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Fair tax

JB_OrchidGuy

Cardiac Nurse
Are you for it or against it?? And why??

For those who do not know much about it yet. It is a tax that is being proposed to ELIMINATE federal income tax deductions from your paychecks, AND from businesses haveing to pay the Fica taxxes and all other taxxes. They will only pay taxxes when they buy retail goods. Best of all it would eliminate the need for our complicated Tax code and the IRS.

OK it will eliminate the 16th amendment that gives government the right to deduct taxxes.

The government will not take any income tax out or your paycheck or Social security or medicare taxxes.

Business people will no longer pay any taxxes for their employees.

By doing this the government figures the price of goods will drop on average of 22% due to that being the tax passdown to the consumer by the corperations.

Then the government will impliment a 23% tax that will already be incorperated into the price of good by the corperations. If something costs $100 it already has the governments cut already there.

EVERY head of household will recieve a check figured to the size of your household to cover the taxxes on nessisary goods up untill the poverty line. Its called a prebate and I do not have the figures in front of me at the moment.

So everyone will recieve all the money you make with the exception of state taxxes,a nd the figure this will cause the state governments to follow the feds too.

The tax will ONLY be applied to NEW items and services. Since they figure a 22% drop from taxxes off of goods then you add the 23 % the prices of good will generaly be left unchanged, but all your money will be comeing to you. The tax will not affect used goods and will only be applied to good sold on the retail level. Good will only ever be taxxed ONCE. Used homes will not have the taxxes. Used cars anything used will not be expected to pay the taxxes.

If you have any questions I can try to answer them or you can read the Fair tax book or go to www.fairtax.org.

If you agree then sign the petition at that website to show your support for the fair tax.
 
For it. Over 3 years and $22 million of research has been put into it (by researchers at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, and more). It's one of the most thought-out proposals ever introduced to Congress. If the poor are really smart about it, they can actually make a yearly profit from the rebate. The book written about Fair Tax was also on the top of the New York Times Best Seller list for weeks, so obviously people are interested. It demonstrates how much money the government can gather when it just eliminates a massive amount of waste. It just makes sense (which is why it will probably never happen... please surprise me, Congress).

http://www.fairtax.org/
 
wow..it sounds good!
and im for it if it will work as advertised..

just one question..what will make prices drop by 22%?
and how we do know they will?

Scot
 
I haven't read enough, but I think I would be against this. It's regressive in that it is yet another transfer of wealth to the ultra-rich.

Yes, the prebate covers goods up to the poverty line, but the middle class spends a LOT, percentage-wise, on retail goods. The ultra-rich spends very little, percentage-wise.

In principle, I'm all for a simpler tax code. But people can buy directly from overseas, and do other things to "cheat", and so some sort of IRS will still be necessary. Corporations still have to pay taxes on the retail goods they sell, so enforcement is still necessary. It would seem, also, to turn into a revenue loser, since people will be able to avoid paying tax by avoiding retail goods. Our economy is fueled by people buying things they don't really need, and I think psychologically people would be encouraged not to spend, and the market for used goods will face inflation.

It would be nice to see it tested in a local area to see what the real results are. The gulf between rich and poor has grown substantially over the past couple decades, and we don't want to do anything that pushes this further.

Capslock
 
The FAQ gives their feedback on those concerns...

Progressive vs. Regressive - Question #48

How much the rich spend vs. the poor - #12-15 (and others)

How much the actual face value of retail goods changes (barely at all) - #17, 24, 27, 47 and others

Buying from overseas - #32

The potential for tax evasion vs. the current system - #33

Where systems in the same vein have been successful already - #35

The money isn't really made up by significantly adding to the price of goods. Much of it is made up by eliminating a massive amount of waste... recovering money that goes down the toilet in just keeping the current bloated system functional (#20, 33, 44).
 
Hey,
Don't have much time right now, but at least in response to the question of Progressive vs. Regressive, the answer is less than satisfying.

