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Bought a new cichlid, red devil

  • #21
Hi,

I agree and disagree with scottychaos on UGF. When one's budget is tight or one has a small tank, an UGF is the best way to get a good biological filter. Yes, they collect the "mulm" that forms in the tank but "storing" that mulm in the gravel as they do is not much different than storing it in an outside power filter or even in a canister filter. The tank water is still in contact with the "mulm". Now this mulm is the solid waste and other stuff being broken down into essentially dirt. It is not inherently a bad thing but becomes one in a small body of water (a fish tank). Vacuuming the gravel when one does a water change takes care of most of the mulm -- about as well as the usual outside power filter. If one does weekly water changes of 50-75% then very little mulm is left in the gravel. When one is doing regular partial water changes there is no need for carbon in the filter either. The water change does what the carbon does.
I have never been a big fan of power heads with UGFs as they suck up small grade gravel and ruin their impellers and their force does create packing in the gravel bed and thus poor flow and filtering. Air driven UGF's rarely pack and have nothing for gravel to ruin. The air lift type work better than powerheads for biological filtration as biological filtration does not need force and speed -- just steady free flow -- to work. Power heads are overkill in a small tank and in a large tank a canister filter is better.
UGF's for small tanks have lost popularity in fish stores as they don't need expensive cartidges every few weeks so pushing them costs the store profits. Fish stores make alot of money off the pre-made filter pads almost all of today's outside power filters require. These filters were once simply pumps and open plastic boxes that could hold whatever filter medium one wanted to use -- like cheap bulk floss and carbon or even peat moss. Today's outside power filters can only hold the company's ready-made cartridge insert and trap you into spending alot of money every year buying them. Stores love power filters for this reason -- $$$$$.
Sponge filters also, unlike UGF's, wear out and must be replaced. UGF's work without additions year after year. One does not need the little carbon inserts for UGF's if one is doing water changes, so there is nothing to continuely buy for an UGF except repalcement airstones once a year -- $2.
I won't use an UGF in a saltwater tank.
The best cheap non-UGF biological filter is the Jumbo Lustar Box or Corner Filter. Few stores carry these but they are available on line. These BIG inside corner filters are versatile and well made. I put an inch of floss in the bottom and then fill them up with small grade aquarium gravel or Eheim Ehfisubstrat for a biological medium. Every couple of months I change the floss and wash the medium in de-chlorinated water. One of these filters can do a 29 gallon -- 2 if it's heavily stocked. I will use 3-4 in a 55 gallon. I can have extras in other tanks cycling so I can instantly start a tank. The filter lasts for years as does the main medium. It costs about 25 cents to replace the floss. These filters date back to the 1950's and are very popular with breeders.
Eheims are the best outside canister filters. They are more expensive than others but they last forever, do a great job and cost pennies to clean and change when used as a biological filter -- again, even here, all you change is a bit of cheap bulk floss. You don't have to use the company's pre-formed pads. An Eheim -- after a year of use -- will be cheaper than the cheapest outside power filter because you are not forced to buy all those pre-formed filter cartridges. Big savings and better filter!
My favorite outside power filters are the Emperors as they have the best biological filtration feature for my money.
My 20 tanks are bare bottom too -- the outside bottom is painted black and I have clay pots full of live plants in all tanks. The filters are either the Jumbo Lustars or Eheims -- depending on tank size and fish density. Trapsrock needed some good basic equipment that would do the job and I think people he talked to on the fish sites focused on his problems and ideal solutions more than giving him real solutions that he could do ok with right now. UGFs, in the long run, are bad for a Devil because Devils dig, uncover the filter plate and thus ruin how the UGF works. Devils have to have canister or Emperor filters when they are large and dig.

Bobby
 
  • #22
Bobby,
While we're on the topic of power filters:
I have a Aqua Clear 500 (similar to the emporor), How often do I need to replace the sponge, white rocks (thats the only word I have for them lol!, It's almost like the charcol but colored white) and charcol? Thanks!
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-Spec
 
  • #23
Spec, is that an amonia sponge your using? if I remember, your not supposed to use it for very long at all or it will dump back into your system. (sorry, if I am off on what your using&#33
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  • #24
Hi Spec,

