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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

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  • #21
I'll do what I can.


Jerry
 
  • #22
In addition to a U.S. National Collection of plants, an effort should be made to assure that seed is stored at an established Seed Bank. In that way, germ plasm can be conserved. See, for example,
http://www.berrybot.org/cons/cons_seed_bank_links.html

I would REALLY like to see the ICPS Conservation Chairman weigh in on this thread. Whatever is done should be a part of or sanctioned by ICPS.
 
  • #23
The idea of a (Inter)National Sarracenia Collection sounds like a lofty project. The number of plants this involves is likely in the thousands, if not tens of thousands. For a site with a population of less than a hundred plants, three or four plants collected from the site might adequately represent the population's genetic make-up. What about a site with thousands of plants, like the well-known Sumatra red-tube flava site? Would 50 plants collected from such a site be adequate? Please don't think that I'm suggesting we collect plants from the Sumatra site. When you multiply the number of sites, as small as some of them may be, this adds up to a lot of plants. Does a facility exist that could maintain such a collection? As mentioned, this could only be acheived with numerous locations housing the collection and maintaining a seed bank.
Phil Sheridan of Meadowview Biological Research Station already maintains a genetic bank of Virginia Sarracenia in the form of seeds and plants. Virginia truly is in the last stages of wild population Sarracenia existance. Just this year, the largest known population of flava in Virginia was sprayed with a herbicide. Not all of the plants were destroyed, except possibly the Drosera brevifolia population. Luckily, Phil has the material to repopulate the site.
Phil maintains a non-profit organization with similar goals to the Nature Conservancy and Atlanta Botanical Gardens. He not only maintains a genetic bank but, also actively preserves Sarracenia habitat. He is as informed about the status of wild populations of Sarracenia as anyone. I can't speak for him but, feel that he has plenty to offer any kind of organization with ideals of saving Sarracenia. He should be contacted.
Personally, I feel that habitat destruction needs to be curtailed. As well as we think we can grow these plants in a pot, there is no replacement for natural habitat. As this goal is idealistic, I support any attempt to keep a genetic bank. It's better than no action.

imduff
 
  • #24
Thank you all for your int erest support and hard work. Since I can't possibly answer and address each of you in turn, let me inform as to what I am doing.

I have appointed several comissioners to deal with the early formulation of outr concept. In place are committees for Facts and Advisement: a fact finding and information gathering tool which I hope will soon brief me with a list of who's who in the Sarracenia world pertinent to contact and recruitment

Outreachh committee which is currently drafting a who, what, where, when and why prospective which will be included in out initial contact efforts to secure an assembely.

Working to set up a head count poll to assess the numbers of out constituancy.

Some current needs include the inception of a Public Relations committee which I hope will keep awareness up, and help keep the ball rolling, develop a plan of calling public awareness to this project when the time is ripe. If you have expertise in this area please contact me.

I hope soon to generate a web site.

I am assigning interested parties to various committee's where skills and needs meet.

Please understand that this concept is not mine. I am not the Author, and am only acting as pro-tem president. Once we have an assembely, the first o rder of business will be to elect officers to replace the pro tem voluenteer's, at which point I fully intend to step down from this office.

There are some good thoughts being put into words, many ideas which will need to be reviewed and discussed in committee, and presented for eventual review.

Right now, all I am concerned with is a show of hands and the formation of an assembely.

I will do my best to contact each pair of willing hands to delegate responsibility.

A few brief comments to some statements:

Outreach will be involved with soliciting the cooperation and support of many diverse elements of CP Society. That this project is possible has already been demonstrated by Mike King.

The main thrust of the Collection as I see it will not be so much to solicit material from individuals, unless it is accompanied with meticulous collection data and then only after expert review. Rather, it should be a focus of the Collection to reproduce and distribute rare material into the general growing society from certain sources.

This will involve sensitive field collection. Although I too opt for land preservation, it is plainly evident that this will not in and of itself be successful. Extropolating from the last 50 years to the next 50 years paints a dismal and fatal picture for these plants. My feeling is that this material needs to be banked, and soon.

This is a sensitive issue, and I do not know how the ICPS would embrace the idea. This will be part of out outreach efforts, along with contacting the various nurseries involved with Sarracenia sale, herbariums, and conservancy groups.
All will be given opportunity to stand up and be counted.

Decades of study, and reservations regarding the ethics of field collection have not secured these plants. I think the time we can afford to wait for a bright tomorrow is done.