It is based on actual expenditure on retail goods. Obviously , the more you buy, the more the prebate is rendered moot and the higher the percentate OF EXPENDITURES ON RETAIL GOODS the rich pay. But, the rich don't spend much of their money on retail goods. They invest it in stocks, and get pre-tax appreciation so that generations to follow never lose the wealth. The middle class, by contrast, spends a great deal of their income on retail goods, and still goes past their prebate. These are the people, under this scenario, that are passing their wealth on to the rich. The poor pay very little tax under either this system or the current system.

Also, by this system, the upper middle class family with $200,000 in income pays substantively the same as the CEO who makes $100 million. This isn't fair or progressive.

Capslock <-- would benefit greatly by the "fair tax" system, but doesn't think it's fair or truly progressive.
 
Oh sure, the people who've ponied up the millions of $ to push this have the interests of the poor at heart.

It's absolute crap and it has two purposes - to allow the rich to keep even more of their money and to cripple government.  But not the really scary parts of government.  Don't be a fool.
 
You guys seem to not be willing to open up to the point here. By eliminating the waiste and the middle and lower classes getting to keep more of their money the too can invest and do the same things the rich are doing. OK think about it. I will use myself as an example. I pay around 500 or so if not more in fed taxxes. If I continue to spend the same after this tax is passed then I will have an extra 500 in my pocket that I can use to pay off bills. Once the bills are paid off then I'm home free. Everyone is stuck on the poor poor poor and think they do not have the brains to get themselves out of it. In reality most are frugal with the money they have. Granted some are not and squander it away, but alot are. If the lower class continue to spend like theyt are forced to spend now but keep all their paycheck the will be gaining a net increase in cash flow. Remember this tax is not included on USED item. I myself buy alot of things at flea markets and out of for sale books when I can. THose goods are not taxxed so the poor will not be paying a higher percentage if most keep their spending the same. They will be spending less tax. Please don't be stuck on stupid. Do some research about it first before you go blowing up and say its bad for the poor. Hell I don;'t make great money myself but I have read the book and understand the principal. IT DOESN'T TAX USED ITEMS. SO my car I bought would be tax free since it was used and now that I have 500+ extra income coming in I can pay it off faster. The poor will have the same benefits as I see for myself. No you know good an well that a rich person will not buy used because he can afford new. He will be paying tax on the new item. Now that when I get my bill paid off I too can save the 1000 or so to get started in the stock market and hopefully get more money just like the rich. I think its a win win for everyone but your going to have to use the system to your advantage. The corperations that buy vehicles for their CEO will be paing tax and the ultra rich who buy a new car every year or the rappers that have 50 cars all with 20 inch rims will be paying taxxes. Stop being closed minded and think a little. I know I asked you what you thought, and I respect that, but now look at the bigger picture a min and accualy think. I asked my Micro economics teacher about what he thought and he spealed out the same rhetoric that I have read here and other boards I asked the same question too. He also told me he didn't read the book and his wife did and she loved it. He told me he was skeptical but didnt know all the ins and outs of the deal. Like endparintheses said there is potential to make money off the government with the prebate check. If you spend frugaly and supliment with a garden or something. And thnk about it most of the poor already do that. In fact I believe the poor wo are more frugal than my wife and I will make out like bandets and have the opprotunity to get ahead a little. Like the book says maybe there will be a time when social securety will no longer be the crutch it now is. The way it was intended not to be.
 
  • #10
I agree with the fair tax soley because I hate income tax laws. They give the government to much power in invading your privacy.
 
  • #11
That is another thing that the book sudjests will be fixxed. Personaly I wish we could get the government out of alot more of our business and go back to the 5% governing and 95% state governing like it was ment to be. BIG BROTHER I DON"T WANT YOU TRYING TO CONTROL ME ANYMORE!!! Hell a guy can barely fart now a days and not get in trouble.
 
