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Oh, man

  • Thread starter schloaty
  • Start date
  • #22
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Glenn @ Mar. 18 2005,9:01)]Looks like the federal budget is in trouble.  If the House and Senate can not reconcile thier versions it won't get passed.  The ANWAR drilling is contained in the budget bill so that the Democrats can't filibuster to block passage but if the budget fails so does the approval to drill.  If the Republicans try and pass the drilling sperately it will not pass.

Lauderdale,

I believe most "lectricity" comes form natural gas, coal and nuclear, not oil.  Also I may never see the artic wildlife refuge or a caribou but that doesn't reduce thier value, if that were the case, I wouldn't care about you, but I do.  What we desire may not always be what is best for us, others or the world.  Do we lift all restrictions and go out in a blaze of fun & excess or do we look several generations ahead and think about what our actions today will do to future generations?  It is hard to live life that way, I own a SUV which I probably don't need but I try and conserve in other areas.  It is tough to be a good steward of the Planet.  Hard choices are hard to make and hard to live with.

Everyone has the right to determine thier own personal destiny without regard for anyone else, its the American way (individual rights) provided you don't violate the others individual rights.  It is hard to make choices that are for the collective good when we live in a society based on the individual.

The fact that we are debating this is a step in the right direction.

Glenn
Did you know that the oil wells have TONS of natural gas as well? And the only existing oil well things have to spend MILLIONS of dollars pumping the natural gas BACK IN THE GROUND? This is just a waste, and pressure builds up and shortens the life of the well. All because some animal rights activists don't want any natural gas getting into the atmosphere. A SERIOUS misallocation of valuable resources if you ask me.

They are thinking of making the oil drilling land available to the public (as opposed to government operated). You know what will happen then? The Arabs will pack up and move over here, bringing all thier trouble with them!

However, it is hard to tell if the drilling would lower the prices. Just recently several acres of fort ord were flattened to create "Affordable housing". They built mansions starting at $400,000. All the landowners bought them up and are now renting them for $3,000 a month. The rest that were bought are now being sold for $900,000.

Now, if the government plans it out right, it could greatly help. If they do another of their bushwhacker deals.. Well, it'l only make matters worse
smile_k_ani_32.gif
 
  • #23
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They built mansions starting at $400,000

Bad point about being near NYC: That would be afforable housing around here! A decent Condo can cost that much here.

Mansions? Well, technically, I beleive "mansions" start at 10,000 sqft, and go for MILLIONS. Simply large houses (around 3.5 to 4K sqft) go between 800k and 1.2 Mil.
 
  • #24
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Mar. 18 2005,1:34)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They built mansions starting at $400,000

Bad point about being near NYC:  That would be afforable housing around here!  A decent Condo can cost that much here.

Mansions?  Well, technically, I beleive "mansions" start at 10,000 sqft, and go for MILLIONS.  Simply large houses (around 3.5 to 4K sqft) go between 800k and 1.2 Mil.
It's the same here. 400,000 really isn't that bad compared to other houses of the same size.. but you get my point
 
  • #25
"because some animal rights activists don't want any natural gas getting into the atmosphere. "

Wow, when did animal rights activists start fighting for the rights of gas
confused.gif
I guess its only natural.
smile_n_32.gif


"The Arabs will pack up and move over here, bringing all thier trouble with them!" ... and thier food too.

Lots of Arabs here in Detriot. Let them come, I love middle eastern food.

Glenn
 
  • #26
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Glenn @ Mar. 18 2005,2:41)]"because some animal rights activists don't want any natural gas getting into the atmosphere. "

Wow, when did animal rights activists start fighting for the rights of gas
confused.gif
  I guess its only natural.
smile_n_32.gif


"The Arabs will pack up and move over here, bringing all thier trouble with them!" ... and thier food too.

Lots of Arabs here in Detriot. Let them come, I love middle eastern food.

Glenn
AND their jacked up gas prices.
 
  • #27
actualy the real reason is that its very expensive to transport the gas over long distances in any substantial quantity, needing to be put in a liquid state before transport. See because of its state, (GAS) its inhrently more difficult and expensive to transport. Add to this the fact that by nature its mutch less dense than a liquid, means that a higher volume is required to turn a profit. This can be remidied by liquifying it with high pressure and cold temperatures, but doing that and keeping it in that state taks alot of energy, and alot of money, to do. in some cases, the cost of transporting it is mor than its worth (how much the gass will sell for), gining no monetary incentive to the company if it a long distance from any sunstantial recipent, like in siberia or africa. Therefore, the gas is burned off or pumped back into the ground
 
  • #28
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Its about 2 percent
Sunpitcher, I believe you should check your calculator.  2,000 acres is not 2% OF 19,000,000 acres.  It is .00011%.  I find it hard to believe that small of a percentage would have any effect whatsoever.