Seeking to obtain and maintain exclusivity with rare forms of Sarracenia in private and commercial stewardship for reasons of ego and potential profit need to give way to a more sound ethic if we are to save these plants. You can't reserve what you wish to preserve. Not any more. We also do not need a score of ardent collectors bent on doing the right thing going out and pulling up every different looking Sarracenia in the name of conservation!

These issues will be resolved in congress, and not by individual decisions.

Finally I ask that no one refer to this effort in any way *my* project. I will cordinate and direct your willingness, but only as a pro-tem officer. Credit for this concept goes to Bugweed and Brooks. I am a Sarracenia novice, and very much require each and everyone's assistance and backing to get the ball rolling.

What we need now are for some members of CP Society with prestige to stand up and be counted. Without such intervention this project will peter out in apathy, and to do this we need to present a serious, intelligent and above all possible prospective to potential sources of this type of support.

So, carry on! If I have made a request of you for specific information, please apply yourself to the work. A coordinated effort like this requires many hands completing what might seem to be minor tasks, but each part depends on all the others. If you can't find the time to act as requested, I ask that you tell me so up front, so duties may be reassigned. I am acting under the assumption that all will be willing to do the work, and if it proves to be impossible, you must let me know. If I have not yet contacted you, be patient. You will soon receive your induction notice.

Please continue to raise awareness, and ask interested parties to come to this thread and be counted.

Our Motto is:

"There is no time for you to be busy". If we are to be in time to save our plants, we *must* make that time!
 
  • #25
AYE!

Finally, I've been trying to think of a way of getting something like this started for a while now, but I'm not nearly experienced enough to have much influence alone in the comunity.  I am proticularly concerned about the S. Purpurea of MI because we have an incredably diverse range of phenotypes living hear.  And as the Northern Varient, few made there way into cultivation before feild collection was compleatly banned.

I was plaining on prosueing permission to collect from a privet bog near by with the hopes of adding one new gene set to the pool that has proper identification and collection data, but if we are able to get this going, it would be much easier to get permission and I would feel better sending some plants and or seeds too a central location for intence propigation.

If we are able to do this onetime collection to help preserve the biodiversity of these plants, I will be more then happy to dedicate my time and skills to both careing for a portion of the collection if needed, and to going into the feild to gather scientific data on plants of each population and if asked, collect these plants to send to the propigators.  I am very close to many local bogs, inclueding a privetly owned bog that is the only one of it's kind (based on species living together) left.  If we can start getting promission to collect from publicly owned bogs the number of unque sites in the area seem almost endless, although each is very small, extrodenarly hard to reach and dwindeling.

I also know of several locations that the purples onced thrived in that some how have moved off the general radar.  With such a large effort in place, it would be much easier for me to contact the current owners of the land in these locations as I would have a legidiment reason for wanting to wander through there back 40 other then to just look at plants while possibly killing myself in the bog, lol.

So yah!  I'm all for it.  AYE!  and whatnot.  Lets get a representive for these little guys to safety!
 
  • #26
I'll help any way I can too. Too bad I'm no longer in Maine, surrounded by a wealth of bogs full of S. purpureas, but at least I can grow the their taller cousins here in CT. Or do whatever else would help. Bruce
 
  • #27
A few thoughts.

Habitat preservation is important!!!

I think we need to get the ICPS to weigh in on this subject.

Seed collection should be the focus not plant collection. Ethical guidelines must be established and adhered to. The established scientific comunity or some such group should be the collectors of the seed for distribution to growers. We can't have a bunch of people raiding bogs.

This is an excelent idea but must be implemented carefully and thoughtfully. Its a good thing Tamlin is heading this up.

I am glad to see this topic taking off.
 
  • #28
Ether seed or a few plants. We shold not take so much that it might harm the populations from witch they are collected, seed or plants.
 
  • #29
Glenn and all, I have already talked to Carl Mazur on this plan months ago. He is writing a proposal for the ICPS Board for consideration. Carl Mazur as most know is the ICPS President. I am also trying to get him on to this Forum to see the positive reactions of all of you, the CP growers, to this idea. Stewardship is another form of Conservation, and every grower who really wants to do something to preserve the plants, and then fight for their habitats, is more than welcome to put in their thoughts. I have to talk to Don Schnell next, as he is a brilliant man with many good ideas, and I will talk to him. Keep thinking!!
 
  • #30
There are some problems with a seed based collection protocol that may or may not be transcended based on the fact that the plants introgress so easily. This will need to be discussed amongst those more familiar with the genetics regarding this genus.

And YES, certainly habitat preservation remains important, but this issue is beyond our current scope and is being addressed by more concerted conservancy action than we can hope to generate.

