not want to fail again.
Thanks!
 
It looks to me that you already know the answers!
I used to get them out of the pots and too enriched soil they would come in and place them in a sandy mix in a clay pot...or terra cotta/ceramic ungaized...whatever!
Outside (in a temperate climate) when over 1C (34F) at nite and watering 1-2 time a week (the soil has to dry out between waterings). Inside during winter (or when overnite temps are under 1C) in low levels of light and low temps (1-7C) with watering only if the plants are getting too weak. If you need to water during winter you can do so but you have to dry the pot out in a day or 2 or the plant will rot. I can give you more info if interested.
 
>It looks to me that you already know the answers!>

I just have trouble actually doing it... (soil recipe, etc)

You mentioned 7ºC (44ºF) for the winter. I have a bird room in the barn that is heated to 12ºC (55ºF) in the winter. Would that be too warm? I could put a full spectrum compact florescent just a few inches above it for light if that would work?

>you have to dry the pot out in a day or 2 or the plant will rot.>

I am thinking perlite and chicken grit?

lithops-5-26-09.jpg


Two different stages of growth? One's old leaves are already dried up and the other is not as far along. They only had a few pots of them and one in each pot had some kind of a blemish. They were callused and seem to be healed over. So I got the ones with only one small spot on one leaf.

>I can give you more info if interested.>

Yes, please!

Thank you!
 
hey Indy,
I would seperate them into thier own pots so you can water the one with the dry skin and dry the one with the fleshy skin sweater. Lets see the tops and try to figure out what species you've got, I don't have any white/pink ones. When you repot plant them about 1/2 their depth and top dress the rest of the way up to their "cracK" or cleft. When you unpot these you'll see they are very highly potted. this is because lithops will stand up when full of water and pull down into the soil when dry. They can only "move" in one direction in peat up and eventually out! In a gravel mix they will move up and down (contractile roots) as they display to you their watering needs. Shriveled and pulled down into the gravel they are dry standing up and well above the gravel they are generally fat with water and happy.

The skin blemishes are usually caused by overwateriing and splitting the skins. This is not always fatal but it always marrs the surface, thankfully only until the new skin emerges. Next winter/spring the new skin if kept from overwatering or being wet in bright sun will be picture perfect most of the year.

I always repot because the rich soils the nurseries can grow these in always rot the plants off at the soil line before long.

If you can use Shultz aquatic plant soil or NAPA Floor Dry in place of the Perlite you'll have a mineral mix that holds more moisture as well as air. Perlite has surface area to hold water but doesn't absorb water into the interior of itself as the open pore structure of Napa or fired clay does so perlite pots are always very dry (a bit too much so). Kitty litter is not fired at a high enough temperature to ensure it won't revert to clay but I've heard rumors that the red bag of Special Kitty at Walmart is OK to use, I've not tried it though so I can't vouch one way or other. Napa is my fave but you do need to put pea gravel or chicken grit (cherrystone) to give it some weight to hold a plant down.

I overwinter my plants inside under bright lights with an air duct pulling air from outside the window onto the plant shelf. Iset my timer to whatever light schedule the sun is at, 8 hrs mid winter and 16 hours mid summer. They still bloom and absorb the old skins. Just don't dump water on them if they are dormant or fat. Lithops are actively growing in day temps of 70-85*F and nights of 50-60*F basically spring & fall outdoors or in CP terms "highland nep conditions" (just low humidity). Colder or hotter than this and they go to sleep and only need water if they wrinkle. In fact I only water my Lithops and other succulents when they show signs of wrinkling whatever time of year it is. This way it's hard to overwater, it's hard to kill with too little water (for most) but easy to melt down a favorite plant with a bit of extra "attention".
 
Thanks, swords! I am planning to repot later this evening. I already have floor dry from NAPA. Just have to gather a couple small pots.

Here is the view from the top. My theory is two different species.

lithops-top.jpg


Edit... So much for potting this evening. I do not have any NAPA floor dry as I thought. It was bought at NAPA, but is some other brand, starts with an M... I forgot it already. Anyway, it just crumbles to mush when wet.

