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Kribs

Well, i think a thread about Kribs is essential in any FW aquarium forum, and i just happen to have a couple kribs i want to discuss.
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 (And such good timing on the addition of the aquarium forums! )

So, i brought home my kribs a bit over a month ago, and true to the storekeeper's words, the second they hit the water, they went from dreary grey to beautiful pink-bellied and highlighted.

They also started doing the "krib dance".  Anyone who hasn't seen kribs doing their dance, well, you're missing out.   I also call it the "shimmy" because they wiggle and, well... shimmy.

Anyway, so my pair of kribs started courting right away, and they also like to hang out in the fake "treasure" vase in the bottom of the tank.  Mostly the female, but the male amazes me by squeezing in their on occasion, too.   I expected to have baby kribs really soon after that, but to this day they haven't spawned (or whatever it's called).  They still do their dance, and the male has doubled in size, but no fry.
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 So, what gives?  Can anyone give me suggestions on what to do?  They eat flake and krill, and i gave them some white worms last week.  The water is around 78F, and the tank is heavily planted:
20030412-AQ-55gal- two months after planting -small.jpg


(Incidentally, the slightly lighter-colored lacy-leaved plant on the left surrounded by the cabomba is a U. aurea, which has become a monster in the weeks since i took this photo.)

Suggestions?  It's getting a bit depressing; i have platies and kribs, both of which are supposed to be relatively easy to breed (the platies more so, of course), as well as zebras, and i've never had any of them breed.
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Edit: more photos for those unfamiliar with the beautiful krib

Male:
20030303-AQ-krib-male.jpg


Female:
20030303-AQ-krib-female.jpg


Inquisitive cavedwellers
20030303-AQ-krib-female-in cave.jpg
20030303-AQ-krib-female-out of cave.jpg
 
Hi D. muscipula,

I raise a little relative of kribs called Pel. taeniatus. They look alot like kribs but are a bit more easy going. I have 2 batches of fry right now, one still with the parents. Your tank conditions seem right -- and your tank looks great too
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. How often do you change water? I would change 50% once a week. I change almost 75% in mine. Is your water soft and acid? Kribs like water around 6.5 to 7 pH and around 6 to 10 DH (say 100 ppms). They will live just fine outside this range and even breed but this is what is ideal. Sometimes a temperature change will trigger them. If you let the temperature fall to say 74F and then do a water change a few days later and lift it to 80-82F it will often trigger them. The white worms are a great idea as the kribs need extra protein to condition themselves for breeding. Blackworms are good too. Also, mosquito larvae, pin head cricketts, fruit flies, and finely chopped (freeze first) earthworms. Try to feed them the good stuff twice a day for 2 weeks or more.
The platies may be having babies but the zebras are probably taking them out. Zebras are pigs and swim so fast the babies don't stand a chance. You might try adding a good crop of floating plants -- hornwort, najas, water sprite, etc... You have both sexes of platies right? Had to ask
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. When the females are ready to drop fry they will be so fat that their tummies will look almost squared off.
I have some very plain little wild platy species. They are gordoni. couchianus and evelynae. They look like plain variatus platies. All they do is drop fry. They don't get eaten as I only have the platies in each tank. That's why I think the zebras are your "terrorists".
One last question, can both Kribs fit in the cave? If not, give them a piece of drift wood to dig under to create their own cave (also stimulates them) or a new clay flower pot, upside down, with a little door gently hammered out of the rim leaving no sharp edges and put alot of gravel inside it. They can carry all the gravel out to build their own home and it makes them very happy.

Bobby
 
Thanks Bobby, that's some useful information. Get some floating plants? LOL i can't keep them weeded out - they keep covering up my poor little aldrovanda. I have water sprite and pond penny floating there, as well as something like duckweed, except larger (came in with some other plants).

I was wondering if the vase was too small, but they have both been in there at times. Just in case i did just add a custom-made clay "cave" that i had for breeding pl*cos (which unfortunately got cooked when some @!*$ kid cranked up the heater), but it's bigger than i remembered.