RamPuppy guessed right, those are ammonia remover rocks. IMO, in a cycled, uncrowded tank, you do not need to use those. RamPuppy is also right that once they are used up they let ammonia back out -- just as used up carbon dumps stuff back into the water. I do not use ammonia rocks or carbon in any of my tanks and haven't for 30 years. Water changes do what carbon does if you stay on top of them and a cycled healthy tank just shouldn't need ammonia remover rocks. The fish industry loves to play into people's love of gadgets, drugs, chemicals, technology etc to get your money. Keep it simple unless absolutely required -- water changes, good food, de-chlorinator, basic filtration and an environment that makes the fish happy. Save your money for more tanks and cp's.
On the Aquaclear, Spec, when you wash the big sponge out do you do it in de-chlorinated water or rinse it under the faucet? If you are rinsing it under the faucet, it would be a good idea to change to a bucket full of de-chlorinated or old tank water for cleaning it out as the chlorine in tap water kills the good nitrifying bacteria on the sponge just as it would kill the fish. All biological filter mediums of any kind need to always be washed in de-chlorinated tap water or old tank water (like from when you are doing a partial water change).
Also, as a good backup for when you have to change the sponge, you might think of using one of the smaller size Aquaclear sponges where the ammonia remover rocks are now. I am not sure which one will fit but that way when you put in a new big sponge from time to time (rarely, I hope&#33
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you will have a little back up biological sponge to help quickly colonize the new big one. Just never change the two sponges at the same time
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If anyone has an Eclipse System, the big sponges for Aquaclear 500's, when cut in half long ways make great filter cartridges for the Eclipse. They last almost a year with regular rinsing and you save $100's not buying the pre-formed Eclipse cartridges. I use the half 500 sponges in my Eclipses.

Bobby
 
  • #25
Hi Spec,

I forgot to answer one of your questions. I'd change the carbon about every 4-6 weeks. You might think of buying your own small nylon filter bag (Lee's makes a couple of sizes that are excellent) and then buying a jar of aquarium carbon. I prefer Marineland "Black Diamond" Carbon as you can use half as much as other brands -- or say half as much as what comes in your AC 500 carbon insert -- and get just as much cleaning action out of it. Black Diamond carbon is very active and very good. It's more expensive but if you use less than normal it goes further and ends up cheaper and better
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. If you make your own carbon insert with the nylon bag and jar of carbon you will save money over time. Of course, buying the ready made carbon insert is quicker and easier. Avoid carbon with discus and alot of catfish species. It seems to irritate their body slime and fin membrane for some reason. Corys and some tetras -- like bleeding heart tetras -- can end up finless in tanks heavily filtered with top grade carbon.

Bobby
 
  • #26
in response to BigGun..

"When one's budget is tight or one has a small tank, an UGF is the best way to get a good biological filter"

why? what difference does a a tight budget or a small tank make? a small power filter costs the same as a UGF..probably less actually. and how does a small tank make any difference?
power filters work just fine on 10 gallon tanks. size makes no difference.

"Vacuuming the gravel when one does a water change takes care of most of the mulm -- about as well as the usual outside power filter"

sorry..but that is simply un-true.
with a UGF, a LOT of mulm collects *under* the plate, where vaccuming cant reach it..so vaccuming simply cant remove a lot of the mulm under the plate..it just stays there..forever.
but with a power filter, simply rinsing out the filter floss in tank water (as opposed to tap water, because tank water wont kill the bacteria of the biofilter) removes ALL the mulm that has collected in the filter! all of it..none left. MUCH cleaner water and tank as a result.

"One does not need the little carbon inserts for UGF's if one is doing water changes, so there is nothing to continuely buy for an UGF except repalcement airstones once a year -- $2."

true..but inserts for power filters cost very little too..and really dont need to be replaced very often. I just keep rinsing out the floss on my whispers and re-using them...maybe put in a new one once a year..cost --$4
its still worth the *slight* cost increase over the huge drawback of a much dirtier tank with a UGF.

also, no one needs carbon.. ever..for anything.
total waste of money, it does nothing that water changes cant do better. (btw, im talking only freshwater here..not getting into salt water)

my big issue with UGFs is they create dirty tanks..and they do nothing a power filter cant do just as well..so why would anyone bother? lots of drawbacks to UGFs..and no benefits whatsoever.