Glenn, You are correct about the power sources used to produce electricity. But, is drilling for natural gas, strip-mining for coal, or mining radioactive material for nuclear plants any less damaging to the environment?  Other than solar power, we currently have no other clean technology that we can use to produce the power we need to continue living as we do.

I notice everyone is against harming the environment but no one offers any solution.  I do.

-No one should be allowed to drive a truck or SUV unless he can show ABSOLUTE proof of need.
-The only new cars available should be hybrids and no power robbing accessories such as air conditioning, DVD players or GPS navigation systems should be offered.  

If those two things were implemented, our oil usage would drop by more than 25%, there would be a world wide glut of oil on the market, the price would be cut in half and we would not have to drill in ANWAR.  I am willing to accept those changes...is everyone else.
 
  • #29
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Is nothing sacred?
Yes of course there is, the almighty dollar

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-No one should be allowed to drive a truck or SUV unless he can show ABSOLUTE proof of need.

I agree.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
-The only new cars available should be hybrids and no power robbing accessories such as air conditioning, DVD players or GPS navigation systems should be offered.

I also agree that almost all cars should be hybrids.
I understand how the ac consumes more gas, but how does dvd players, gps, and other electronic systems comsume fuel?
 
  • #30
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Sunpitcher, I believe you should check your calculator. 2,000 acres is not 2% OF 19,000,000 acres. It is .00011%. I find it hard to believe that small of a percentage would have any effect whatsoever.
This is the initial proposition. expension sould be expected, because it always happens with oil sorces.
 
  • #31
There are hundreds of land oil spills in Alaska every year.  They are VERY hard to clean up.  That doesn't even count the other toxic emissions that the oil companies dump into the water and onto the land.  They aren't even required to report them, thanks to our current office-holders.  But the native peoples in the area DO report them. Oil companies and big corporations are historically VERY bad corporate citizens. Bhopal?  Exxon Valdez, anyone?

National Wildlife Refuges, National Forests, State Parks, etc. should be held inviolate. They are a sacred trust with the people of this country...not things to be ruined for corporate interests.

And, according to the US Geological survey...the most oil ANWR could produce is 16 billion bbls.  That's it.  That ain't poop.  It's not going to even put a tiny chink in the wall of oil-dependancy.  

One Alaskan pipeline had a major land based leak because some idiot shot a hole in it.

If only our government would raise the CAFE standards of SUV's, requiring them to get just 3 or 5 more mpg...  This would do the same thing as the things you suggested..but of course, we can't be doing nothing that gets in the way of corporate profit, can we?

The good news is that the sales of SUV's has peaked and is starting to go down.  So when the price of gasoline gets up to about $4.50/gallon, I guess it won't matter. the SUV's will be gone. Where is it written that in America...we MUST have cheap gasoline?

Lauderdale, I don't need gps, I have maps, and Mapquest and Yahoomaps, and since one can buy gps devices in hand-held form, I don't see how their presence in a car would cause it to use more gasoline. They run off of batteries.  I've used GPs devices to monitor and pinpoint the location of endangered plant species, for cripe's sake.  They weren't hooked up to a gasoline engine.  That would be kind of inconvenient.

I don't need a cd player either, and don't have one, and as far as I know, that runs off the battery, too. Nor do I have a DVD player in my vehicle.  I have cassette and radio.  They're run off the battery.  They apply almost no load to the engine, from what I've been told.  

Air conditioning I DO need, (which IS run off the engine itself, and does have an effect on MPG) as I have a medical condition(MS) that requires that I avoid hot weather in general, and over-heating. For instance, I don't go outside at all on hot summer days.  I do use the A/C sparingly, and only on the hottest days when stuck in traffic.  If I'm moving...it's windows down. April

http://yeoldeconsciousnessshoppe.com/art132.html
 
  • #32
[b said:
Quote[/b] (aprilh @ Mar. 20 2005,4:42)]There are hundreds of land oil spills in Alaska every year.  They are VERY hard to clean up.  That doesn't even count the other toxic emissions that the oil companies dump into the water and onto the land.  They aren't even required to report them, thanks to our current office-holders.  But the native peoples in the area DO report them. Oil companies and big corporations are historically VERY bad corporate citizens. Bhopal?  Exxon Valdez, anyone?

