Polocies of the trading forum

[Casper]

Locking the last thread was wrong, imo, so I started another. Feel free to delete it if you feel you must, but that wouldn't be right.

Quote[/b] ] This was not meant to be a debate.

Quote[/b] ] END of conversation.

I apologize, but I have an opinion and I feel that I deserve to say it. You are a mod, if you feel my post breaks the rules, then feel free to delete it, I will not scream and banter about censorship, but I still think that my opinion is valid. This is a public forum, everything is a debate.

Point in case. I am making a bog garden this spring. I fully intend to make a post asking if anyone has any extra bog plants. Should I have waited to give away all my pygmies till then so I had something to "trade". No, I was given the seed, and I will not make it a requirement for someone to trade me something for it. Some did, some didn't, and thats great, but to hold onto them for another 3 months and keep them out of the hands of others for that period of time is wrong. I want them to bring joy to others as they did me. Also, certain people might not have gotten their first pygmie because I am "holding" out for a trade.

I do agree, beggers can be agrivating, but I myself am not a begger. I have helped EVERYONE that has helped me, and I know a few people can attest to that. I have been generous to the fullest of my abilaties and to think if I made a post asking for anyones overflows of bog plants to be begging is down right insulting.

Another point, I have an extra D. Cap right now. Do I feel its significant enough to make a topic on? No, but if someone asks for it, I would respond because I know someone is actually looking for it.

One of the greatest aspects of this community is the generousity. To say that this is strictly a "TRADE" forum seems to take something away from that.

What about the 14 year old that doesn't have much money but has an interest in Cp's? He doesn't have anything to trade, and lets be realistic, the freebies go to the lucky few that happen to see the post in time. So is he to hang on the computer 24/7 in the hopes of being one of the lucky few to jump in quick enough? So he doesn't get started in this great obsesion and he moves on to another hobby because he couldn't make a post saying "Hey, I'm a newbie and would like to grow a few cp's, anyone have any extra" and we lose one more person. Who knows, that kid could have been the next Tam.

Putting up with a little agrivation far outwieghs the risk, in my humble opinion.

Casper

 

[cool85k5]

Thats right,but I wont say anything this time.Well I think I will,if its ok to give plants/seed for free,why is it wrong to ask if anyone has some for free?


                             Jerry

 

[Copper]

Hmm, a valid point.

May I make a humble suggestion. The 'begging' does bother some. The asking does not bother me, but the begging does. That is I have even received PMs that are almost (or more than almost) demanding in nature. This is annoying, but the asking (once) is not.

My suggestion is this. Would it be possible to pin on thread to the top where people can ask (still not demand!) for plants and those with extra can check. I know this thread could get HUGE, but it could be cleared out from time to time. The trading or giving threads could go on as they have. This is my simple suggestion. I do not know if it is a viable idea.

Thanks
Rose

 

[Copper]

I should reiterate. Those that I have had trades with, or given plants to, do not be afraid to PM and ask if there is something on my list you like. Also if your growlist is small do not be afraid to offer. I do not have many of the common plants, ie. anglica, and will never be insulted by such.

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Casper you missed my point ENTIRELY from the last thread. I would also advise you not to go starting a new one when a previous one was locked. Now to address your issues. I did say it was fine to post a message if anyone has extra plants.  PROVIDED it is not a post asking/begging for free plants.  I did not say a trade post must have items for trade.  Although odds of finding what your looking for are much better when an offer is visible to the readers.

Example of appropriate trade posts.
Anyone have any extra Sarracenia for my new bog garden.  Let me know and we can work out a trade!  (perhaps include what you have to offer in return)

Example of inappropriate post.
Anyone have any extra Sarracenia for my new bog garden for free or for shipping?

The first post your making an effort to give in return.  IE TRADE
The second post your trying to get something for nothing.