The water here comes out of the tap at pH ~9, but within a day of outgassing drops down to around 7. It's about 10GH, and 3 KH, so i have been adding some baking soda with each water change (got scared when i first got my testing kit and found that the water was ~6 pH due to organic acids). I'll cut back on the baking soda and see if i can get the water more acidic without swings. I'm adding CO2 right now with a yeast and sugar setup, which is another reason i want some buffering capacity. I don't change the water nearly that often - do you have plants? I'll try to change more each week (LOL lately i've been so busy i haven't even been changing every week).

There is one little "Mickey Mouse" male platy, and two larger females. All the male does all day is eat and chase the females, and all they do is eat and run away. I'm not sure they ever let him get close enough, but i certainly believe that the danios picked the fry off. They are voracious little 'raptors'!

I'll try the temperature change with my water changes. I just don't want to kill off the plants. The LFS guy told me the water has to be warmer (over 80) for them to breed, but i also didn't want to do that because of the plants. Have you found that they don't need it that warm?

Thanks again.
 
I wouldn't change the water more than 40%. It is not good to change more water in one water change, it might kill the fish, and the plants.
a PH of 10 might be too much, try to drop it to 8-9.
the kribs may need something bigger to spawn on. try a large peice of slate, you can find them at pet shops. If I remember right, the female first lays the eggs, attached to the rock, and the male does the rest
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.
let the temperature of the tank drop to about 75º F. for a week, and after a week do a 25% water change, raise the temperature of the tank to 80º F., but not higher, and feed more, and like D. muscipula said, give them those 'treats'. Doing all of this triggers the kribs to think it's the 'wet season', where there's more of a chance of their fry surviving, and should induce them to breed.
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-Spec
P.S.- Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm using info that i got over the internet, fish stores, etc... (I once planned to keep kribs, but ended up not...)
 
Hi D muscipula,

LOL, Yeah, after I sent my note I relooked at your photo and saw all the floating plants
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. The large "duckweed" might be salvinia. Hornwort or najas would form deeper top carpets and since they are long stemmed with little leaves they would allow the light throw while giving your platy babies a place to hide. They are very easy to grow, especially the najas my favorite
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.
You have good water. Is it ok even for your CP's? The kribs would love the 6 pH and 3 KH but the platies would be unhappy as they need it closer to neutral and a bit more buffered. 7 pH and 5 KH would be great for both. It's not that big of a deal so don't worry it to death. Kribs are very forgiving and very adaptable and I bet your water as it is will prove to be just fine.
The Kribs do not need to be at temps above 80F to breed. 78F would probably be ok even. The lowering a bit then raising a bit is the real trigger more than just the warmth. The plants actually like it cooler -- mid to low 70's -- so don't worry about letting it go down to 74F and then up to 80F. The plants will be fine. Just keep an eye peeled for ich as temperature change can be a little stressful for the non-breeders.
I believe in large water changes both for breeding and general health of the tank. There is a risk if the chemistry of the new water is extremely different or if the new water is real low in dissolved oxygen. When the chemistry is close and you have either poured the water into the bucket so it picks up air as it falls in or allowed the hose water to pour into the tank so it pulls in oxygen -- then everything is almost always just fine. I change 75% of the water in my tanks every week. I put the de-chlorinating drops in the tank and then let the hose fill them up. My water is moderately hard and alkaline out of the hose so it is chemically very stable. The fish love it. I am more careful with fry or any fish in soft acid water. When you do small water changes statistically with each one you are actually changing less and less as the tank is building up more and more organics and you are still just taking out the same amount of water each time. That is why the big changes, at least once a month, really help the tank, the plants and the fish. If you change your process just go slow and see how it works for you. I have kept fish, alot of fish, for 30 years, so I know how to wing it and not worry. No need to make yourself worry.
Try filling the pleco pad with gravel so the Kribs can dig it out. It makes them feel the cave is theirs. They like to build and shape
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.
Cichlids often have to fail at breeding a few times to work out the mechanics. They have to learn to be a pair; then how to breed; then how to care for the eggs and then how to deal with herding "cats". Yours might have had a couple of dry runs and you just missed them. Watch for the female staying put in one place day in and day out and the male patroling the area around her. Kribs can be egg eaters so just keep watching.
The rich diet is very important for the female to have so she has the extra energy to develop eggs and for both sexes to have the body weight to sort of fast while breeding -- they get so focused on the eggs and fry they forget to eat sometimes.
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Female platies play hard to get and they don't like to be caught too often. All it takes is one quick
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and she is fertilized. It happens lightening fast and a male gets one for every say 300 tries
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. Watch how their bellies grow. If they get that squared off look and then deflate babies were dropped.