National Wildlife Refuges, National Forests, State Parks, etc. should be held inviolate. They are a sacred trust with the people of this country...not things to be ruined for corporate interests.

And, according to the US Geological survey...the most oil ANWR could produce is 16 billion bbls.  That's it.  That ain't poop.  It's not going to even put a tiny chink in the wall of oil-dependancy.  

One Alaskan pipeline had a major land based leak because some idiot shot a hole in it.

If only our government would raise the CAFE standards of SUV's, requiring them to get just 3 or 5 more mpg...  This would do the same thing as the things you suggested..but of course, we can't be doing nothing that gets in the way of corporate profit, can we?

The good news is that the sales of SUV's has peaked and is starting to go down.  So when the price of gasoline gets up to about $4.50/gallon, I guess it won't matter. the SUV's will be gone. Where is it written that in America...we MUST have cheap gasoline?

Lauderdale, I don't need gps, I have maps, and Mapquest and Yahoomaps, and since one can buy gps devices in hand-held form, I don't see how their presence in a car would cause it to use more gasoline. They run off of batteries.  I've used GPs devices to monitor and pinpoint the location of endangered plant species, for cripe's sake.  They weren't hooked up to a gasoline engine.  That would be kind of inconvenient.

I don't need a cd player either, and don't have one, and as far as I know, that runs off the battery, too. Nor do I have a DVD player in my vehicle.  I have cassette and radio.  They're run off the battery.  They apply almost no load to the engine, from what I've been told.  

Air conditioning I DO need, (which IS run off the engine itself, and does have an effect on MPG) as I have a medical condition(MS) that requires that I avoid hot weather in general, and over-heating. For instance, I don't go outside at all on hot summer days.  I do use the A/C sparingly, and only on the hottest days when stuck in traffic.  If I'm moving...it's windows down. April

http://yeoldeconsciousnessshoppe.com/art132.html
Prove it
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(Asking in a nice way, not a mocking way..)
 
  • #33
Prove what? There were many points made in the previous post- your question is vague.
 
  • #34
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Seandew @ Mar. 20 2005,11:39)]Prove what? There were many points made in the previous post- your question is vague.
Oh, sorry.. That there are hundreds of oil spills in Alaska per year... Hard to believe
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  • #35
Ozzy, the electricity on a car is produced by the alternator and that is powered by the engine.  All electrically powered items in a car, such as power windows, power seats and the radio ultimately use gas as their source of power. Admittedly the amount used is small but every little bit counts.  As a matter of fact, power steering and power brakes are directly powered by the engine and cause the car to consume more gas.

aprilh, I was speaking of the built in (not the hand held)  electronic map options which use GPS to pinpoint the location of the vehicle.
 
  • #36
But The alternator turns whenever the motor is running. It continuely produces electricity, no matter what. All it really does is recharges the batteries. Then all the ele. systems are run from the battery, not the alternator. So since the alternator turns whenever the motors running, I can't see where it cost more to have electrical devices.
 
  • #37
no responce.. thought so
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  • #38
It is my understanding that when current is drawn from the battery that the alternator recharges it.  When electrical devices are used, such as headlights, the alternator starts charging, which places an extra load on the engine.
Kinda like your AC unit pulley which is always turning but when cooling is demanded by the thermostat setting it turns on the compressor which in turn "loads" the engine.  I have heard that the AC compressor uses 5 to 10 horsepower.
I could be wrong but that is the explanation I have always heard.
 
  • #39
Couple points:
Lauderdale, I couldn't justify my ownership of my 1999 RAm 4x4 with a 5.9 litre v8 if I wanted to, at least not to the government. But it sure did come in handy when I needed to haul a little lumber, move 20 bales of hay, or any other number of things I couldn't do in a car.  Also, I have no idea where you live, but I will never ever ever ever own a car without AC in Texas. I am sure there are people from a few other states that would agree with me.  Sure, it would probably be ok for highway driving, but lets face it, if it's 100 outside (and it often is, and very humid too) and you spend 5 minutes at a stoplight, it's going to be 100 inside, and you are going to show up to your appointment smelly and sweaty. Sorry, I may be wrong about this, but your statement seems like that from a true northerner!  (BTW, never buy a dodge, they are utter crap.  lesson learned)  

Oh, and aside from all the towing, I would never fit in a car comfortably, I am 6'5 and over 300 lbs, every car I test drove had the dash board digging into my shins (I didn't drive the big caddies though.)