I found it on the NAPA web site, but no price listed. One place online said it's $7 for 25 Lbs. By the time I buy the pots and floor dry, I'd have $10 in two tiny plants, which just seems outrageous. :0o: (and there's other places my $ has to go) A two buck plant is getting expensive. I still have my receipt and they're going back. I just didn't expect it to be such an expense with an initial cost of only $2.58. Thanks for the info anyway.
 
Sand and garden soil or peat and some used cups should not be that expensive. I haven't seen any NAPA in my many trips to the desert ...maybe they don't need it. (i know this may sound unbelievable).....seriously man, just try it! They don't care much about soil and they are not expensive to keep at all.
Swords, during winter they don't need much light at all. A north cold window will do. Many growers i know are putting them in their basements near windows and forget about them til spring.
I used to have them in a glass closed balcony with no heating so the temps would go to that mentioned range and place them on shelves away from the windows and the direct sun. THEY DO NOT GROW DURING THIS TIME so the low light is more than enough for their slow metabolism...this and the low temps may also help them not to loose their body water too fast.
 
I'll say it again Mark if your plants don't rot with plain old garden soil & sand then that's what YOU can grow them in due to your environmental conditions. For me, in MN they rot off at the soil line and I'm done throwing my money away by killing plants needlessly when all I have to do is change my growing media to be successful. I have "just tried it" by leaving them potted as they come or repotting with 50/50 peat & perlite (we only have play sand is available here which makes soil into a compact mud). The results are the same however, dead, jellied/melted succulent plants. Hence the mineral mix. I'm doing what works for me.

In CA you'd likely be chasing the pots daily with water using my mix, I understand that because I've had this argument with one of my succulent dealers from CA who always send his stuff potted. I tell him not to bother since his soil mix rots them here. He didn't believe me so I sent him a rotted Lithops in his soil mix of "super soil & pumice" just to prove it to him the last time one of his Lithops died that I didn't repot. Don't make me send you a rotten Lithops! :D

If Indy can grow them in essentially "sundew mix" as you suggest he has every right to go ahead try. I won't be offended if he succeeds but it won't change my habits cos I can't grow succulents in a bog soil mix. I only suggest what works for me in my experience. As far as keeping them in low light perhaps that is fine, if it is go for it! However I want to put them with my other plants so I can see them and enjoy them and also not forget to water them when they get wrinkly. Cos outta sight outta mind and you can dehydrate them to death even in dormancy, I've done it with one of my Conophytums.

Many African succulents naturally grow in minerals (quartz sand, grit, etc.) and not rich black garden soil so it's not completely insane to pot them in a mineral mix. Napa is just expanded diatomaceous earth underneath the snazzy name.

As far as Napa being "expensive" I am using it in place of sand or perlite in my CP mixes with peat, mixed with coir to grow my Dorstenias and for rooting my bonsai cuttings. Since it can get used all over the garden it's no pricier than perlite. You get a huge bag for $7.30 as it weighs about the same as perlite but holds a lot more water than perlite when you wet it.
 
Yes, and you should stick to that if it works for you! I was just presenting a method that works, it's cheaper and it's really popular in Europe...NOT MY METHOD but the one i used for years with great succes. On the soil...i did say before that a sandy mix should be used meaning that sand is at least 2:1 ...and don't forget about the clay pot. Try it...you might be surprised how well it can work. The peat i was using sometimes was not the one used with CP's and clay loam was one fo the other options.
Ok ...i'm done giving advice on these plants. I stoped growing them more than 10 years ago (i just keep one for fan) and maybe better stuff was found for them or better growing methods.
 
Yes, all the "rage" these days is to try and emulate their natural conditions as closely as possible. Blasting them with intense light, mild air temps, mostly dry nutrient free mineral mixes that are similar to their natural soil conditions. If you see images of them in the wild often they're just a clump of plant flesh peeking out of a cleft in between two rocks with it's feet potted in a few gravel bits covered in quartz sand. This causes the plants to become very compact, hard and colorful like the plants in habitat. They look a lot different than plants normally kept in cultivation who tend to be very large, soft and green (not Lithops so much not many green Lithops). These are not actually new techniques I have a book called "Growing the Mesembraceae" from the RHS published in the 1940s/1950s which suggests growing them this way but took some 60 years to catch on...? It just so happens that this "hard" style of growing in all minerals enables me to grow them without rotting them at the soil line.