Bobby
 
no, 75% for one single water change is way too much. doing that will upset the bio bacteria and theph, and all of the chemistry of the water, just because you have been growing them for 30 years does not mean you're right, but it doesn't mean I'm right either (been growing fish for like 7 years)
 
ahhh, i clicked report post to mod, i meant to click edit, ignore the report mods
 
Hi Spectabilis73,

I didn't mean to imply you were wrong and I was right. Please don't be offended. I was just trying to explain that there was alot of experience behind what I was saying so that it didn't sound like a wild untested idea
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. Some people change alot of water each week and others change less. Both can work just fine. I just have reasons for doing large changes. It helps the fry to grow large and healthy. It helps keep algae down. Most fish seem to enjoy it -- but not all. It's a great disease preventative. And it stimulates breeding. (Although not changing water and a bit of neglect is sometimes the answer
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).
I agree that if water chemistry is an issue or low dissolved oxygen content is feared then smaller changes are in order.
The good nitrifying bacteria is not so much free swimming in the water but growing in large colonies over all the objects in the tank (gravel, plants, rocks, etc...) and in whatever biofilter bed you have in your filter system. That is the bacteria you always want to protect by not cleaning the whole tank and setting it up like new or by not washing your biofilter medium in tap water and having the chlorine kill a good deal of it. Bacteria in the water is not a big concern. The potential harmful things in a water change are differences in total dissolved solids in the water; low dissolved oxygen content in the new and/or old water, too large of a temperature difference and not fully de-chlorinating the water.
Anyway. That's my POV on a complex issue
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Again, please dont think I thought you were wrong. I just look at it differently.

Bobby
 
Also, this case is a bit different than an "average" aquarium, because both the biofiltration and the oxygenation is or could be handled pretty well by the plant population. Especially with the CO2 injection, the plants (well, the cabomba anyway) seems to grow almost before my eyes. If only my aldrovanda would do that.
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It's growing longer, but the rosettes are much smaller than they were before, and i'm not sure why. Anyway, i tend to do around 30% water changes when i do change. It's really a pain to get out and put in much more water than that with all the plants around.

One thing that has changed lately is that the algae that is growing is red, instead of the green spot that usually stains the glass in a week or two. I know somewhere on the krib somebody describes which algae grows in response to which nutrient pressures, so perhaps i'll go check it out.

Bobby, do you think that the other fish in the tank are a factor in the kribs not getting together? It seems like often when the female is doing her little dance, the male notices a rainbow or platy or puffer hovering in his territory, and rushes off to run the miscreant out. I haven't the experience to know if that's typical or if that's preventing him from focusing on the female.

Also, do you know what role photoperiod plays, if any?

Thanks
 
  • #10
Hi D muscipula,

With the CO2 injection do you test for CO2 levels? If not, see if you can pick up a little tester by Eheim or Dupla that goes inside the tank and stays there. It uses a reagent that changes color to show CO2 levels and they work great. They really tell you how well your CO2 is doing.
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I forgot to say, I have tons of plants in all my tanks but they are all in clay pots or mounted on driftwood or floating. I keep bare bottom tanks, painted black on the outside as it makes them easier to clean. All my tanks look like CP terrariums
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or underwater greenhouses full of potted plants.
The other fish being there will help form the pair bonding. It's natural that he chases them out of his territory. It will also stimulate the kribs later to protect the eggs and fry -- they can be #### on wheels at that time
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. The female controls the breeding. When she is fat enough, dances long enough and insists "let's go", he will get the idea -- that's why conditioning her is so important
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.
Puffers
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. Now we know where those baby platies are going
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. They would also pick off the krib fry
Kribs really live in a basically 12/12 hour photo period. It's not crucial. When they breed you might want to leave a little desk lamp on nearby to simulate dim moon and star light. It helps the adults herd the "cats". They will even put them to bed when they know it's "lights out". How many watts of light are on the tank and what size is the tank?
Is this red algae bushy red algae or flat little red circles on the glass and rocks?