Some current questions that need decided answers asap will include:

Where will this collection be based (critical because applications for a non-profit organization need to be considered relative to the legalities of that State), who will do the collecting (and this needs to be done by those who are intimate with the populations and the impact this will have), who will do the cultivation and reproduction, where will funds come from.

Right now I am still looking for a listing of who's who in Sarracenia: without this list we cannot begin to assess the needs of our Outreach committee.

A similar list is needed of US commercial dealers involved with the sale of Sarracenia: if anyone wishes to begin this compilation, message me.

Another list is needed of possible funding sources for this sort of effort. If anyone has such a list or can generate it through research, this will ultimately be needed.

I am looking for someone to contact the various CP Societies, as well as send a personal appeal to our members in foreign countries. We want all the support we can muster. If you are willing to work on this project, message me.


Bugweed, see if you can corner Don into writing some formal declaration of support, and secure his permission to use such statements in public posts and publications. You must convince him to step out of retirement, and please set some flame under Carl regarding the ICPS proposal. The fact that Carl is ICPS President is of critical value.

I, too,would like very much to hear Barry's thoughts, pro or con on this subject.

I would also like to see the discussion broached on the various world cp forums and opened on the Listserve. The Listserve is sure to draw FLAME down on whomever broaches the topic, but sooner or later it needs to be done. Listserve members, keep an eye on the posts, and STAND UP and be counted if the topic gets "warm". Don't let the voiceferous few dominate the discussion - make your presence felt but please be polite.

Above all, maintain your enthusiasm and focus. This is a long hard road we are on and there are mountains we can't even see yet that must be climbed.





We need very much to draw in some serious support from the scientific community and I hope ICPS support, but I warn you, this is a HOT topic because it involves field collection. I think the issue of ethical collection has been adequately discussed and remains "grey". There is something to say on both sides of the equation, but my contention is that former "sit back and wait" attitudes are not working. Possible tools to assist in convincing the ICPS might be a petition letter signed by Society members in favor of this collection, which could be circulated amongst the various forums and CP socieites worldwide seeking support for this sort of conservancy.

By all means keep thinking, and please start doing as well.
 
  • #31
I would think...

t is better to have tried and failed...than to have never tried at all.
 
  • #32
Good to see so many people wanting to support this scheme. Just a few things whats going on here:

The National collection scheme is run by an official governing body www.nccpg.com for all genera of cultivated plants. This is a UK based operation and it would be great if something similar happens in the USA. To qualify, one must have 75% of the RHS plants finder list (link on the above mnentioned site). What is important to the conservation is having genetic variation (6 or more individuals from a site is desirable). The bulk of the wild stock here was from Alan Hindle who brought in a lot of rare Sarracenias in the 1980s/90s and basically had plants derived from divisions from that stock. The only snag there is those were selected plants and not neccessarilly the 'average' plant from that area, Thats why some seed collection (sparingly!) is important as that has enough variability to cover must of the gene pools.
Every individual different clone gets a unique code with if available other peoples' code numbers as a cross reference. Obviously cultivars are listed and checked to see if they are genuine if the plant was.

There are now 650 different individuals here which is still being added too. All participants must have a 'master list' to refer to and make a similar cross referencing. But with someone on the scale like Phil Sheridan or ABG would ultimately lead to 1,000s of codes.. one must be practical about it..

I would be happy to discuss this further..
 
  • #33
Ok guys,
First off, thanks for the input so far, there have been some great posts and ideas.

What we need now is SUPPORT. Regardless of your thoughts on how this should proceed, or the process, this is a just and noble cause. It is the RIGHT thing to do. We need people to step up and volunteer your time.

There is a great evil happening as we speak.

These plants are disapearing around us, and once that happens, they are gone forever. That is, unless WE as a community come together and ACT. None of us can do it alone.
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing (Winston Churchill)
 
  • #34
If I can do anything, let me know. Like many others, I am lacking in the financial and time departments, but if any of my collection could go to such a cause as this, I would be glad!!! It sounds like location data is a necessity for this?

SF
 
  • #35
I'm in, I have a few common sars to donate. I can donate some moola as well. I'll help in any way I can, as small as it may be...
 
  • #36
Most excellent! I am willing to do anything that needs to be done.
 
  • #37
I've been skimming, therefore I might repeat a problem which has already been discussed.


From the looks of it...you guys are going to select a few "prototype" plants(enough to maintain diversity if possible) and tag them with a code, put some plants at the bank, and set them free.