That being said, I would love it if they would make trucks and suv's more efficient, I hate how much I spend on gas...

Which leads us to the reason opening up Anwar is a good idea.

Development and operation of oil fields at prudhoe bay for decades has proven that drilling and production can be accomplished with no long term environmental impact. Pruhoe bay supports bear, fox, and bird populations equal to or GREATER than those of areas immediately surrounding it. Some birds even nest in shelters built around the pipelines.  Since Prudhoe bay went online, the caribou herd in the are has grown from 3000 animals to over 32,000.  

A facility build in Anwar that produces as much oil as Prudhoe bay in it's prime, physical footprint would be 64% smaller and the drilling impact area 74% smaller. There would be 58% less roads than service Prudhoe.

Prudhoe Bay however, peaked in 1988, it's production is in decline. It accounts for a significatn amount of north slope production, and must be replaced.


Back during the clinton presidency, the strategic oil reserve which services our navy was SOLD (to a company Al Gore had stock in, and people give chaney a hard time!).  Production in Anwar from a STRATEGIC point of view, makes perfect sense.

Finally, most importantly, China is an up and coming nation, it's oil consumption, not OPEC, is what is driving your gasoline prices up.  China is not a 'condition' that will go away, it is only going to grow worse, and it will in short order be the straw that broke the camels back as far as world oil consumption goes.  They are graduating far more scientists and engineers than we are right now, one can only hope that somewhere in that galggle of geniuses is the person witht he magic fuel source.

Anwar is estimated to contain in excess of 24.5 billion barrels according to the U.S. Geological Survey, equal to about 30 years of saudi imports. I consider that a significant dent.

As far as the government not supporting the development of Hyrbrid vehicles, that is simply untrue, Both Clinton and Bush ahve urged the auto industry to produce more efficent hybrid vehicles, the us government currently offers a 1500 dollar tax deduction for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle as well.  There is only so much the government can do without overstepping it's charter however.

I don't think anyone in the world except perhaps those that have all the oil under them, would debate we need a new fuel source, a new way of producing clean, efficient energy.  And many many people are researching to try and find that, fuel cell research is very promising right now, and other areas of investigation such as carbon nano tubes which will help us produce far stronger and lighter vehicles, will assist in getting us there. It will happen eventually, but in the mean time, the government has to take stop gap measures to make sure oil will be there when we need it.

Will I buy another pickup truck?  Yes, but I pray to GOD there is a hybrid by the time I have to.  Why? Money makes the world spin in more than one direction, I hate paying 2.00 for gas at the pump, when I bought my ram I could get it between .80 cents and a dollar, my fuel expenses have nearly doubled.  

And what was said about clean operation bonuses before is true, whoever wins the Anwar contract will have a massive financial incentive not to give the government a black eye.

Oh, and the next big oil drilling project you may not even know about is in places like Montanna, where oil exists in shale deposits. This oil has not been exploited in the past because there was no profit in it. Oil has to be over 30$ a barrel to make drilling and operation profitable in a shale deposit. Guess what, oil is at 50$ a barrel and won't be dropping by much any time soon.  The US oil reserves in shale are estimated to outstrip the current oil reserves (in production) of the entire planet.

lest you all come down on me for being a red necked republican, let me clarify that I want the government and private industry to take a more responsible view and courses of action concerning our environment. I am also a realist and don't see the world in black and white, there are many colors and shades of grey involved here.  I would love it if we didn't need to drill in anwar, but I think we do, and I think enough attention has been given to this, that when it happens, it will all 'be good'.  

On another note, this breaks my heart wanton irresponsible act of destruction.


batteries.jpg


that was a reef, and yes, those are battaries.
 
  • #40
The montana sites als also directly in the pathway of the largest and last signifigent large mammal migration rout in the lower 48's, and thats a big deal.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The US oil reserves in shale are estimated to outstrip the current oil reserves (in production) of the entire planet.

Really? where di u hear that? iv been keeping a ear out for these sorts of things but i hant heard companty and local goverment estimates anywhere near that....
 
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