You have extra seed/pyg. gemmae whatever.. Want to give it away fine go ahead.  Post you have it and your giving it away.  If you don't think your one plant of D. capensis is worth posting that you have it for giveaway then don't.  Personally I don't think it matters if you have 100 or 1.  If you have something you want to give away then post.  If it's not worth your trouble to post that you have a single plant to give away and would rather wait to 'respond' to someone begging for a free plant then that's your perogative.  Begging posts however detract from the forum, are rude, they upset some people that regularly give away plants (the moderators have received messages expressing such concern), and push legitimate posts from people trying to organize trades down the list.

Also bear in mind:
This is a trading forum not a beg for free plants forum.  CLEAR?

This is a private forum and it has rules.  It is not a public forum.
The previous post was not for debate.  There had been a large number of people making posts recently that they want free stuff and I addressed it.  

Tony

I will leave this post open for now but I do not want this to turn into an argument or a major debate.  It is quite simple and clear.  Posts looking for free goods are inappropriate in this forum.

 

[Casper]

Then we shall agree to disagree.

Casper

 

[phlitrapguy]

Hey Guys,

ok... so. The trading post was set up to do just that "trade". There was a clear gap in the world for people to do legit trading of their private collections. We've been VERY light on the rules around here, but what you don't see, is what the mods and Admins and MOSTLY myself have to deal with. When people come in here ASKING for stuff... FREE stuff without a trade, I get my mail box full in about 20 minutes of complaints. Most saying "This is rude, you should delete the topic". Generally I agree that it's rude but I almost never delete a topic... so I've let it go.

There's a large number of people who do trades on here all the time and quite a few that just post free stuff for anyone. So I think the point is, Casper, is that when people blatantly ASK for stuff, it's starting to look pushy and disrespectful. Imagine what the people that offer free stuff on occasion feel. Or people that do trades. It's a sort of pushy rudeness when someone comes in here and screams "I WANT FREE STUFF, NOW GIVE IT TO ME!" --- not that's what you've done... but it's happened enough in the past that unfortunately your post raised it to the level of having words about the "Rules".

So, don't take it personally, but .. understand where the mods stand... and where other uses may think this is just .... rude.

 

[cool85k5]

To get down to the point,I think what Casper is saying(me included) its ok to ask for free plants/seed,but I dont think it's right if they pm/email you asking for plants.I get free stuff here alot,but if I have something to trade I will.Why cant we have a (Free plants for postage) section?But then it would full of people,right?People that send pms or emails demanding plants should be reported to a mod,but I still think they should be able to ask for free stuff if they post it..

                             Jerry

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Jerry,

To the point.. sure. No it is not ok for people to post asking for free stuff.

You see these types of posts all the time which should tell you how truely lenient we really are. But when they seem to get out of control or we receive complaints then a reminder is often posted. Many times it is from new folks that don't realize which is understandable. We have new folks joining frequently. But there has to be some sort of effort at control or the TRADE forum will get overrun with people just posting asking for free plants. The moderators try and balance things out. As it stands now several people that regularly post give away threads are considering to no longer do so because of an overabundance from people starting topics looking for handouts. This is unacceptable. I would rather put a stop to these begging posts than have the generous people of this forum stop being so generous in the future.

Tony

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

I try pretty hard to send out my extra material on a regular basis, and I do not expect trades from anyone who responds to my offers. I know it is easy to assume that because of my sharing ethic, which I have so frequently spoken out on that I am willing to share anything extra that I have.  This is correct: I want everyone to have what I have!  What some people don't realize (or have forgotten) is that these projects are involved, confusing, time demanding and often expensive.  I can ALWAYS send out material.  I always have seed, gemmae and plants to give away - but sometimes I just need a break for awhile, to recharge the batteries.  There are many plants that *I* would love to have, but I will not ask for them.  When they are offered, I will gladly respond to the offer, and with many thanks.  This requires a little patience and trust that such wanted items will be made available, when the time is ripe for the offer to be made.

Legitimate trade offers deserve to remain on the front page for as long as possible, and asking for freebies is pushing these items off the page.  This isn't what trade is about.