Scot
 
  • #27
Hi Scottychaos,

<<<why? what difference does a a tight budget or a small tank make? a small power filter costs the same as a UGF..probably less actually. and how does a small tank make any difference?
power filters work just fine on 10 gallon tanks. size makes no difference.>>

Small power filters offer very weak and fragile biological filtration and the larger ones, like Emperors, that are also good biological filters, are too large for small tanks. An UGF provides a small tank with very good biological filtration.


<<<sorry..but that is simply un-true.
with a UGF, a LOT of mulm collects *under* the plate, where vaccuming cant reach it..so vaccuming simply cant remove a lot of the mulm under the plate..it just stays there..forever.
but with a power filter, simply rinsing out the filter floss in tank water (as opposed to tap water, because tank water wont kill the bacteria of the biofilter) removes ALL the mulm that has collected in the filter! all of it..none left. MUCH cleaner water and tank as a result.>>>


It is fairly easy to siphon mulm from under the UGF plate. One just has to take the top off the lift tube and pull out the airstone tube and then run a siphon hose down the uplift tube of the UGF and much of the mulm under the plate will be siphoned off. Also, by stirring the gravel well with your hand before vacuuming increases the amount of mulm one can siphon off. If mulm is a serious problem, one can do a 50-80% water change 3-4 days running and all that vacuuming will make the gravel extremely clean.
A Power Filter does not remove all the mulm from a tank. A good deal of it still settles on and into the gravel and must be vacuumed as one would with an UGF. Mulm is not necessarily "dirty". One does not need a pristine tank for it to be "clean". This is an issue with discus breeders due to the extremely low bacteria content of many of the discus' natural habitats.
At different times for certain tetra, killifish and Betta species, I have had tanks with complete 1 inch thick coverings of peat moss across the bottom -- pretty mulmy and "dirty" but actually very clean. It is impossible to "vacuum" peat moss to clean it or to use either an UGF or a Power Filter with it.


<<<One does not need the little carbon inserts for UGF's if one is doing water changes, so there is nothing to continuely buy for
true..but inserts for power filters cost very little too..and really dont need to be replaced very often. I just keep rinsing out the floss on my whispers and re-using them...maybe put in a new one once a year..cost --$4
its still worth the *slight* cost increase over the huge drawback of a much dirtier tank with a UGF.>>>

I agree that carbon is useless if one does regular partial water changes and I agree that one can reuse the pre-formed filter inserts and save money, but I believe UGFs form larger and richer bacteria beds for cycling ammonia than do many popular power filters.

<<<also, no one needs carbon.. ever..for anything.
total waste of money, it does nothing that water changes cant do better. (btw, im talking only freshwater here..not getting into salt water)>>>

I agree.

<<<my big issue with UGFs is they create dirty tanks..and they do nothing a power filter cant do just as well..so why would anyone bother? lots of drawbacks to UGFs..and no benefits whatsoever.>>>

I believe they do have benefits most small Power Filters do not have and their one drawback -- storing mulm in the gravel -- is easily corrected with consistant partial water changes and vacuuming. UGFs allow for wiggle room while a new hobbyist learns the ropes. Small Power Filters do not have the same rich bacteria beds when used alone and so offer less margin of error. Needless to say, I prefer Jumbo corner filters and Eheims as biological filters to most Power Filters, UGFs and Sponge Filters but they all have a place and all have both good and bad qualities. Some people just use plants and water changes to filter their tanks without any mechanical filters whatsoever.
I agree that bare bottomed tanks are best but few people want that look -- I do and have for 30 years.
Of course, a reverse flow UGF does not use the gravel to store mulm and they make a great biological filter when used with a Power Filter to pick up the mulm in the water.
The needs of discus are more extreme than for most fish -- although Nothobranchius requirements are tough too -- and I am always a little afraid that if we set unnecessarily high standards for more forgiving fish we will both take the fun out of the hobby and chase away a newbie's adventure and excitment. People shouldn't feel that every choice they made was wrong and hurtful when a bit of friendly advice and a nudge here and there can make their hobby work just fine and allow them to feel good about what they are trying to do.

Bobby
 
  • #28
Stupid question here: what would happen if you used gravel and not have an undergravel filter?
I love undergravel filters for small tanks and small fish, but when you get to the bigger fish like pacus, the undergravel filter makes a very dirty tank
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  • #29
Hi Spec,

<<<but when you get to the bigger fish like pacus, the undergravel filter makes a very dirty tank >>>

Not if you feed them only grapes as they never get to eat
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.