Bobby
 
  • #11
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (biggun110 @ May 01 2003,7:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Spectabilis73,

   I didn't mean to imply you were wrong and I was right. Please don't be offended. I was just trying to explain that there was alot of experience behind what I was saying so that it didn't sound like a wild untested idea  
smile.gif
. Some people change alot of water each week and others change less. Both can work just fine. I just have reasons for doing large changes. It helps the fry to grow large and healthy. It helps keep algae down. Most fish seem to enjoy it -- but not all. It's a great disease preventative. And it stimulates breeding. (Although not changing water and a bit of neglect is sometimes the answer  
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).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sorry, I guess I looked at it wrong...
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everyone has their own opinions and ways of doing things, I once tried to do a 75% water change, I lost half of my guppies... (this is when I first started growing fish
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) That's why I prefer not to do such large water changes, but for other people it works just fine...
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With my 16 inch pacus I loose about 15 gallons a week through evaporation, and I change another 20% a week thorugh gravel cleaning. I'm thinking of selling them, It costs me 20 dollars a month to feed them, and I think it's easyer just to care for cichlids
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That reminds me, I can't get my convict cichlids to breed, maybe you could help me?
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-Spec
 
  • #12
Hi Spectabilis73,

I'm glad you understood
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. I'd hate to offend someone here my first week
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.
I read your convict journal. My guess on your difficulty might be that they are a bit young. Convicts can breed at 1 and 1/2 inches but larger is a surer bet. I would focus on feeding them well. Have you ever looked at a site called <brineshrimpdirect.com>? They sell some great food products, especially a large package of freeze dried bloodworms at a cheap price. You can get 4 times the amount of bloodworms that come in the large (.71oz) Tetra foods can for the price of one large Tetra foods can! The worms are bigger too.
I would give the convicts as much live food as you can, maybe 3 or 4 small feedings a day. They would love finely chopped (frozen first) earthworms, mosquito larvae, pin head cricketts, plus frozen brine shrimp and bloodworms. Hikari pellets are very good. I like the micropellets. They use white fishmeal which the fish can digest better. Omega One flakes are great too -- made from fresh salmon.
I make my own fishfood from beef heart and salmon. The beef heart mix uses 2 #'s of beef heart, cleaned very very very well, a cup of frozen peas, a cup of frozen carrots, a tbsp of wheat germ, 6 oz. of cheap flake food and knox gelatin. You take the BH and after cleaning away everything but red meat, you put it in a blender with just enough water to turn the BH into a thick thick thick paste. Put it in a big mixing bowl. Then do the same with the peas and carrots. Stir all 3 in the mixing bowl. (Key word is THICK not runny!!&#33
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Add the wheat germ and stir. Add the flake food and stir it all up. Melt the 4 small packages of Knox gelatin that come in the box in a cup and a half of boiling water and pour that in the mix. Stir it all up and then spoon a cup or so into individual quart freezer bags. Flatten them out and freeze. You should get about ten or so. (Do the same thing for the salmon mix only instead of beef heart use 2#'s of fresh salmon fillets and a pound of frozen cooked and peeled cocktail or popcorn shrimp.) These are good foods, pretty cheap to make -- especially the beef heart -- and really make the fish grow. The salmon is sometimes not taken at first but they learn. Everything loves the beef heart.
For the Pacus try alot of veggies. They love zucchini slices, big romain lettuce leaves, grapes, bugs, green peas, earthworms live and whole, etc... Put the zuchini in water in the microwave for a couple of minutes until it sinks. That softens it nicely. For a cheap dry food you might check out trout chows on line or at a feed store. They are a great dry food and come in many different sized pellets and in 50# bags. These things could all cut your food costs alot.
Otherwise on the convicts, feed them well, keep them at 78 -80F, give them alot of gravel to dig in, a large flowerpot, water changes and time and I bet you will soon have 100's. They are usually perfect parents and fascinating to watch they are so attentive. They don't usually hide their eggs too much and the female will tend them. The male stands guard and then helps with the herding. They are very aggressive when with fry and the other poor fish may need rescuing
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.
Any questions?

