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Jungle Harvested N. viking seeds on eBay

  • #21
I would think that the 2% wild survival rate would be a strong argument for leaving seed pods in the wild. With such a low survival rate wouldn't that make it more important to leave pods in the wild?

xvart.
 
  • #22
The thing about the guy having money or not: I was making a statement that many people in that area earn maybe $500 a year, and therefore, a lot of locals do collect plants like neps and others in order to feed themselves. Apparently this isn't one of those cases, which is fine; I was simply stating most of the persons in that area are subject to those conditions. And about the guy being "rich" because he has the internet: internet is free at the library, and just because you have access to a computer doesn't mean you "obviously have plenty of money".

Pinguicula and Nepenthes have different germination/survival rates in the wild. The 2% quoted is for neps only.

Like I said, if you understand Nepenthes population dynamics, you will see that someone collecting seed will not interfere with the population as a whole unless they are harvesting all or nearly all of the seed.


EDIT to answer xvart:
Of course not. If a female has a seed set of 1000, and only 2% germinate, you're going to get 20 seedlings, not 20 individuals. Out of those 20 individuals, maybe 3-5 will make it to maturity. If you collect 400 seed (a lot), the probability even then of getting one of the "plants" that would eventually make it to maturity is surprizingly low. Even if you did, and you get 19 seedlings in the wild, from that, you're still going to get about 3-5 eventual mature individuals.
In terms of conservation, which I believe is an issue for LOCALS, collecting seed and growing it out, at least for a few months, then replanting it in the habitat is the only probable and logical solution. Not only is that solution the easiest and most cost effective (because its free except for the labor and a few jelly jars to keep soil in), but you strengthen the wild population considerably, greatly increase genetic diversity, and by increasing the wild population, lower the "rarity", and therefore the price these plants will bring, and ergo the pressure for them to be collected; regardless of the legality of collection.
 
  • #23
I agree, for the conservation minded locals, at least. The odds of the seeds being sold on ebay being replaced back into the wild for conservation purposes is very low, if not nil. I would think that for certain extremely endangered species, one or two seed pods can be a big deal, even if they only yield one or two seedlings from a seed set of 1000.

xvart.
 
  • #24
"People have been wild collecting and utilizing plants since the beginning of people."

Yes, and look at the number of species that are extinct or endangered -especially the tropical hardwood trees.

"I highly doubt this guy collecting seed, even to a greater extent, is going to cause some sort of catastrophe, as you are making it out to seem. Please educate yourself on the probabily of nep seed becoming a mature individual in the wild, and please please learn a thing or two about population dynamics."

1) Well, now that we have your assurance I feel better.
2) I do know a thing or two about population dynamics
3) Your statistical anaysis of the situation is the most convoluted logic I have seen recently - the odds of collecting one of the seeds that would make it to maturity is low so its ok to collect seeds might work if there is only 1 collector involved - are you gauranteeing that there are not hundreds of collectors and all of the "wild seeds will not be taken?

"The only thing that possibly needs to be changed for long term survival of a species is the circulation of MORE seed and MORE seedgrown plants."

I couldn't agree more - how about using the material that is already in cultivation. Now before you start with the genetic diversity crap - unless the material is going to be replanted in the wild from personal collections (not necessarily a viable or good idea) genetic diversity is not an issue. Most people grow a plant because it looks nice, not to do a DNA profile to make sure its genetic make-up is up to par.

"Here's a pretty good thread to start, including commentary by quite a few experts:
http://pitcherplants.proboards34.com...ead=1182557621
If you want to continue to masquerade as an expert in regard to these topics, please start posting in that forum."

I looked at the link you provided, all I saw was a bunch of individuals argueing their personal points of view - not 1 unified vision about the collection of material.
 
  • #25
Holy bags of hot air! Stop it the forums will float away!
 
  • #26
Hey, if it can withstand the evolution, religious, political, and what is the easiest Drosera threads it can survive this too. I personally am still recovering from the drink metal to cure the rotting toe thread from a year or two ago.
 
  • #27
buster,

again...awful argument. Please provide some actual facts or proof of some sort that you know what you're talking about instead of just saying "you're wrong".

"genetic diversity crap"? Man you really do have no idea what you're talking about do you? The fact that people grow plants that look good is the exact reason why relying on TC is not a viable means of protection of the gene pool for a species. Also, lets say some people make species seed. If for example, there are only 3 clones of a certain plant (talangensis lets say), and species seed is made by collectors back and forth amonst the clones, at least for 2 or 3 generations, that is not going to help the talangensis gene pool. After a certain threshhold is broken in terms of a number of wild-collected seed grown plants in cultivation, then producing and growing out species seed from these plants would be a great idea. Growing from seed will naturally weed out the slower/weaker plants, regardless of if its in the wild or in the greenhouse. Using TC also mass-produces the slower growing and/or more finicky clones that wouldn't have made it to maturity in the wild anyway. If is such a horrible idea, provide some alternative instead of just telling me its bad. Its easy to point the finger and say somethings wrong, but harder (and I guess for some painful) to think of a better way to do it. If you had read the whole topic instead of skimming it, you would've seen that I've already covered the topc of if "everyone" took seed. Its just not going to happen. There are only a handful of people that know the location of globosa, and regardless, not everyone of them is going to tell everyone they know, every one of which who is going to collect seed. Its just not going to happen. This is like saying you're going to get hit by lightning while in a submarine...possible yes, probable...absolutely not.