Bobby
 
  • #30
Hey scotty, I read what you posted, seems like you needa be hanging out with the dudes on predatory fish, shouldnt come over here doing that, to many nice people are here that actually understand people, over there, they talk more than they listen, just like you. How many times have I said I know he needs a bigger tank, I think this makes about 20 or 30. Im moving to kentucky, so hes in the 10 gallon for now. I dont like you posting on this forum...ya know what forget it, I can already see that you have the true potential to be a jerk, im not gonna talk to you anymore done. I AM tottaly aware I need a bigger tank, I am not gonna start flames on my favorite site, I love this place, I dont however like you. You sounded really dumb when you said "All UGF's do is collect bacteria" Because....thats exactly what I need for the 6 week cycling period.
 
  • #31
Scotty, you have a pretty ROTTEN attitude, and im having a hard time holding back the "Hulk" in me. I'd appreciate if you wouldnt give anymore of your 2 cents, and leave here to go hang out with the fish nerds on predatory fish, cause it seems like you know tons about fish, and nothing about VFT's...lol...lol... I can picture you sitting out on a boat with rubber boots up to your shoulders, casting out a line with a huge white beard down to your feet. Anyways, leave, go hang out with the people on predatory fish, this site is clean, and everyone is nice here, we dont need one urchin polluting the sea.
 
  • #32
Hey now, please all... lets not do this in yet another forum.

The whole issue about the tank is solved and settled. Let's let a sleeping fish sleep!

Spec, I haven't used an undergravel filter in any tank for well over 10 years. I feel that with adequate power filtration (like any of the emperor series) that an undergravel filter is just not needed. I think to many it's a matter of personal opinion, it is a fact that most planted tanks (which is what I used to run exclusively) do better without UGFs, some people do have good results with them and plants together, but generally, the type of gravel/substrate on needs with a planted tank is incompatible with a UGF.

So, what would happen if you turned one off? The gravel bed would probably experience some die off due to reduced oxygen levels, and your amonia would go up a little bit for a while, as the eco-system finds it's new balance.

If you add or already have a filter such as the emperor series that haev bio-wheels, then I beleive they will pick up the slack, there is an incredible amount of surface area to them, and it boggles my mind every time I read the numbers (though I can't recall them off the top of my head.

There are other types of biological filters that can effectively replace a UGF as well, one is a fluidized bed filter, they offer an absolutely amazing amount of bio-filtration, with one horrendous drawback, lose power for as much as five minutes and the fluidized bed is toast, the bacteria die, and your tank chemistry is going to be out of whack for months. Many people that run fluidized beds keep them on a battery backup. I ran one once, wasn't impressed (though it was a very cheap model).

Oh, and after years of learning, I would go so far as to say, in fresh water, that carbon is detrimental, not just worthless, it sucks out and absorbs food for your bio filter... however, on the flipside, when it becomes inert and worthless, if you leave it in (after it's dumped it's amonia back into the system (which sucks) the carbon makes an excellent place for beneficial bacteria to colonize!

I would say a UGF is adequage for a small community aquarium on a 10 gallon, with proper maintenance it can get the job done. I think there are better options, but it is adequate. I personally however think aside from Bettas and your occasional small species that needs a solitary tank that 10 gallons are to small. I wish that the industry would change, and realize that a small tank should be for an advanced hobbyist, not a beginner. Simply put, the smaller the eco-system the more rapidly things go wrong with it, i.e. a 10 gallon tank with a capuful of amonia added to it is in a lot worse shape than a 100 gallon with a capful, the chemistry change is wildly different. (Don't add amonia to your tank unless you are doing a fishless cycle&#33
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(And learn from scotty and don't keep adding it! LOL! ) (just taking a playful jab their bro&#33
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Someday I hope to have a retail store front, a fish store, and I can gurantee you that I will encourage every beginner to start with at least a 30, beginners are prone to over-stock, are still learning the ends and out and a 30 is simply far more forgiving, and far more versatile in what you can put on it (filters and lights). I think the 30 gallon eclipse is an excellent beginners tank. (they even have new power compact fittings so you can convert it easily to have enough light to do a reef, though I think 30 is to small for reef keeping for any but the more experienced (not neccissarily advanced) hobbyists.)