Problem is, humans are humans, and we make errors(I've got enough on my part:;): ). Who knows, maybe someone who is keeping some S. leucs sends in some "seed". In reality, the other parent(perhaps by accident, a bumblebee etc.) was actually his S. x Judith Hindle plant that was sitting a couple yards away with his other hybrids which he started with and loved. Perhaps we won't notice the difference, we'll count it as a variation. Its plenty possible considering the slight differences you guys look for in "mystery sars" in the Id forum. It will eventually trickle back to the "bank". A more likely thing is if someone is maintaining several S. flava locations codes sprouts seeds, and some seedlings labels get mixed, or maybe one seed ends up in the wrong pot, or in a pot of sundews and he must ID which code it should be labeled as.

Also a question. do Sars of the same(or different) species from different codes ever exchange genetic information with eachother?


Sounds like a good plan, and if enough dedicated people are available, you guys could make a strong impact.
 
  • #38
Thanks to the latest enlistee's for standing up and being counted.  You will be called!

I am happy to report I have a dedicated Secretary, Jason Wills who is also acting as my "reality tester" and official Devil's Advocate.

A good point Jason has made is that this needs to be kept as simple as possible, and I want to reassure anyone bewildered by the apparent complexities of this that this will indeed be our thrust.

Current committees are needed to allow selective concentration on areas of import.

Mike, thanks much for the information.  Please continue to advise as you will, and if you can work on the who's who list we will be indebted to you.  Anyone else with contact information regarding this list, please send the address information to our Secretary who will maintain the file until we need the information.  This list is very important.

Aides are currently working on compiling a list of Sarracenia Growers in the US.

We have a cover letter almost drafted now soliciting general recruits, and will begin drafting a good letter to bring in interest from commercial growers who may be able to assist us.

It has been suggested that we start a treasury and appoint a pro tem treasurer against the time when we will begin to require postage and expenses relative to contacting potential assistance.  I hesitate in this, since I feel this should come from nomination and election, but I do see the sense in getting this going as early as possible, so i welcome your discussion on this topic.

Once we have good contact information and a show of willing hands from growers, we can begin to compile a list of potential plant material which may currently be held by various growers.  Whether or not such material is acceptable will be open to review, but for now, if you have material that you feel qualifies in your own personal collections, please begin listing such.  By necessity, only material with collection data should be considered and included in your list.  Please send your lists to our Secretary for filing and eventual review.

Jason's email addy is:

jawfccj@yahoo.com

My personal thanks go out all of you for your work, and especially to Jason who I think does not realize what he is in for, but by all accounts seems very capable of doing what is needed.

We have some very good and focused members who are digging right in.

Please continue to solicit new members to come and be counted.  Hopefully over the weekend we will have a poll up to determine what type of support individuals are willing to offer.

I will continue to call on you all with specific requests, and it remains imortant that you either act, or inform me of your inability to act so that I can deal with this.  There is no way I can be aware of all your schedules and consider them.  I will continue to act from the perspective that you will perform the duties as assigned.

Please limit your outside personal correspondance to other agencies, and submit any letter drafts to Quality Control, headed up by Plant-a-kiss for proofing as to consistency before sending them.  We need to provide a unified front.

See you tomorrow, I have been at this now for over 8 hrs and am pretty spent.  Progress is being made though, and this has me optimistic.
 
  • #39
Late breaking news:

We have some good involvement and support now with ICPS President, Carl Mazur who will be drafting a proposal for the ICPS and also working on placement for the proposed collection.

I can breathe a small sigh of relief now, this is what I have been hoping for.
 
  • #40
This emil was sent to my by ICPS President, Carl Mazur:

Greetings group.

I took a quick look at the forum, and I'm afraid of what I'm seeing here.

There is a lot of unfocussed energy, and a lack of vision! As I've mentioned to you before, there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. What I'm seeing is a wrong way happening. I spent many hours talking to
Barry about this idea, and I'd ask that people don't bother him with this.

If you guys want this to be a bonefied, recognized, endorsed and legitmate NSC, then you can't go about it this way.

I realize I've not been working feverishly on getting a proposal
together, but It is important that certain steps are followed in a certain order!!!! In order for this have even a chance of getting endorsed as a legimitate undertaking, it has to start with the ICPS. I would have to be the person
to communicate with the board. Assuming the ICPS endorses it, upholding all legalities that are intertwined into such a thing, then it can move forward.

Without the endorsement of the ICPS, I believe that this cannot move forward as a "recognized" national collection by botanical gardens etc. Especially if distrubition of the plant material is involved. Without all this, it will just be a large list of plants that a bunch of CP enthusiasts are growing in their yards! Hardly the status this deserves.