Though you call my logic "convuluted", I'd rather have it than your lack thereof.
 
  • #28
Stop the fighting! I didn't make this topic for that! :(.
 
  • #29
I find it amusing you berate me for "not showing actual facts or proof of some sort instead of just saying you're wrong" then write

"I've already covered the topc of if "everyone" took seed. Its just not going to happen. There are only a handful of people that know the location of globosa, and regardless, not everyone of them is going to tell everyone they know, every one of which who is going to collect seed. Its just not going to happen."

That sure sounds like your opinion to me - I don't seem to be able to discern the factual portion of that statement.

I also never mentioned tissue culture. I'm all for growing plant material from seed - all my statement said was lets produce seed from the already collected material.

Genetic diversity crap - perhaps if you care to reread my post I implied that the genetic diversity arguement is irrelevant for the average person growing a pretty plant in a pot at their home. I understand the need for genetic diversity in an in situ population, but please explain to me why it makes any difference if plant place XYZ sells a million plants with the exact same genetic make-up to plant growers- none of them or their offspring , or theirs, etc, are ever going to make it back into the wild. "Captive plant" genetics and the wild population gene pool are 2 distinct things.

I also think you're being a little too sensitive- I never said you were wrong about anything- the part of your statement I have a problem with is your implication that since only a small amount of seed will germinate in the wild it will do no harm to collect seed from those plants. This is apparently a philosphical difference we have- and no amount of your insults will change my mind about that. By the way - I am quite content with my biology credentials and would be happy to match them with yours degree for degree.

also this is not fighting- this is the exchance of ideas and opinions- sometimes exchanges can get intense but that is how ideas are discussed and information is passed along. You want fighting go to a convention of scientists.
 
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  • #30
I'm sorry...
 
  • #31
Yeah NeciFiX....that convo is intense, but not fighting. As buster1 said...thats more or less how science debates go haha
 
  • #32
I would think that the 2% wild survival rate would be a strong argument for leaving seed pods in the wild. With such a low survival rate wouldn't that make it more important to leave pods in the wild?

xvart.


Ur correct.
 
  • #33
Sexism always makes for a GREAT way to get your point across. Good on ya, mate.

Give me a break. You have to draw the PC line somewhere. This is too much. First of all, he said "little girl" referring to childish. I highly doubt you would have used this argument had he said "little boy". Stop trying to gain brownie points.
 
  • #34
Give me a break. You have to draw the PC line somewhere. This is too much. First of all, he said "little girl" referring to childish. I highly doubt you would have used this argument had he said "little boy". Stop trying to gain brownie points.

It's not about being PC, it's about having some sort of regard for SOME vestige of respect for SOMETHING.


As for the issue at hand: Phission, you and I are arguing, largely, two different things. I in no way disagree that genetic diversity is a great thing. Genetic diversity not only helps keep plants in clutivation from suffering the affects of inbreeding, but we also get an assortment of phenotypic variability which means that not only can we start with more diverse looks, but there's more interesting crossing possibilities. Yes, it's great, I've taken "a biology class" before. lol

However, my point of contention lies in the harvesting practices of said materials. Whether it be seed or otherwise. As I've stated many a time, today we're seeing more and more proper channels open that ensure safe collection methods. Sometimes those legislations can be a hinderance or a pain in the rear, however, it's important to realize that there's a balance to be struck between the demand for seed/plant material and natural population health.

In large part, if a person is circumventing the legal channels, it's not out of the realm of possibility to belive that what they're doing may not be for the best for the plant communities.

No one is contending that genetic diversity in cultivation is a good thing, the problem is HOW to introduce new genetics to the pool without damaging the source. I mean, otherwise you can just as well say "yay for poaching" because you're getting fresh genetic material. See what I mean?
 
  • #35
I'd also like to note that of the very small amount that germinate, and then out of the smaller amount that flower, only about 30% will be females.


If my math is correct, that's just 3 females per 2,000 seeds produced. That's not a lot, and there is a big demand for females regardless of what they look like. Taking a little seed illegally leads to taking a few cuttings illegally, and then before you know it they are ripping out entire plants. Look at what happens to Sarracenia.


I'm all for taking seeds, cuttings and plants. It's fine and dandy IF it's legal. Poaching is poaching regardless of how poor you are or how native you are. If you support people taking seed illegally, you support poaching and it's just that simple.


I'd also like to remind everyone that ALL of this is speculation, and for all we know the seller may be doing everything legally.
 
  • #36
I'm all for taking seeds, cuttings and plants. It's fine and dandy IF it's legal. Poaching is poaching regardless of how poor you are or how native you are. If you support people taking seed illegally, you support poaching and it's just that simple.
That's what this whole thing boils down to. Do you believe in upholding the laws that are in place to protect plants from careless or greedy harvesting practices or not? It doesn't matter what reasons the person has for collecting plant material. If it's not done legally, then it is by definition, illegal. Any one who says they support the laws and then buys illegaly collected plant materials is a hypocrit.
 
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