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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

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  • #121
A corporation is not required to incorporate in the state of its operations. Its simply paperwork. Since we will be a non-profit, tax implications for doing business accross state lines do not apply.

Paul
 
  • #122
I was thinking a separate forum or sub-category might be helpful. It might help keep various Nat'l Collection related threads from being mixed in with other topics. Also it might draw more attention to the project if it stands out somehow.

By the way...do we have an "official" name for the Collection/Project? Is it "First National Democratic Sarracenia Collection"? Or that something that needs to be decided or voted on? And it should it be plural (CollectionS) since there will be more than one location?
 
  • #123
I was thinking of a central place to house and show sarracenia to show the public and educate them. It could still, as in Mike King's situation, be housed on private land, and maintained by a steward, These plants, as in Mike's case, will not be allowed to produce seed, and divisions will be sent to stewards raising the particular species, or bog of their choice. We do need to get together for a common discussion, all of us, to throw out various ideas, and to vote for the general outline of how we plan to do our job. Because it is a job, and a big one. Nothing is more important than maintaining these plants for the future of our Children and our country. The joy of raising them is secondary to preserving the heritage. Anyone who may have ideas to further us along, say your piece. I still do not like being the only nominee, and want another, so speak up and nominate someone else. It's lonely at the top!!
 
  • #124
Hi Steve,
If I understand the term 'Bog of your choice' you don't mean an 'into the wild transplanting' do you?
 
  • #125
I believe the name is something we should vote on, oviously there won't be complete concensus but it should be a name that holds meaning to everyone. One of the first major problems in the band I formed was individuals from previous bands wanting to carry on their name/"legacy".I'm not particular about names,but I think conservatory in place of collection seems preferable,as collection dosn't seem to adequately describe the means to our end.I mean we all have "collections" and will continue to expand them personally. This is much more than a collection it's a conservation effort unlike any other that has been preposed.Conservation would also adhear to the standards of a NPO.Just my 2 cents "Whats in a name"- John Shlitts,Bob Heartman
 
  • #126
No, Mike. I meant, a steward will be able to recieve plants from the bog of their choice. To care for them, distribute seed and seedling to CP growers for their collections, and enjoy the stewardship they have requested for a particular bog of speciemens. All material will first come from other collections of known locale species and the natural hybrids that survive in that bog. Or they may request the keeping of a certain species alone, but from various bog locations. It is still open for discussion though, and I don't want to get too scattered. I have much to think about trying to keep this simple as possible. Just ideas so far anyway, as there have been no votes taken of any kind.
 
  • #127
I think we should evaluate our goals, needs, and resources. We should also form committees and place people according to their strengths and expertise. Between all of us we can cover all aspects of our endeavor - political, legal, financial, biological, etc... It is obvious that Noah has good organizational skills. Casper is aware of legalities. Tamlin is our impassioned leader. So is Suzanne - the originator of the topic. Who are the biological experts? Keep working with Mr. Mazur, Mr. Rice, Mr. Schnell. I think Noah's suggestion to diversify where we keep plants is a wise one. Take a lesson from the Japanese Koi breeders that ended up with weak, inbred Koi.We need to be able to do tissue culture & infuse fresh genetic material. This Sarracenia conservation project may actually spill over to other endangered CP's. (2 cents)
 
  • #128
I like the word "conservatory"...except it makes me think of a building since it means a greenhouse. Perhaps "conservancy" would be more appropriate?

"an organization or area designated to conserve and protect natural resources"

We have:

National Sarracenia Collection?
First Democratic Sarracenia Collection?
First Democratic Sarracenia Conservatory?
First Democratic Sarracenia Conservancy?
National Sarracenia Conservancy?

Any other suggestions?

Jimscott...I just started the post. It wasn't my idea.
smile.gif
This topic has been in the heads of a number of people, in particular our esteemed Bugweed, and SarraceniaObsessed (Brooks), along with others. I just made the post to get it started. And, sorrowfully, Tamlin will not be our leader. He has stepped down and is currently off the forums.
sad.gif


Hmmm...I'm thinking of setting up that poll I was going to a while back. That might help give us an idea of what people and resources we have here. Let me see if I can find that.
 
  • #129
I prefer National Sarracenia Conservancy. Its short, simple and too the point.

Paul
 
  • #130
I like the name National Sarracenia Conservancy, but I think we should make it the First National Sarracenia Conservancy. The reason?? Not because there will be a second, but because there are already several agencies (government ones at that) with the initials NSC. Do a google search and see if you can count them! FNSC is better in my opinion.