Bobby
 
  • #13
My first question, can I use chicken heart too?
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we're gonna cook a chicken on Sunday, a extra big one, last time we did that it included the gizzard...
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I am sure the convicts are old enough to breed, when i bought them they were standing guard over a batch of eggs. When i brought them home, they didn't do anything for a while, and after a month they dug a nest, and were just about to spawn, when all of a sudden, overnight, they got ICH! I hate ich, it took me 3 weeks to exterminate all of it...
Have you read my full journal? you can find the link at the home page of my website, http://www.geocities.com/spectabilis73
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I've tried the zuchinii, grapes, and F/T Peas, they didn't eat any of them! All they'll eat is Hikary cichlid pellets large size... <span id='ME'><center>Spectabilis73 shakes head</center></span>
I do a 25% water change about 30 minutes before a rainstorm hits the area, I read somewhere that it can induce breeding...
-Spec73
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  • #14
Hi Spec,

HMMMMM. chicken heart. I've never tried it
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but seriously, I know people use it or turkey heart. That must be a big chicken
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. I think I would just cut the heart up into little bits and feed the straight heart rather than try the whole mix. If nothing else I bet the Pacus love it.
It's odd that the convicts haven't spawned again. They must just be freaked out after the move and ich treatment. (Try the product "Ich Cure" next time, it works alot faster but does turn the clear sealer a faint blue **.)
It sounds like you are doing everything right. Are they alone? Is the temperature right and steady?
I read 2 pages of your journal -- is there more now?
Yeah, hikari pellets are expensive. The trout chow would come in a similar size pellet but see if you could get a small sample to try. It's too bad they don't like grapes as it is cool to watch them spin one in their mouth trying to peel it
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. If you let them go hungry a few days you might break their habit of only liking hikari and maybe could get them on something cheaper.

Bobby
 
  • #15
I used Rid Ich+ to get rid of the ich...
Yeah, they're alone, and the temperature is a constant 80ºF. I used to feed them Hikari algea ships, it was 2 times more expensive than the cichlid pellets, and they had to go hungry for a full week before they'd change
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There's only the 2 pages of the convict journal. after they stopped courting and broke up I thought it would just be a waste of my webspice space to keep going
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...
-Spec
 
  • #16
Wow, i'm gone for a day and the convicts take over the place!  
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No, i don't check the CO2 levels.  I'm sorta cheap, and all these tester things are expensive.  All i have is a combination kit that tests GH, KH, pH, and useless things like nitrite and ammonia.  Also, my CO2 "injection" system is just a 2 litre bottle with  yeast and sugar.
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 I can't get it to last for more than about a week, for some reason, so a CO2 tester is pretty low priority on my list of hobby expenses

I finally tested the tank parameters again for the first time in a couple months (been distracted by school and CPs), and the pH is right at 7.0, which is a bit strange, but not at all a bad thing, considering my relative neglect.  The GH has dropped to 5, but so has the tap water (or my reagents are getting old), and the KH is about where i wanted it with the baking soda additions: 4dKH.  Tap water is 2
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  Too low for most fish, too high for most CPs.  
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Did a big water change yesterday and dropped the heater thermostat to 72.  Unfortunately, it won't cool below 77 right now due to ambient, apparently.  No sign of any change from the kribs yet.  I fed them krill a couple times this week to fatten them up a little.  
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That's an interesting way you have of landscaping your tank.  My aquatic plants are too rapid-growing and ephemeral to try to keep them in pots - at least some are.  If i started over again, i might keep the amazon sword and the grass in pots.  Unfortunately, i started with a normal tank setup with no plans for plants (UGF and big chunky gravel), and still use the UGF and chunky gravel, which isn't necessarily good for plants.