We have addressed this issue in the past, and have discussed it on the Mod Forum.  It may be that sometime we can set up a separate sub-forum for people's "wish lists" - I am in favor of this.  This would free up the trade forum for the purpose it was intended for.  This way, if I am feeling generous, I can choose to browse the topic, or otherwise ignore it.

We aren't trying to peanalize anyone for having the desire to acquire more plants, but the trade forum is not the place for this.

The following is how I feel.  This is not company policy, and is adressed to no one in specific.

Good etiquitte in regards to trade IMO is:

1) Never to ask outright for anything.  If you can't trade, then be patient, and wait for the many generous offers.  If you express a keen interest, show you have the skills and interest, this should be sufficient, and the plant you long for will come to you in time when it is at all possible.  One thing about the CP community that I love is how much people want to share these plants.  It's all just a matter of time before someone shares what you are looking for.

There is always something to trade.  Compensation can come in many ways: be creative!  I have had some very nice thank you's from people without anything to trade, but would not ever think of accepting anything just "for free". Those kind are out there too! {I've had all sorts of things sent to me: veggie garden seed, plastic baggies, stuff for the growroom, marbles, plant stakes (I collect them) I didn't ask for them, but they were certainly pleasant and welcome!}  

PM's are always an option for the truely "urgent" moments when reason and etiquette crumble.  "We can work something out" can go a long way in opening avenues of discussion.  I have been known to cry and whine, blubber and moan (and everything just shy of begging) to friends who understand my addiction, but would never consider this with anyone I was less personal with!  With such, I express my interest, demonstrate my skills, and hen if it happens, it happens.  If it don't, I bite my belt and fix my dreams on "the next time".  There is always a next time.

2) Never ask someone "Where did you get this plant", unless it is in private, and even then expect the short answer, "from a friend" if it from a private non-commercial source.  The worst way to thank someone for their generosity to you is by setting them up for many additional demands that they might not care to have made in their own offering.  It also puts the person so questioned in a very hard place, and it is the worse faux pas in CP Society!  A special gift is just that SPECIAL, and sharing this sort of information is a very bad way of "sharing the wealth".    Whenever someone emails me with a request, I feel if I dont respond in the affirmative, then I will be seen as ungracious: and many other's feel the same way.  For this reason, I adopt the attitude of "a gentleman never tells".  Asking for a personal contact to go begging from is just downright rude.  It would be better to ask if the person would be willing to arrange an introduction

3) When you receive something, a thank you is in order.  Even if you paid the shipping.  In fact, even if you bought the plant outright.  Nursery owners are always looking for good feedback about what they send.  Without it, they can't assess problems, give staisfaction, and remain generally in the dark.  A quick email "got the plant, it arrived well" or "The plant was packed poorly and suffered" can make a lot of difference in quality control, and fixing mistakes.  Thanking one for a private gift is just common courtesy and goes with out saying anything more.

4) Make a dilligent effort not to waste what was given to you.  Study and learn how to have the best chance of success, and when you do (and you will if you do the homework!) share in turn what was given to you, remembering that there are many hungry (and hopefully patient) growers out there slavering like a VFT in a bugless month for those plants.   If you can't find the subject of any interest as far as research goes, why bother wanting to grow the plant?  Leave it to the care of someone with a higher degree of interest or skill.  Be honest with yourself as to your real interest or skill when you respond to the offerings made here.  


So saying, I am sure I have broken all these rules myself at one time or another.  No excuse though (!!!), and if I did well.... wash my mouth out with soap, yuk!

Finally,  I want to say although we often have the *illusion* that this is a free, public and totally open board, there are in fact rules and etiquette that need to be followed.  Once a post is deleted by a Mod or Admin., this needs to be the END of it, and if there is need of further debate, then it should be restricted to, and posted on one of the "Free Speech and Flame Forums", with which this Forum has no affiliations.  Anything less than this is begging (hee hee, on topic pun) for trouble!  It's a good thing Tony had a romantic and relaxing weekend!  If I had locked a topic and it was reopened things would have gone a whole different way considering what my week was like!

This is an example of how moderators moderate moderators, and kudos to Tony for doing such a great job of peacekeeping.