SF
 
  • #131
Lol
"M'am, we are with the NSC /flips down leather badge holder/ we would like to take a look at your bog /flips badge back up/"

Sorry, first thing that popped in my mind. I like FNSC as well. It has my vote.

Paul
 
  • #132
Wow! Wow! Wow!

Man, I get distracted by work, then I come to terraforums and I see enough energy on a conservation project to fuel a mission to Mars!

Very Cool.

OK, so I have a lot to say on this stuff, I don't know if I'll get it all down correctly before lunch, but let's see if I can.

NOTE 1: First off, forget what Carl said about "Not bothering Barry" about this stuff. That's a load of poop. Consider me available at all times for being bothered. My email is barry@carnivorousplants.org, or barry@sarracenia.com, or bamrice@ucdavis.edu. You can PM me here at barry-rice. OK??? Good.

NOTE 2: Carl, bless his heart, DOES NOT SPEAK ex cathedris for the ICPS, OK? So don't take his email to this discussion group as the final word of the ICPS. And CERTAINLY, Carl does not speak for me.

NOTE 3: Yes, the ICPS does have a lot of bureaucracy in it. It sometimes drives me friggin nuts. But I've found that I can usually get stuff done within its confines. But sometimes, things don't mesh with the ICPS mandate---that's fine, so what I've done is work outside it. For example, some of you may remember that a few years ago I got irritated at the US Forest Service for their (in my opinion) mismanagement of some cattle grazing on Darlingtonia land. So I created a very scathing web site. This was done outside of the ICPS domain. It wouldn't have been possible to do it with ICPS cooperation, and so I did it without ICPS cooperation. BUT I DID IT. IT WORKED. Similarly, I'm working on a Nepenthes clipeata project that may involve some cooperation with (shock! shock!) poachers. This is too morally "grey" to be an ICPS project. But it may have conservation benefit so I'm doing it WITHOUT ICPS cooperation.

NOTE 4: OK, so now we come to the idea of endorsements. And is this a good idea? I think that a USA NATIONAL COLLECTION OF SARRACENIA would be a FABULOUS idea. Got that? THIS WOULD BE GREAT!!!!!! Go with your energy, people, make this a project that would work.

That being said, you have to realize (as you have, obviously) that you are promoting something BIG. This isn't just a dinky plan. That means, in order to enhance the likelihood of being successful, you have to draw up a business plan. Your business plan must describe the following things:

PREAMBLE: describe the problem---what is lacking in the current state of affairs. Describe your SOLUTION, what you will do that will fix things. Make your dreams BIG, AUDACIOUS. Remember, if you set your goals too low, then if you succeed, your success with be only minor. Set your goals too high, and that way you will strive for greatness.

1-YEAR GOALS: Describe what you want to achieve in one year. Make these REASONABLE, and VERY DOABLE. Maybe it is just to study the situation, or to form a working group, and to start making connections. Or creating a web site. Or publish a note about your group in 6 journals.
BUT MAKE THIS CONCRETE. You want to be able to look, at the end of the year, and say if you achieved your goals.

3-YEAR GOALS: Describe your goals in three years. Expect this to be getting lofty. BUT BE CONCRETE

7-YEAR GOALS: MORE CONCRETE STUFF.

and so on. The integers you choose for the years, i.e. 3 years, 7 years, whatever, are arbitrary in this email. But it should give you an idea of what you need.

Once you guys develop an action plan, THEN people can look at it and understand what you guys are hoping. My guess is that until you do that, you may have 30 different people with 30 different visions. You have to get your supporters walking and talking towards the same goal.

Once you get an Action Plan (or Business Plan) together and agreed upon, you can start looking for endorsements. For example, I'd be happy to endorse it, and seek official endorsement from the ICPS, but I can tell you that the ICPS would not give you endorsement carte blanche without an idea of exactly what your goals, philosophy, and approach will be. For example, suppose I endorsed your idea without seeing your plan, and I didn't know that you were planning on poaching plants (don't freak on me here, I'm just creating a bad-situation scenario). Your plan would go down in flames as soon as you were caught, and I'd get mud on my face too. This is why a plan is NECESSARY for you guys to be taken seriously.

NOTE 5: Let's imagine a situation where, for whatever reason, the ICPS was taking forever to get off its butt and endorse you (even after you generated your great plan), or for some reason a leader in the ICPS decided your plan was no good. Wellllllll, then thumb your finger at the ICPS and go on ahead without them! Hey, I created the CP FAQ out of nothing but my own time, it started small and now it's huge and really successful.

OK, so I think that's all I have to say right now. I'll be watching with interest this program. I'll look forward to hearing about if you guys decide to include only pure species with provenance information, or hybrids too, or cool sports (such as weird variants) without location information, or cultivar hybrids, etc etc.