The other thing, is that I think we all see things from a different perspective here. What is the vision of a National Collection. That is what has to be agreed on and persued. In my lengthly conversations with Barry, taking the point of conserving genepools from rare populations is not
the approach to take. This will make no sense. Basically, you would just have to put a rope around the South East and say this is our national collection. Keeping representative plants from each possible populations make no sense, unless they are appendix 1 plants, or extrememly rare populations, like the GA leuco population or the GA purpurea venosa or
montane populations, but having a flava from every possible ditch, roadside, savannah, make no sense. This is not a conserve the genepool, its conserve the heritage.

Here's how I see it, and how Barry sees it. If this doesn't sound like what y'all want to happen, then you will have to organize this on your own. My understanding of what y'all are invisioning is bascially represntation of every possible population of sarracenia in existance put into someones
backyard. Here's how I see it.

The Southeast is home Sarracenia, and as such, representatives of sarracenias should be conserved as part of the Natual Heritage of the USA. Firstly, all the rare plants should be included, jonesii, alabamensis and oreophila from all sites (sites to be coded, like the codes used by the ICPS
in the alabamensis project) From there, representatives from rare populations should be included, montane purps from GA, NC, flavas from VA, leuco from GA, purpurea venosa from GA etc. This plant are worth depositing just because these particular populations are rare for the state. Then
representative plants from each state should then be deposited, all NC species, all SC species, all GA species etc. From there we should have recognized taxonomic forms and varities and ssp of the species from each state. Next representatives of natually occuring hybrids from each
state. Then we should include interesting color forms, mutations, unique color forms (yellow flowered mutations, antho free forms etc). The fact that a particular plant came from a site 3.2 miles s of RT20 on SR65 in libery co.
FL is NOT important! the fact that another slightly different looking one came from 3.5 miles S or RT on SR65 is NOT imporant! The fact that an anthocyanin free form of S. rosea came from liberty Co. in FL is just fine!
This collection needs to be a collection that represents the diversity of Sarracenia throughout its range and historic range if plant material is avaible, not a snapshot of every possible population is exhistance! If this is what is visioned then its clear, that all the plant material we would need is in personal collections of many growers right now. There is NO NEED
to go out and dig plants, or collect seeds. I'm not saying that if something completely new is found its not worth collecting it (like the albino alata my wife and I found in 2001), but rather, I'm confident that between all our collections, we could have represtation of pretty much
all the sarracenia species, spp, vars, f, and mutations that exist! I consider that my personal collection alone pretty much represents most of what's out there, minus site specific apprendix 1 stuff, but all the material we need
is already in cultivation!!!!! You will never get support for any
project
from the ICPS, or any organization that says, "in order to have a national collection we need to go out collect a bunch of plants/seeds or every population of pitcher plants in exhistance to deposit there" IT WILL NEVER FLY!

Please think long and hard of the vision above, Barry and I have spent many hours discussing how to make such a project fly, in the scenario I presented above, its likely possible to get the support of not only the ICPS but
possible the support of Natural Hertitage programs in various states as well as possible USFW and TNC. Assuming there is support from many of the leaders, I'm sure places like the ABG, national botanical gardens in DC and other Botanical gardens in North America to by in.

There is my 2 cents. If this is the route you want to persue, one of you please email me back and let me know. If that is case, you need to put the ropes on that discussion on the forum, and let me take charge and get it moving (I have been slow, I realize that)! I need to create a very logical proposal to present to the ICPS and other organizations. This proposal
needs to establish a REAL need to establish such a collection and specifically outline all the logistics of how it will start, what will be included, how it will be maintained, by who and where. It will have to be a very well thought out and well prepared document. Assuming I can rally support, I will then come back to you all to start discussing logistics and
soliciting volunteers to aid in the establishment of the collection. If this is not the picture y'all see, then please accept my resignation from this project. What I think you see as vision is not going to fly other than in the backyards of a bunch of growers, (at least in my opinion). I don't think it will be credible unless its supported by a bonefied organization.

Carl


I have replied to Carl that I am willing (gladly) to step out of this if he is willing to assume this pro tem presidency. Carl has made some very good points, and I agree with most of them. Although I feel he has jumped to conclusions in some regards, I feel this is his vision and hope that all will work to support it

We have broached the concept in Forum, and stand ready to assist. This is enough for me for now. IF the ICPS officers truely wish to organize and direct our consitiuancy, let them come forward and take the gavel and proceed.

Brooks and Steve: this is the best I can do for you at present. I see no sense in organizing in a way that is antiproductive to the percieved goals of those who have a clearer focus regarding means and ends. I would ask that members here stand down, but be ready to assist where and when needed on request from Bugweed, Books, or Carl if he will be so kind as to join this Forum and provide such direction.
 
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