Betta Breeding '10

[dustin]

Well i thought i would move this into its own subject because i have definitely chosen to try to breed bettas again. so i have the basic's down and have gotten babies before just haven't gotten them to reach maturity do to a food shortage. So im going to give it another go, 3rd time around hope everything goes well. Currently im in the process of ordering all my supplies, and live food cultures.

here is what i plan to breed them with please let me know of any alternatives i could use.
1. 30 gallon tank, about half full, no gravel
2. 2 clover sponge filters, now i do have to order these online, and i did use these for my last batch, they are supposed to fill with the micro organisms that can also double as an alternative food source, is there any alternative with filters or is sponge the only way? no filter?
3. aquarium heater
4. live plants, possible additional food source
5. live food cultures
6. brine shrimp net, for rinsing live food.

and probably some other things, maybe i just can't think of them at the moment

some questions i never answered, got too...

Do female bettas come in special varieties, or are they always just labeled as female?

How do you class a fish? i've seen all the varieties, but when it comes to crossing and breeding how do you class your betta offspring? just on looks or does it greatly matter on what you cross? ex: crown tail male x regular female= regular females, slight loss of crown tail in males, and some common males? its been awhile and i haven't seen actual colors from my cross, so i don't really know this one.

i do have 2 betta books that ill probably re-read through before i start too, they both are very good books ill post the title & authors soon too.

and maybe we will start the conversation here , love to see pics of your fish too, and maybe offspring results, and classification pics (crowntail, halfmoon, etc)

dustin

 

[amphirion]

fwiw: please start your breeding tank with a smaller 5 or 10 gallon tank. here's why---when the babies become free swimming, the concentration of food will be much higher in a 5 or 10 tank as opposed to a 30 gallon tank. plus the fry mortality will be much higher initially in a 30 gallon tank, because they will expend most of their energy swimming TRYING to find food as opposed to actually eating it. once when the babies get larger (1 inch) it would be safer to move them into the 30 gallon to grow them out since they'll be strong enough to look for and hunt larger food items.

female bettas come in all sorts of special varieties as well: crowntail, rosetail, halfmoon, etc---better to get these from a breeder than from the pet store, since their pedigree would be assured as opposed to mutts.

as for betta genetics, every type of tail is a recessive trait except for the veil tail. DO NOT use these bettas for your genetic pool as they will transform your next generation into veil tails, and it will be highly unlikely if you'd ever get something exhibiting the recessive trait out of that 2nd generation (crowntails will show partial dominance)--and it will take perhaps up to 5 generations till you'd see that recessive trait ever again (especially if it's a halfmoon).

 

[limeslide]

better to get these from a breeder than from the pet store, since their pedigree would be assured as opposed to mutts.

I also hear breeding brother x sister has more fertile results.

 

[dustin]

fwiw: please start your breeding tank with a smaller 5 or 10 gallon tank. here's why---when the babies become free swimming, the concentration of food will be much higher in a 5 or 10 tank as opposed to a 30 gallon tank. plus the fry mortality will be much higher initially in a 30 gallon tank, because they will expend most of their energy swimming TRYING to find food as opposed to actually eating it. once when the babies get larger (1 inch) it would be safer to move them into the 30 gallon to grow them out since they'll be strong enough to look for and hunt larger food items.

female bettas come in all sorts of special varieties as well: crowntail, rosetail, halfmoon, etc---better to get these from a breeder than from the pet store, since their pedigree would be assured as opposed to mutts.

as for betta genetics, every type of tail is a recessive trait except for the veil tail. DO NOT use these bettas for your genetic pool as they will transform your next generation into veil tails, and it will be highly unlikely if you'd ever get something exhibiting the recessive trait out of that 2nd generation (crowntails will show partial dominance)--and it will take perhaps up to 5 generations till you'd see that recessive trait ever again (especially if it's a halfmoon).

about the tank size, i actually didn't have much of a problem starting out in the 20 gallon long tank i used, just now it is a propagation tank i figured i wouldn't have many problems with the 30 gallon. i heard having more water helps keep less waste from building up in the water, to help keep the fry alive. at the same time i will have 2 sponge filters, and the tank will only be half full, 6-8in of water. along with the live plants. i grew my fry to a few millimeters , and they seemed to be happy, and swimming around in the 20 long at half full. I also started out feeding with microworms rather than infusoria, so the tank was i guess more designed for survivial of the fittest, but i had a good 50 or so in there that seemed to be in very healthy condition....until i ran out of food, ill have to stock up a little more next time.

thanks for the info regarding genetics too, my last attempt and this attempt will probably be more of a mutt thing to ensure i can pull off a successfull breeding, then maybe ill start looking more into genetics. for now its pick ones that i like and see what happens. though i did hear that the fish can have offspring that don't resemble the parents at all too. its probably been 1-2 years since i've read up about them so i might be off a little

limeslide: brother x sister: i haven't heard of more fertile results, but i think that could be a way to preserve a particular trait that you like, but how many times of inbreeding until you've genetically weakened the fish? Or does it happen? haha might have to count me as a newbie to this again. I was pretty sure too much inbreeding of any species results in a less hardy organism do to the mixing of genes

 

[limeslide]

Breeding brother to sister is not only OK, but it is also desirable and most often absolutely necessary to get any kind of decent results. You can cross brother to sisters up to 6 generations without ill effect. Doesn't genetically hurt the fish, either.

Many also have the misconception that one should not breed a brother or sister together because you would get inbred fry. Remember, they are fish, not people!

