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Hiding vs. publicizing

It looks like a topic was removed because of a concern about publicizing locations of endangered Sarracenias.  I think that's the wrong approach.

Maybe populations of endangered Sarrs on protected land should be kept secret, because the primary threat to them is poaching.  But is poaching the major threat on private land?  Although I have no way of knowing, I doubt it.

I think the only hope for Sarrs on private land is to have their locations be known so concerned people can keep an eye on them.  How many times have we heard about Sarrs threatened by something?  The fact someone knew means something can (might?) be done in response to the threat.

If landowners are the only ones in a community who know where the Sarrs are, the plants have no protection at all.  If others know where the plants are, they can publicize the threat.  Whether it's a proposed development or a farm spraying within a pesticide buffer zone, we have to hope someone in the community notices and raises the alarm.

Some plants will be lost to poachers if locations are common knowledge, but it's better than having entire populations sprayed or drained or bulldozed or whatever.
 
I made the decision to move the topic to the mod forum until Barry makes the decision on whether to make it public or not.

I was undecided on whether that post should have been put on here in the first place. But since it was Bugweed that put it up I let it stay because I trust his judgment. The topic stayed up for awhile and there was no real ideas came from it. I decided that since it wasn't generating any ideas that it could be doing more harm than good. So I decided to move it until somebody more suited to make the decision (Barry) can decide. I'm working on an official letter from the NASC to the EPA, and suggested that Barry do the same on behalf of the ICPS. That is all I know to do.
If you have any ideas we are all ears.
 
Good idea. I think that this is a serious issue, and needs to be addressed. I personally agree with the all know/everybody watch. Better still, those who have seed from these areas, give it to the NASC with locale info, and we will code it through the ICPS, and send them out. Nobody has to worry if every body has them.
 
I posted that this topic should be removed. I am glad it has been.

I had been reading the News section of the ICPS website about the conference in Lyon and read this, "John Brittnacher gave a talk on conservation of endangered Sarracenia species in the south eastern USA. The talk was characterized as depressing because the biggest issue for these species at the moment is theft of plants."

I agree with Bugweed that conservation minded, concerned individuals need to know where these areas are so they can be protected. However this is an open forum that can be accessed by anyone. Why make it easy? With a little work, I am sure a person with bad intentions can find out where these plants reside but let's not advertize.

When lived in downtown Detroit (Hamtramck) I didn't leave my doors unlocked when I wasn't at home. While this would not stop a thief it will stop crimes of oppertunity. Unlocked doors equal easy access.

I have been meaning to post on the CP Listserver asking if the Lyon speaches are published. It would nice nice to post John's speach here for everyone to read.

Ozzy, maybe you could ask Barry when you coorespond on this subject.

Everyone growing these endangered plants, please spread your seed out into the general CP comunity. Like Bugweed said the more people who grow these plants, the less pressure there will be to collect them from the wild.

Just my thoughts.

Glenn
 
I think there is actually a middleground here. Some plant populations are more threatened by poaching, and some moreso by developement. It all depends on where they are.

Poaching would be a threat on protected land, I would think, like national parks. Those locals should not be published.

However, developement is more of a threat in populations on non-protected land near fast-growing communities. These, maybe, could be made public.

My two cents.
smile.gif
 
I agree that there has to be a middle ground. I was never comfortable with this topic being discussed here. If was getting productive ideas I would have more likely to let it stay. Instead it was just sitting here like a huge billboard. I felt that it was doing a lot of harm and getting nothing positive in return. I decided to let somebody more experienced make the decision.
Glenn, I have already sent Barry a pm concerning this.
 
Hey Guys,

Uh, I think I missed something here. Sorry! Sometimes I spend a lot of time of terraforums, other times long time passes between visits. If anyone has a comment for me to address, please don't hesitate to email me directly. Just PMing me may take a long time for me to respond since my visits are sporadic.

Later!

Barry
 
Well select people should know locations (Barry Rice, other promenant cp "leaders" (of conservation). I would love to be one but as of yet do not have enough conservation credited to me or an actual reputation. I do not think the cp community needs to know in general.
 
Tre, Some of us old fellas already know where they are simply because of the time we have had studying these plants. Barry knows I know where some things are, but I won't tell either. It is best not to push it too far. My gripe was with the maps being published for all to see, and that is dangerous. I wish folks were more patient and willing to wait for "the plant of their dreams." I mean, if raising CP teaches you anything, it teaches you patience. NASC will get started, even if unofficially at the start, and some of these plants are going to be available to one and all. Maybe then a published map that shouldn't be there now, can be there then, without fear.
 
  • #10
In the past few years, I have discovered the location of four different local Sarracenia purpurea sites.
I found them by asking people I have met on this forum and other people "in the know"..
they knew me well enough to know that I was a genuine CP enthusiast, and was only interested in seeing the sites to photograph and enjoy them, and not to poach or damage them..

so my point is, if you want to find out local sites for the sake of conservation, you can find out where they are!
just by finding the right people, and convincing those people you can be trusted..
if I got an email from someone I had never heard of saying "dude! can you tell me where those cool bug catcher plants are?" I would ignore it, and tell that person nothing..
but if was someone from this forum, who is a regular poster and obviously a hobbiest, then I would be more willing to share.

I dont think any CP sites should be posted on a public forum like this, ever!
it makes it far too easy for poachers to find prime locations..
share information only with those you know and trust!
dont give it up for the world to see..
if your heart is in the right place, you will find out where they are..

Scot
 
  • #11
I would have to agree with Scotty and others, if someone wants to find out, let them work at it, most likely they will have to go through people who have conservation of the site as a primary interest (thust the site still being there). And I don't think whether the land is private or not should be an issue:

Case in point, my parents ranch has several healthy black walnut trees on it, these are a rarity in south texas, if the location of the trees became known, I have no doubt someone would come in and pluck the smaller trees out of the ground. This has happened several times to our neighbors, I think the only reason it hasn't happened yet is my father and bro-in-law are constantly shooting on the property.
smile.gif
 
  • #12
I am still of the mind that until the NASC can make these ESA listed plants as common as cars on the highway, maps of any kind on their location should not be allowed to be posted!!
 
  • #13
I agree wiht you bugweed. I just meant if you get out of the hobby let an "old-timer" know. Someone reliable. I seriously doubt anyone knows where some plants are that I know about. Inless you hav4e lived where I have lived of commonly troop through well I will not say here
 
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