I don't use clay pots because I want to fit as many plants on my shelves as possible, 64 4" or 128 2" pots on each shelf. Clay pots would likely screw up those nice quantities! :D
 
  • #10
I just can't see spending $7 for a little hand full of material when I have no use for for the rest of it. As in MN, they would very likely rot in anything else. It's very wet and humid here.

If they won't likely do well in something I already have; grit, crushed lava rock, perlite, or sand, then they need to go to some other home. They're going back to Lowe's today. I'm not out to kill my third one and I'm not about to pay over twice as much for soil as I did for the plant itself.
 
  • #11
If you have crushed lava rock and grit (you could likely omit the sand) that's a great mix. Basically any soil you can mix up that will dry out in 2-3 days is all you need, you could even use shredded car tires if need be (Singapore)! There's nothing magical about Napa, it's just easily available here and does what I want, Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil does what I want too but it costs way more than the Napa.

I'd just poop with glee if I could get some small crushed lava rock or small pumice in my area! That's what the Napa or Shultz APS is being used as a replacement for in my mix because we don't have those things available here.

As far as returning your Lithops, even in the "store soil" you'll probably keep them alive longer than the store will! lol! But if you've got crushed lava rock in small pieces, you're already all set! Earlier you said pumice and grit but that would be really dry since water only sits on the surface of these two things and doesn't soak into the pores. But pure lava rock or lava & grit should be awesome to pot them in. You might even need to add a wee bit of peat to force it to stay wet for 2-3 days. The best thing to do is run some empty pot experiments and see how long a few different mixes using what you have onhand take to dry out after being watered. The mix which is dry clear through but not compacted in 2-3 days is the one to start with and grow from there. Whatever gives you that result, no matter what materials it is (so long as it's non-toxic), is a good starting point. Some succulents you'll find like a moister mix and some a drier but 2-3 days generally allows them all to soak up enough water but doesn't stay wet long enough to induce rot in healthy roots. Mesembs like Lithops are some of the worst "rotters" in the MN climate. If the soil dries faster than a couple days they might not get a decent drink.
 
  • #12
Thanks anyway, but they're already back at Lowe's and my $2.58 is back in my pocket. I'm not getting anything else like that from there to encourage that growing practice. I was not at all expecting to have to spend more money on them immediately; more money than the plants themselves were worth! (my work hours are down by over half from last month) If NAPA DE was what they needed, then that's what I would have wanted to have been able to give them. I see this as more or less a third fail. Not being able to give them what they need is just leading up to another death anyway. I'm done with even thinking about trying to grow lithops. I gave it three tries, that's it.

I can get landscape lava rock by the ton here. It's cheap too. Not a rip off like buying it bagged at the garden center; Lowe's... caugh, caugh.... I crush it myself and then sift it and grade it by size for my bonsai mixes. How much do you need?
 
  • #13
That's unfortunate, as I said there's nothing magical about Napa, it's just what I use here cos I can't get lava rock or pumice. I can order it but it costs too much to ship. The mass growers who supply Lowes and others with these plants must have well ventilated greenhouses in warm climates to use the soil they do but no matter what succulents you choose there will be a experimental period until you find the soil mix that works right for you. You have to be willing to take the losses to reap the successes.
 
  • #14
Hey guys.

Because this thread contains most of the info I need, I figured I'd just revive it and ask some questions in here.

I just picked up a pot of lithops from Lowe's that look to be in pure peat that is extremely compacted. The plants (3) are sticking out of the pot by about 3 inches, exactly how Swords explained they get when they are planted in peat.

My questions:
1. As MarkCA suggested, I'm going to try planting them in regular soil with sand. Is potting soil with fertilizer ok? Should I top dress with sand?
2. Should I water them when transplanted?
3. Are the roots fragile? (AKA, should I be careful when removing them from their peat straight jacket?)
4. Can I keep these on my cp grow rack? My lights are on for 16 hours in Spring/Summer and some of fall and 15 hours for part of fall and all of winter.
5. The label says not to water "new" leaves until old leaves are dry husks. Is that correct? (I assume it's talking about when new leaves emerge out of the old ones.)
6. On a regular basis, don't water them until they start to shrivel... correct?

