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Major seed poaching

Sig

Eats genetically engineered tomatoes
Searching for nep seeds, I found a ton of listings by this guy. His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.) While he *might* have had a good personal collection with plants native to indonesia, this listing for FIFTEEN THOUSAND bicalcarata seeds just SCREAMS "poacher". He has dozens of listings and hundreds of sales... This guy needs to be taken off ebay, even if it's just long enough to save some plants from him.

Please take a minute to report him, enough should at least get him suspended.
 
I agree, I am saddened that ebay has turned into a hive of seed poachers. I've seen the transition get worse and worse in just the last year. It's even sadder that some of us in the hobby continue to give people like this a reason to to do what they do.
 
His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.)

Not really. Let's look at the CITES Appendix I, II, and III

For Nepenthes:
Appendix I: N. khasiana and N. raja
Appendix II: N. spp #4 (except species included in Appendix I)

Note #4:
#4 All parts and derivatives, except:
a) seeds (including seedpods of Orchidaceae), spores and pollen (including pollinia). The exemption does not apply to seeds from Cactaceae spp. exported from Mexico, and to seeds from Beccariophoenix madagascariensis and Neodypsis decaryi exported from Madagascar;
b) seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers;
c) cut flowers of artificially propagated plants;
d) fruits, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genus Vanilla (Orchidaceae) and of the family Cactaceae;
e) stems, flowers, and parts and derivatives thereof, of naturalized or artificially propagated plants of the genera Opuntia subgenus Opuntia and Selenicereus (Cactaceae); and
f) finished products of Euphorbia antisyphilitica packaged and ready for retail trade.

So only seed for N. khasiana and N. raja are subject to CITES restrictions. Receiving seed declared as "Craft Items" at worst would be violations of US custom and Plant Protection and Quarantine laws. If the Indonesian authorities were to inspect the package and the shipper was in violation of any Indonesian laws they would go after the shipper. If the US authorities were to inspect the package they would go after the recipient for possibly smuggling, violation of Plant Protection and Quarantine regulations etc.

As for the rest I have no idea what Indonesia's laws are reqarding Nepenthes or even poaching. Perhaps the seller owns land with Nepenthes on it or resells seed from other owners of private land.

Report the seller as you feel you must but I doubt eBay will do anything.
 
I am of two minds about the whole issue, since I know of people in Southeast Asia who have routinely collected seed from sites that were either eventually lost to logging, housing developments, or to the building of lavish resorts for Westerners. Seedpods of many species -- orchids in particular and some Nepenthes -- can yield upwards of ten thousand plants in a commercial setting; whereas, the tiniest fraction of that seed-set (typically seen in the single digits) ever reaches maturity in the wild, due to competition, grazing, disturbance -- any number of factors.

One of the gravest issues is that CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) makes no distinction between the differing reproductive strategies of elephants, whales and primroses (single births versus thousands or tens of thousands); and sometimes consigns seed and plant material to the same lists as ivory, rhinoceros horns, and tiger penises. The point has been made that it is perfectly legal to flood a habitat for a reservoir; to log entire forests for tropical wood for an ugly Ikea coffee table; to completely denude a hillside -- yet it is highly illegal to salvage or trade in anything from a site listed on CITES Appendix I. That includes seed, pollen, leaves -- even the importation of century-old herbarium specimens for study.

I have a few seed-grown plants from a site in East Mindanao, from an area that has since been completely deforested. Had those species been listed with CITES, even the possession of those plants -- even though salvaged from bulldozers and chainsaws -- would be highly illegal . . .
 
@Bella
Sort of reminds me of the quote...

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France
 
@Bella
Sort of reminds me of the quote...

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

Nice quote; though I think I prefer the Machiavelli line (heh, heh, heh) -- loyalty to a fellow countryman and all that . . .

 
Searching for nep seeds, I found a ton of listings by this guy. His location is Indonesia, and he says he'll label the seeds as crafting material (a major cites violation right there.)

False accusation - malicious prosecution!

Cites regulations are not involved while offering most Nepenthes seeds.
Cites says for appendix II species:

> All parts and derivatives, except:
>
> a) seeds ...

Seeds of WA II species under CITES regulations are NOT protected by CITES.

Whether the seeds are obtained by "poaching" or by "collecting wildflower seeds" has nothing to do with CITES or international laws.

So before blaming the seller at eBay, you better think twice and find a better accusation than "a major cites violation" (which it isn't).
 
False accusation - malicious prosecution!

Cites regulations are not involved while offering most Nepenthes seeds.
Cites says for appendix II species:

> All parts and derivatives, except:
>
> a) seeds ...

Seeds of WA II species under CITES regulations are NOT protected by CITES.

Whether the seeds are obtained by "poaching" or by "collecting wildflower seeds" has nothing to do with CITES or international laws.

So before blaming the seller at eBay, you better think twice and find a better accusation than "a major cites violation" (which it isn't).