Yeah, puffers can be pretty psychotic killer attack fish, can't they?  I lost a couple of zebras and otos to them (and even more danio fins, which grew back, and oto eyes, which didn't
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) before i put in the kribs.  Now, they have turned into such docile kittens since the kribs took over top dog positiong that i'm afraid they'll starve to death because the kribs guard their krill.  They're also not very good at avoiding the krib territory, and not used to running, so it sometimes takes several nips from the male to get the idea. Puffers were my first priority when i set up the tank because we had one when i was young, and i'm learning the hard way that they aren't compatible with a lot of things.  6 Colomesus asellus can be quite a handful, but they're really fun to watch.  As much personality as kribs, just a bit more psychotic in nature.
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Probably doesn't help that they were wild collected and still haven't figured out the glass thing.  Anyway, i'm not sure they'd get the krib fry the way they're afraid of the parents, but i guess i'll find out.  I can always isolate the kribs if i have to.

There are two 55W CF bulbs over the tank with a nice reflector (it's an AHSupply retrofit kit).  It's a 55 gallon.

The red algae is just showing up as a hazing or fogging of the glass.  It was previously mostly green spot, but now it's got a red hue.

Cheers
NL

PS Spec, i went through Ich about three months ago, too.  What a pain.  I used the same stuff you did.  As far as in know, it's got the same active ingredients as what he suggested.
 
  • #17
Hi Spec,

So the convicts don't have anything to do with one another anymore? That's weird. Maybe letting their temperature slowly fall to 75F and then raising it up to 80F -- although watch for an ich relapse. They may just need more time to rebound fully from the ich. Hard call. I'd wait and just change water and feed and see what happens. Pairs that have bred once get back to it sooner or later.
Have you ever used mail order fish places for supplies, like That Fishy Place or Pet Warehouse? They usually sell the food alot cheaper than the store. It might help you out with cost. Pacus get so big and eat so much -- bottomless pits
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. They live here in Houston in the local bayous from being released. They stay near the warm water waste pipes in winter.

Bobby
 
  • #18
Hi D muscipula,

Poor eyeless otos. Puffers never fail to reek havoc. I agree, they are cool fish but they sure are little demons.
Your water sounds perfect for kribs. It would also be perfect for most killifish -- my favorites. Have you ever seen a blue gularis? He's a big beauty.
The CO2 test kits can be expensive -- about $15 to $20
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. The DIY CO2 is hit and miss but alot of people have good success. If you ever upgrade, I would avoid some of the new convience oriented kits and go with the old fashioned bottle and regulator. They cost more up front but are alot cheaper in the long run and alot more versatile. I don't use CO2 in mine as I don't grow stem plants. I have found that with good light, some laterite and good fertilizer that the rooted plants do great without it. It's the stem plants (bunch plants) that always look kind of leggy and weak without the CO2.
The plants in pots in bare tanks is an old 1950's kind of set up that breeders used that I always liked. I think it looks kind of cool and is so flexible. I have pots of swords, crypts, Val, chain sword, aponogetons, plus anubias and java fern on driftwoodwood and java moss and floating plants everywhere. It's a real jungle
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. The swords love the pots. I have one type of stem plant in pots. It's a kind of hygrophilia with 6 inch long really thin leaves. It grows great.
I think I know the red algae you mean. It comes on my glass if I get behind on water changes or if I have been feeding alot or leaving the light on too long. It's ugly.
That's good that the temp. went down and then up. That's the trigger. Doesn't always work but it can.

Bobby
 
  • #19
I use to raise kribs and when I was doing it I was told kribs prefered brackish water. I can't remember the exact amount of salt, but it was half the strength of salt water. I had generations of kribs until I got bored. I used 10 gal. tanks for breeding. So if you continue to have problems, you might try adding some salt( sea salt of course) good luck Jack
 
  • #20
Hi D muscipula,

You might want to check out the webpage of a friend of mine. He specializes in the west african cichlids like kribs. The site is < http://blackwater.50megs.com/ >. It is named Ariel's Blackwater Tributary. He lives in your area -- MA. Ever shop at Uncle Ned's tropical fish store? It has a webpage and is suppose to have cool stuff.

Bobby
 
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