Can I help? Not too much right now---I'm completely overwhelmed with work (as well as training for a black belt testing in May!), but I could help in an advisory role (but not a leadership role). I could help you with drafting the business plan, for example. And I'll certainly be interested in donating plants to the cause.

In the future...if it looks like you guys can really pull this off, I suspect that it is quite possible (no promises yet!) that the ICPS might be able to kick in a few thousand bucks/year to help offset operating costs.

GET TO WORK! ANY IDEA WITH ENERGY BEHIND IT IS A GOOD IDEA!

Barry
 
  • #133
Hi Barry,

Good to see your approval!!!! I couldn't imagine that EVERYONE in the ICPS was against this!!
biggrin.gif


You points are well stated and valid, I agree with everything you wrote.

First step will be electing a president who can organize comittees, oversee decisions, etc. to get started.

So let's get on with it!!! Bugweed or Tamlin, could you set a deadline for nominations? Could we set up a vote? Maybe we could make a post about this on the listserve asking for support and asking for nominations from the US cp community not currently visiting this forum. Could we schedule a chat for those interested in being involved to discuss issues involved with setting this up?

-noah
 
  • #134
Talmin wont be available for awhile, so that would be bugweed.

Barry, its great to have you on board!
jumping-smiley-020.gif


Good luck on that blackbelt! My dads one too.
sport-smiley-011.gif
 
  • #135
THANK YOU Barry! I could kiss you! Maybe I will!

We really appreciate you getting behind this project and ANY help/guidance you could offer would be fantastic!

Wooooooooooooohooooooooooooooo!

Suzanne
 
  • #136
Hey Folks,

One thing for you to think about as you proceed with your plans is how much of a "rogue" enterprise you wish to be. Here's what I mean.

If you folks form, and decide to strive alone for your lofty goals without cooperation from other organizations (or government agencies), then that's what I mean by a "rogue" enterprise. As a rogue enterprise you will have the advantage of not having to compromise any of your ideals. You can do exactly what you want, the way you want to. You can be "extreme" or outspoken, etc. I was a rogue element when I took the Forest Service to task about letting cattle trample a Darlingtonia site.

On the other hand, as a rogue element you won't necessarily have support or buy-in with people who could be your allies or sources of support (staff, resources, etc.).

At the other extreme, you could be a concensus builder. You could develop an action plan with representatives from related and useful alliance organizations such as (perhaps) Atlanta Botanical Gardens, North Carolina/Chapel Hill Arboretum, ICPS, US Fish & Wildlife Service, Natural Heritage Programs, etc. You will tend to be more respected in your work, but it will also be much slower to get anything done (since it is necessary to get concensus on your goals and methods). This is more along the lines of what I had to do in order to get the ICPS to be able to distribute endangered species in the USA.

You'll have to chart a course; I'll help advise, but you'll need to have your own energy on this.
 
  • #137
Oh, and another thing.

I think I might have an idea of why Carl Mazur may be negative on the idea of a Sarracenia collection, or why he thinks I am negative about it.

Specifically, I did speak with him at length about this on the phone. I cautioned him that a Sarracenia collection should be considered "conservation" with caution. You see, a bog may have populations of 60 species of wetland plants, only three of which are carnivorous.  Suppose one of those carnivorous populations is a pitcher plant, of which there are 600 plants.

Suppose you took 3 pitcher plants for the National collection.
First off, the 59 other species are out of luck. Also, the genetic diversity represented by the 597 non-collected pitcher plants is not "captured" by your sample. Sure, you did capture for protection SOME of the genetic diversity of that one species, but think of how much you didn't catch.

This is why "ex situ" conservation is always less desireable than "in situ" conservation.

But it is better than nothing....

Perhaps it was these concerns and qualifications which convinced Carl I was not interested in this kind of project.

Later!
 
  • #138
Re: the nomination period:

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tamlin Dawnstar @ Feb. 15 2004,16:29)].............Unless there is a motion to the contrary, this call for nominations will remain in effect for a week: longer if the assembly feels it is needed.


Are there any more nominations for the Office of President of the Sarracenia First National Democratic Collection?

That means the call for nominations ends this Sunday, Feb. 22, 2004 @ 16:29. Unless it is felt more time is needed for nominations.

BCK
 
  • #139
I think all our nominees have declined. Do we have any more nominations...even SELF nominations?
 
  • #140
I have not declined. After a long conversation with "Bugweed" I have decided to accept the nomination as stands. I think this project has the potential to become a reality and I would be honored to head it up.

I would like to hear others thought on this, and to hear anymore nominations at this time.


Paul
 
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