Calm down jessie..although the OP may be wrong in stating cites violation and poaching..the seller is offering to mark the seeds as craft itmes which is fraud.
 
Chibae it's not fraud that would be taking the $$ for Nep seed and actually sending craft items. What this intentionally mislabeling contents on a customs form is, is called smuggling and is what garners someone far higher fines than the initial crime of receiving seeds without a permit. Which is the only crime for US customers - they need a seed importation permit. When the package is mislabeled however, then it becomes far more serious.
 
  • #10
Chibae it's not fraud that would be taking the $$ for Nep seed and actually sending craft items. What this intentionally mislabeling contents on a customs form is, is called smuggling and is what garners someone far higher fines than the initial crime of receiving seeds without a permit. Which is the only crime for US customers - they need a seed importation permit. When the package is mislabeled however, then it becomes far more serious.

Thank you, for correcting that for me. BTW..I did report this seller to ebay, but it was about the offer to intentionally mislead authorties, not about cites or poaching.
 
  • #11
I am of two minds about the whole issue, since I know of people in Southeast Asia who have routinely collected seed from sites that were either eventually lost to logging, housing developments, or to the building of lavish resorts for Westerners. Seedpods of many species -- orchids in particular and some Nepenthes -- can yield upwards of ten thousand plants in a commercial setting; whereas, the tiniest fraction of that seed-set (typically seen in the single digits) ever reaches maturity in the wild, due to competition, grazing, disturbance -- any number of factors.
.

The person is completely commercial. You don't take 15,000 seeds because you want to spread the joy around and help the species survive.

And what the listing says is also worth mentioning: "HARVESTED IN MAY 2011 - stored in refrigerator"

Lowland seeds stored for three months in the refrigerator. Forget the 40-50 plants, at the low end, that might have survived to adult hood... Almost zero chance any will even germinate now.

I might be wrong about CITES, but there are still several reasons the listings are illegal. And I'm sure you can all agree that what this person is doing is wrong.
 
  • #12
And what the listing says is also worth mentioning: "HARVESTED IN MAY 2011 - stored in refrigerator"

Lowland seeds stored for three months in the refrigerator. Forget the 40-50 plants, at the low end, that might have survived to adult hood... Almost zero chance any will even germinate now.

I might be wrong about CITES, but there are still several reasons the listings are illegal. And I'm sure you can all agree that what this person is doing is wrong.

With all due respect, that is not entirely correct. I have stored a number of lowland seeds of Nepenthes and other tropical species under refrigeration (generally in film containers with silica gel dessicants), often for months at a time; and I have had no problems whatsoever with any lack of germination. Keep in mind that human embryos are often stored in liquid nitrogen at -196˚C (Tbs we're certainly unable to survive). What I will agree with though, is that potentially lying on Customs declarations, is a far more idiotic pursuit than trading in any "suspect" seed.

Further, if the seed were collected on private lands (and we honestly do not know of the actual circumstances), then there is no harm done; and I have known people near the Oregon border who have had huge stands of Darlingtonia on their acreage and thought to sell them to growers rather than allow the deer to decimate them (as they regularly do) . . .
 
  • #13
correct me if im wrong but i do believe the Nepenthes edwardsiana that were released in the last year or so were not from a legal source.....be interested to know if those on their high horse bout this wild collected seed would turn down an eddy offered to them?......
 
  • #14
My high horse is only about the seller stating that they will aid in smuggling by labeling the seeds as something else.
 
  • #15
You do not want to risk getting these mislabled to hide what's really in the package. Trust me on this one.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #16
wasnt commenting on the labeling, was commenting on the "poaching".....
 
  • #17
Well I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of CP enthusiasts have send or received seed from overseas without proper permits and customs declarations under the guise of regular business or personal correspondence. I bet a number of CP enthusiasts have shipped live plants with media from outdoors from quarantine areas (Japanese beetles etc.) to states that restrict movement across the state borders of such media without phytosanitary declarations.

Now who is going to cast the first stone?
 
  • #18
yeah but if yah get caught the fines aint cheap......dont mind that part so much so long as yah know going in the risks.....
 
  • #19
In terms of moral laws, I wouldn't be nearly as annoyed if it was, say, 100 seeds, as are a couple of other listings. But this guy has some 20 different listings at any time with quantities up to the tens of thousands. If someone offered me 50 seeds that they already picked, I would probably accept it. But fifteen thousand? That's nuts.
 
  • #20
Well I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of CP enthusiasts have send or received seed from overseas without proper permits and customs declarations under the guise of regular business or personal correspondence. I bet a number of CP enthusiasts have shipped live plants with media from outdoors from quarantine areas (Japanese beetles etc.) to states that restrict movement across the state borders of such media without phytosanitary declarations.

Now who is going to cast the first stone?

Warren, are you now going to tell me that there's gambling in Casablanca?
 
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