Oh, and on washing filters to get the mulm out... one of the first things I did when i started with the emperor 400's was throw out the media cartridges for putting carbon and other stuff in, and I stuck in 2 more floss pads (with carbon since they came with it.) The way the emperor 400 is arranged is that there are two flow channels out to the bio-wheels, on each side, there are 2 layers of cartridges. When the first set of cartridges got dirty (the ones that were exposed to the most junk) I would pull them out and move the second cartridge into the first slot, wash the cartridge I had removed with tap water (probably killing off a ton of bacteria) and then put it back in the second slot. Since the carbon's effectiveness wasn't a big deal to me, I could continue this process indefinately or until a pad just got to ratty to use. The benefit of this method, is that filter 1 always is the most biologically advanced filter, when two is cleaned and placed in behind it, 1 colonizes 2, to becomes 1, 1 becomes 2, and the process repeats like clockwork every couple of weeks... in that way, while I was never allowing those pads to achieve their maximum level of bio-active culture, I was maintaining a balance, and in aquariums, balance is everything. (that doesn't change the point that an emperor 400 is practically a 10 galloni n and of itself and should not be put on a 10 gallon if you could even make it fit! (that is what... 400 gallons an hour, at 10 gallons (probably closer to 9 or 8 after decorations and gravel) total capacity, your turning your water volume over a total of 40 times an hour! I think (I am horrible at math) that that comes around to 6.6 gallons a minute... that's faster than most water faucets I think, and would not be just one current that was to powerful, but three, one from the intake, and 1 one from each return...

I am babbling now.. hehh...
 
  • #34
BigGun,
ok..good points.
I agree a UGF tank *can* be kept somewhat clean..but IMO it takes a lot more work than a tank without a UGF, and the tank is *still* dirtier with *more* work!
so I still see UGFs as being totally worthless..
but thats just me.

we both made our points, im ready to stop!
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Scot
 
  • #35
Hi Scotty and Ram,

No problem, Scotty. The last thing we need is another discussion turned fight on here this week and, fundamentally, I do not disagree with any of your points and would be arguing your main point if I had discus. I love discus and have kept wild ones at different times. I've done alot of research on how the raising of discus fry away from the parents evolved and who invented the process. It was invented by a wholesale fish guy's father and a hobbyist in Chicago in the late 1950's -- Swegles and Matson and Matson passed it on to Schmidt-Focke in Germany and Carroll Friswold in the USA. Friswold taught it to Wattley. I also found out that while Gene Wolfsheimer in 1956-1957 was the first aquarist to photograph and prove that discus fry feed from the parents -- he did an article on it for National Geographic in 1960 -- Hermann Hartel in Germany in 1936 was the first to observe and report on this amazing behavior.
Ram, I am a big fan of Emperors and Eclipses. I think they are great filters.

Bobby
 
  • #36
You know, Emperors are absolutely rockin awesome filters, I used to run two on my 55 but when I shut it down I just threw them in an outside storage closet and forgot about them. As I move to saltwater, and since the 55 now hoses cp
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I am getting an 85 hex, and the emperor won't fit on top, not only that, I just have a totally opposite view of fi ltration on saltwater as I do freshwater...

Freshwater, Within reason, the more mechanical filtration and water movement the better, as long as there are calm spots for calm species. (obviously not wanted in a fast moving river system).

Saltwater, Little mechanical as possible, possibly just the ocassional polishing of the wtaer with a magnum and it's diatom filter, otherwise, for a well managed REEF system (And let me be clear I think Fish only tanks need a ton of filtration too) though, the Live rock and the protien skimmer should be enough, with your living clean up crew of crabs and snails, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, and other little goodies like cucumbers, al your solid waste gets broke down to chemical waste, and a protien skimmer removes what it can, live rock in it self is probably the best biological filter ever concieved, and takes care of the rest. If you need a chemical export system, grow caulerpa in a refugium, or rightin the tank if conditions merit. Getting rid of fillamentous algae is also nutrient export...

Back to the emperors... I pulled on out of a closet and sold it to a friend for 40 bucks (to help finance the hex) and he just plugged it in and went. His filtration had broken down a few days before and his tank was horrible. We watched an hour of TV, came back, clean tank, happy fish. They are amazing, and they only get better with age as the bio-wheels get colonized.