OK, that's my Emily Post (pun intended). Thanks for hearing my views out (and again, these are my own personal opinions), and I look forward to continued sharing with all as I am ready, able, and willing. (Hey, 2 outa 3 ain't bad, but I'm pushing for 3 outa 3).

 

[Casper]

Tamlin, first of all, great post.

You for one know of me. You know that I take nothing for free, and I actually enjoy helping out.

A seperate forums for requests is an excellent idea. I will quell all issues of this debate.

As far as what you said about the locked thread, I must disagree. The thread was locked without good cause imo. Yes, there are rules, but maybe those rules arn't the best wishes of the community. This is a private forum, and the goal is to keep the buisiness interestes in mind for PFT, but lets face it, someone asking for a free nep hybrid is not hurting PFT's buisiness (unless they started selling hybrids very recently

)

In my opinion, everything is open for debate, if it isn't, then lock the thread upon creating it, don't allow a few replies, get the last word, then lock it. Thats just plain rude to me.

While I agree with both you and Tony, I still don't think a newbie should be shut out of the opportunity to request a plant simply because he doesn't have a trade to offer. A new forum for freebies (and requesting freebies) would solve the entire issue.

Casper

 

[cool85k5]

I second the motion for a Plants for free forum

cant we all just get along

Jerry

 

[Nflytrap]

Obviously this depends on how polite people are when asking.

I could qualify as one of those 14 year olds you were talking about there...and I've so far received a N. x ventrata from the very generous Capslock(hope you don't mind me saying this Caps!). This obviosuly helped me along in the hobby...as it would have been very difficult to fork up something for trade and whatnot. Unless someone wants a clump of java ferns for a cp then that would work out for me...

I feel that this idea for a forum could work, but who will fill all the orders? Will people get mad when, say, someone has some sars and fills another person order and doesn't send one to him? How will say, NickHubbell feel, come spring, when he is bombed with blunt requests for the ventrata cuttings?

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

I will not try to reiterate what Tamlin has said (and did so quite well), but will state that from my past experience on this forum, that allowing people to ask for free plants failed.  It failed in that some people got this strange idea that someone had to give them a plant if they asked for it.  Politely or otherwise.  There was more than one post were someone had the audacity to bluntly say "Give me a (insert name of plant of your choice)" and yes they were serious.  I do not miss those types of posts and think that with the generosity of the people on this forum, that posts asking for free plants are unnecessary.  All the person has to do is have patience and eventually they will find the plant they want being offered by someone.

Steve

 

[wezx]

me too, i could qualify for one of those 14 year olds, i have recieved some sundews and neps from some very genourous people, that has gave me boost start, now they are flowering and i have something to trade!
I think that people should ask for free stuff very indirectly and polite(if possible ) so that it dosent annoy anyone and the giver (if there is one)will feel that he is offering the plant/seed... [i dont really know how to say this]
for example for a newbie:
when the community talks about there gemination rate, you can post "My germination rate was only about 10% and all the seedlings turned black

"
then someone might offer you seeds
ive got free stuff with something like this kind of method and everyone was happy.
Another way is to ask if a local nusery sold the plant you wanted

thats just my opinions

 

[Glenn]

I like Tamlin's idea of a want list/request forum. This is a good non offensive way to let people know what your looking for. We all have plants we want or even dream about. Grow lists could be posted with your request to help facilitate trades. Also, the supplier of the material can decide if its for free or a trade.

I think the trading forum works fine. If something is being given away it is always stated that way in the post. Trade means trade and free means free

Glenn

 

[schloaty]

My Goodness! Say off line for a whole weekend, and see what you miss?
Remember, there is always the ways things SHOULD be....and the way things actually ARE.

You SHOULD be able to politely ask for free stuff because people SHOULD not abuse this. HOWEVER (there's always a however, right?), people DO abuse this rule, so it had to be changed. Just because you are respectful and patient about your request doens't mean that Joe Shmoe is. Unfortunately, to protect the forum against the Joe Shmoes, there has to be a "please don't ask for free stuff" rule.
BCK is right. Someone WILL eventually offer what you want. Either save you pennies, or just wait. A little patience goes a long way. This IS a hobby of patience, after all!