Thanks for any help!
 
  • #15
Hey Dart you've pretty much got it.

Before doing your actual repotting make up a couple different sample size soil mixes put them each in the tiny pots you plan to use for the Lithops. Water the empty pots of soil and set them where the Lithops will be growing (under the same light, temps, etc) and wait a few days then use the one which is totally dry or driest you can get throughout (not just the top inch or so being dry) in about 3 days.

It'll only take a few days to find which mix will be best for you in your area. The higher your relative humidity the less water retaining your soil needs to be mine is 25% RH now and will be up to 50% in August while my main Lithops man's is 6-10% RH almost year round! Hence why he can use all the peat he wants to help retain moisture. So run a few experiments before doing the repotting to find the mix that dries out fastest for you. These plants can be repotted anytime of the year, no buzzers are going off, there's no rush.

In my experience peat + sand is almost like a recipe to make mud (stays wet, gets compact & has no air flow through the soil) that's what folks grow Sundews, Utrics and such in right? That's a swampy soil that doesn't dry out for several weeks in my area (and actually kills my CPs too so I don't use it for them either). But maybe you have larger grit sand than is available here. 1-2 mm grit sand is a good size for "sand" the play sand is bad news my my exp. Way too fine and that's all I can get.


After you have your soil mix pop the peat cube out of the Lowes pot and crush the dry peat cube with your hands, it'll crumble pretty easy, using your fingers tease all the peat out of the roots, there's not usually very many roots on a lithops so it's not very hard to do. When you get all the peat out fill your pot 1/2 way with the new soil and tilt at a 45* angle so you have a soil slope, lay your lithops on the slop and shovel in the other half. Then hold the pot upright and adjust the lithops to upright and tap the pot a few times on a table so the new soil compacts in around the roots. I bury about 1/2 of the body but if you've used a lot of peat in the new soil mix don't bury the body in anything but top dressing (i.e. pea gravel/aquarium gravel, non compacting sand, etc) if the bodies stay wet from contact with the peat they'll discolor and rot.

I don't usually water for 2-3 weeks after repotting succulents as many times plant that were repotted then immediately watered have rotted on me. I lost a new Pachypodium bevicaule that way recently because I thought it looked a bit too desicated after it's trip but my "kindness" worked against me. Waiting a few weeks gives the roots time to heal and recover their strength and the plant a chance to reanchor itself. Don't flood the pot on your first watering, just do a light watering, water doesn't have to come out of the bottom of the pot, if you saw some go in the top that's good enough for the first time, a week later do another deeper watering (water can come out the bottom) then leave them be until they start retreating into the soil and getting very wrinkly, Lithops will wrinkle slightly on warm days but on cooler days they pop right back into shape, but if they don't puff back up and just get more wrinkly then it's water time. It's pretty hard to starve these things for water.

You will want less light hours and cooler temps for winter so your plants know what time of year it is: when to flower, when to start pushing up a new body, etc. They might make new bodies even without photoperiod shifts, a perpetual vegetative state but I've heard they must have a temp and photoperiod shift to initiate blooms. Since these come from a rather temperate climate (S. africa, Namibia, etc) don't subject them to blazing hot temps and direct sun all day, if they turn white you've boiled all the Lith out of your Ops! :D
 
  • #16
Thank you very much Swords. I really appreciate your help!

So don't keep them under the lights with my cps unless I significantly lower the light schedule in winter?

Thanks again man!

Edit: Looks like I'll have to wait a few days before I repot and do a soil experiment. I forgot that I was going to Jersey on Thursday!
 
  • #17
You could put them next to a window for winter, that would give them the cool temps and the temperate light schedule. I have no good windows to use or I might do that myself!

Don't put your Lithops in any still air terrariums, they seem very susceptible to diseases when they stay wet/humid/stagnant for any length of time, plus it will keep the soil from drying out even more.

Think about it this way the annual rainfall of some Lithops habitats is 6 mm with a humidity in the single digits!
 
  • #18
Alright cool. Thanks!
 
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