 

[jimscott]

I used to have a 10 gallon tank, filled to just above the heater's heating element, with a box filter going just enough to circulate the water. I had water sprite floating and styrofoam coffee cups, cut out to be convex over the water surface. I would toss in some straw for infusoria and have a brine shrimp hatching kit when they needed bigger food. This was for a variety of anabantids.

 

[dustin]

thanks for the info.

i didn't have luck making infusoria, i used it with my first batch, maybe i was led wrong? i was told to soak lettuce in water for a couple days, or until the water changed color. do you put the straw right in the tank?

here are the books id highly recommend for anyone who's interested, i need to reread them again haha.

1.Bettas:A complete pet owner's manual, by Robert J. Goldsteins [Barron's] 95pgs

and i also have

2.Aquarium care of Bettas by David E. Boruchowitz [Animal Planet] 11pgs

both are easy reads, with lots of pics, the Animal planet one has tons of pics.

 

[Ant]

Have you bought any Indian almond leaves? The tea from the leaves is suppose to have anti fungal and bacterial properties beneficial when breeding.

 

[dustin]

I've heard of them, i always wanted to find the actual tree and try to grow it but i could never find it anywhere.

 

[polywer2345]

The tree needs a warm humid climate and in the winter, it will lose most of its leaves. They also grow very large, 50m and are invasive as it is drought tolerant, salt tolerant, and has many seeds. My friend goes to Singapore all the time and she says the trees are gigantic as they are grown for shade. You could also try oak and beech leaves if you have it. Peat filtration works well to color up the water and provide a place for infusoria if you leave it on the bottom.

 

[dustin]

Well yesterday i was going to pick up my sponge filters and air pumps etc, when we found that the pet shop had closed. is there any other way to provide little filtration for the fish? i had luck using sponge filters but now the only place i can find them is online. they don't have them at petco, and i still have to check countrymax.

are sponge filters the best way to go? knowing they provide safe filtration for fry along with an alternative food supply.

or can i go regular no filtered tank, maybe algae growth, live plants?, i did noticed i had a little algae starting to grow in my tank.

im also still looking around for a breeding pair

 

[dustin]

Well i decided i would get my pair from petco, and maybe the offspring from these too will help in getting me some offline, whether trade or i sell them.

From my other betta forum they have classified my fish as followed...

Female Royal blue crown tail

Red Male Cambodian based pastel crowntail

They only had females in veil tail and crowntail so i decided to go with the crowntail since they were a little more. If i am successful i might do multiple types, id also like to try plakats and halfmoons for sure. I almost picked up a halfmoon instead of the male crowntail but i decided to try to keep the tail type the same, and at the time i wasn't sure what would happen if i crossed a crowntail with a halfmoon. So next week if things go as planned i might be getting ready for the spawn, now i'm just conditioning them.

 

[jimscott]

That's a pretty full female, there! And the male... well... need I say more!

 

[amphirion]

That's a pretty full female, there! And the male... well... need I say more!

hahaha. i say she could even be bigger. feed her well on a diet of live foods if you can, and prime her for at least 2-3 weeks before breedings her. same thing with the male. he seems a bit on the small side (as do most petco bettas) but im sure he'll do fine. do expect high mortality rates during the first couple of times since chances are high that the father will be inexperienced. you might want to try to get another female betta if you can--since females take much longer to rebound than males.

nice fish though--for sure you will get 100% crowntail offspring. dont know what the colors will be though!

 

[dustin]

haha thanks for the comments, she is pretty big, hopefully they do well and we can get a large survival rate, i have a feeding plan down on the other forum for the fry. I'm going to be conditioning them with frozen bloodworms because that seemed to work last time, i might get mosquito larva for them too.

100% crowntails~ I'm not sure exactly if they will be a 100 because i dont know their background history, but since they are both crowntails i think i have a pretty high chance of most being crowntails.

the male was named: Red cambodian based pastel Crown tail, and the female was just a royal blue, so this is where i'll start keeping track with the origin of both from petco

 

[amphirion]

crown tail is a dominant/partial dominant trait. even while one parent is a crowntail and the other is not, all fry exhibit a significant degree of ray extensions in comparison to the parent that had no extensions.

 

[dustin]

OK, thanks im still new to the colors and tail type genetics. i'll have to read up a bit more on them.

Also i dont think i ever got an answer on the other forum, but can you spawn the bettas in a tote that is about 10 gallons? Instead of right in a tank? i just think maybe instead i will try out starting them in something small and then putting them into a growout tank. I head i don't need filtration until about 4 weeks old, which is about the time when i move them to a growout tank.

thanks

 

[jimscott]

I'm sure the babies will be beautiful!

 

[amphirion]

OK, thanks im still new to the colors and tail type genetics. i'll have to read up a bit more on them.

Also i dont think i ever got an answer on the other forum, but can you spawn the bettas in a tote that is about 10 gallons? Instead of right in a tank? i just think maybe instead i will try out starting them in something small and then putting them into a growout tank. I head i don't need filtration until about 4 weeks old, which is about the time when i move them to a growout tank.

thanks

colors will be completely unpredictable since the parents are of unknown stock.

ive spawned in less: 2.5 gallon--like i said before, it keeps the food concentration density high during the critical period before the fry require a growout tank. place lots of live plants like riccia, java fern, hornwort, cabomba, moss etc to help deal with the ammonia and waste output.

 

[dustin]

thanks, so far so good 4 days in conditioning, they are 10x more active than they were than at the store, and the male has started to blow bubbles