 

[Pyro]

I think Scholaty makes the most lucid point here. The decision to restrict the 'I want free plants' style post comes more from the past abuses than the current issue. Bear in mind that not all of you have been here from the beginning and you have not seen everything that transpires (both openly and behind the scenes.) The Mods and Admin make the decisions for the greater good, and unfortunatly that does mean some toes might get stepped on. We don't like to do that but sometimes we must.

Casper, I feel a need to address somethings you said:

Quote[/b] ]As far as what you said about the locked thread, I must disagree. The thread was locked without good cause imo. Yes, there are rules, but maybe those rules arn't the best wishes of the community. This is a private forum, and the goal is to keep the buisiness interestes in mind for PFT, but lets face it, someone asking for a free nep hybrid is not hurting PFT's buisiness (unless they started selling hybrids very recently  )

You say the thread was "locked without good cause" but it is just your opinion. Just believing something does not make it so, I can be of the opinion that if I can just flap my arms hard enough I can fly but I'll learn the lesson the hard way if I throw myself off a parking deck to try and prove my opinion. Mods don't act on opinion, if something is done there is a good cause for it.

I also do not like the implication that the Mods are not working for the best for the community. You are arguing that the thread should not have been deleted because it isn't your wish and you (want to) believe others agree. The reality is exactly like Phil said, whenever a post goes up that is essentially demanding free plants the Mods get bombarded with PMs asking that it be dealt with. So bearing that in mind, the wish of the community is that free plant requests not be posted and so the Mods were correct in their decision to delete the thread.

Lastly, your final sentence is irrelevant to the debate at hand. It isn't about keeping business for PFT, it is about keeping the Trade Forum from being filled with 'Gimme Gimme', 'I want this now', 'Mine Mine Mine' and 'Fork it over' type posts. Now I am not saying that your post was one of those but if the rule was not in place then that is exactly what the Trade Forum would become. And I know this because the reason the rule was made in the first place is that there was a point when the first 2-3 pages of the trade forum where nothing but demands for free plants.

I understand what you are saying. I really do. Tony does as well hence his post detailing right and wrong ways to ask about plants. But just because you don't like the rule doesn't mean that the rule is wrong or that the Mods are working against the wishes of the community.

To draw a rather extreme example, as American citizens we are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursute of happiness. However, that does not mean you can throw cinder blocks off of overpasses on to passing cars and then claim it is okay because that is what makes you happy.

 

[Casper]

Pyro:

First off, I didn't make a request for free plants, I was just stating my opinion and belief on a topic that I had a view on.

I said I didn't agree with the locking of a thread because I didn't see any harm in the discussion of the topic. The very same topic that has gone on for 2 pages, quite harmlessly if you ask me. Now, I am not screaming censorship or all the other nonsense that others have, and I do understand why he locked it. This is a forum. Forums are for people trading ideas and opinions.

I surely don't recall making the implications that the Mods arn't working hard for this board, and if I did, I truly apologize. I know the mods work hard, and they take a lot of abuse, for basically, a thankless job. I salute all of you, but being a mod doesn't make you "right". I disagreed with something, and didn't see the harm in discussing it. As of now, I have a much better understanding of why the rule was implemented.

So, at the end of the day, this thread hasn't caused any harm, and has given at least a few a better understandomg of a rule. No harm no foul if you ask me.

To re-iterate what I said earlier, I never meant to imply that mods don't strive to make our community a better place, and if anyone got that message, than I apologize, it was never my intent. Your all a good bunch of people, and I know that you work to give us a better place to chat.


Casper

 

[Pyro]

Casper,

I am Pyro not Ozzy

Seems I mis-interpreted what you said:

Quote[/b] ]Yes, there are rules, but maybe those rules arn't the best wishes of the community

And I took that to mean that by enforcing the rules the Mods were not working for the community. Too much extrapolation on my part and I apologize