Eclipse systems on the other hand, I think are very cool, but because of their design, where the water flows across the filter pad and not always through it, I am not sure they are suited for tanks with large fish or a heavy load. I think they are great systems, don't get me wrong, and they are VERY sharp looking, I think they are a great addition to the hobby, I just think that they need to be kept lightly stocked, and serve as, well, show pieces... does that make sense? A place where you display perhaps a particulary stunning Betta, or in the larger eclipse systems, create a mini-reef and keep a few sea horses (I have seen two of these, no other filtration... because the sea horses are the only vertebrates, keeping up with it, FOR AN EXPERIENCED aquarist, is not all that hard.)

Another marineland product, I have to reluctantly give kudos to, is the Magnum 350... what a monster of a filter. When I was keeping the Bichar and the baby arrowan in the 55, plus all the plants, I was running the emperors AND two magnums. I eventually dropped the emperors as they stripped to much CO2 out of the water, believe it or not, when I stopped disrupting the surface, the plants began producing so much oxygen during the day you could see the bubbles rise off the leaves (for those that don't know, when a plant produces this much oxygen and it bubbles, it means that the water has reached 100% saturation of oxygen and can not hold anymore.) This is when I had greatest success with the plants and the fish. So in that case, more was not better.

The Magnums can really polish water, no doubt, but they have a glaring drawback... messy as heck to clean, not self prinimg self starting, unlike the newer Eheim and Fluval cannisters... when I thought my reef was going to need it, I was really looking at them, but I have now dropped them, at least for starters, from my list.

I think as the lion grows and starts getting a little messier, I might have to add one, at least intermittently.
 
  • #37
Hi RamPuppy,

Emperors are amazing. I wish Marineland would take the spray bar feature they have and put it on all their power filters. Then the small ones would be as good as the Emperors. I have never liked Magnums for the reasons you mention -- especially messy! I am a big Eheim fan. They last forever, are silent, do a great job and cost pennnies to run once you buy them.
I run a couple of 29 gallon Eclipses and believe it or not one tank has around 100 Phalloceros livebearers and the other one was just thinned down from about 60 nezzie swordtails to a breeding colony of 8. Now, I do 80% weekly water changes on these tanks and their diet is mainly live food but the Eclipse handles the load. I replace the cartridges with Aquaclear 500 sponges cut in half so that thick sponge traps alot of gunk. Also the tanks are full of potted plants which helps. But it is still amazing what those bio-wheels can handle. Plus they have enough light to grow plants.
I've never done saltwater although I have worked in a store where I dealt with it for a few years. An 85 reef tank sounds cool. I have always wanted a seahorse tank. Have you ever checked out the Ocean Rider webpage? It always tempts me big time. Tank raised horses that you can feed the freshwater mysis shrimp to and they are red! Those particular mysis shrimp are fat, rich looking little suckers. I buy them frozen for my freshwater fish. They are so different looking from saltwater mysis snrimp.

Bobby
 
  • #38
I'll have to check that site out!

I was really suprised at first you had such a huge load in two eclipses, but when you said plants, it makes sense... I did some experiments with plants a while back and while I don't have my hard data anymore, it is amazing you much they chemically process, a planted tank really is 'a whole different creature'.

I suspect that your using the sponges adds a lot as well, I am not a big fan of the filter cartridge that ships with the emperors or the Eclipses, they work good with the emperors by sheer force I think, but are too tight a weave for the eclipse. I also despise how much they cost, which is why I am a hard core recycler!

Oh, and you wanna talk bio-wheels, have you ever seen the bio-wheel that comes on the Marineland Tidepool! OMG! they are huge! I would be amazed I am sure at how much surface area they have, from memory, I would say they are abotu a foot, maybe a little more, (fuzzy) long, and maybe 6 to eight inches in diameter.

One of the big things I am a fan of in the saltwater half of things, is the move of refugiums becoming more popular, people are pulling all the technology out of their sumps, putting in lights, and throwing in huge amounts of live sand. They then plant caulerpa and other good macro algeas and seed it with micro-life (little crustaceans, sand stirrers, things of that nature), the micro life breeds and with a stir of the sand bed, gets sucked into the tank return, giving the fish a nice live source of food, the caulerpa and other macro algaes rapidly pull nitrates and other stuff from the water, and can be harvested and tossed, some can be used to feed herbivores like tangs, SELF SUFFICIENCY! VERY COOL&#33
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Another thing they are doing now, is planting mangrove trees in these refugiums... really, it is pretty cool, light powers nature, which does what man could not do nearly as effectively...
 
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