  • #12
I agree that the IRS is intrusive, and our system is wasteful. I hate "Big Brother".

But if we're going to change the tax system, it shouldn't transparently shift the burden off the wealthy and on to the middle class, which this system does. It can probably be tweaked to work, and it's a lot simpler that what we do now. Maybe if you taxed investments and all property purchases as well, it might help. But the downside is that all these things discourage buying stuff, and that will hurt the economy badly.

Capslock
 
  • #13
Not really. and the burdon is already on the middle class and off the wealthy so haw can that be a problem with the new tax? The wealthy alreayd get out of paying most of their taxxes. I believe everyone should pay their share and as bad as it may sound I do not believe in charging someone more because they have more money. No store would do that and neither should the government. Property wil be taxxed if its a new building on that property. I still do no understand how this will hurt the poor. I really don't. I have had people say it would take a greater percentage of the poors money, but I don;t belive that. Maybe statisticly it may seem that way, but I duno about the poor people in their minds. The real poor and working class do not always buy new anyways. Maybe cloths and food, but there willbe a prebate to get most of those taxxes. Many of the real poor buy from flea markets and goodwill and places like that hell I shop at those places. The tax will not be present there. I buy used cars the tax will not be there. I bought a used home the tax is no there. Just on the New items, and again you will be getting a prebate to cover the taxxes of the good up to the poverty level. And remember everyone get it. You, me and Mr Gates. The rich re not going to suddenly start buying used. They still will buy new because they can afford it. Prices should stay the same because of the built in tax cost of items already leavingand being replaced. It probably would take a min for the laws of competition to bring them down, but it will. It happened with the airlines back in the 80's. I do not agree with socialism or comunism. Take everyones wealth and dipserse it equaly to everyone. Nope not for me. Thats what I believe people who want to tax the rich more because they have more money want to do. I think everyone whould pay equaly. Hell I would be ok with a flat 10% or 15% tax for everyone just get rid of the loopholes and make everyone pay it. I just think that this system in my opinion is much fairer than the current system.
 
  • #14
That works fine in theory, and with a level playing field, but that's not the reality. Our economic system is stacked so that the wealthy tend to accumulate more and more money. The statistics are very easy to demonstrate, and the gap between rich and poor is growing by leaps and bounds - and has been for some time. Think of a game of Monopoly - eventually one guy ends up with all the money. One safeguard against this is the progressive income tax. It would be truly disastrous, without any other remedies, to enact a tax policy that transfers even more wealth to them.

The policy proposed above doesn't necessarily hurt the poor. But it certainly benefits the rich - since they don't spend as much on retail goods as the middle class does as a percentage of their income. So, someone has to pay the bills, and if it's not the poor, and not the rich, it's the middle class. So this policy, while an admirable simplification, will only exacerbate the already-growing class differentiations - to the detriment of our economy. I don't want to make everyone equally rich. I believe in the profit motive and capitalism. But I also believe in a healthy society where there really is opportunity for everyone. Stacking the deck further in favor of the rich only hurts that. Nobody can look at our economy today and think that the problem is that the middle class needs to transfer money to the wealthy. Yet that's what this proposal does.

Fairness isn't necessarily accomplished by equal rates. Because the "game" isn't played by equal rules. Believe me, I would benefit by this policy. I make good money. But money doesn't do me any good when it hurts society as a whole.

Capslock
 
  • #15
Well. That is a good rebutal, but I still think it would help out the poor to the rich alike. I know I'm not going to stop buying new when I need too. I just think that this system will benefit everyone. Just so happens will beneift the rich too. You say that its going to benefit you then what is it to not benefit the personmaking minum wage? He is no longer going to have taxxes taken from his check. He will have more in his pocket too Plus be getting the prebate check. Don;'t get me wrong I se where your coming from. Statisticly they are paying a higher percentage of their income on food and clothing than the rich do, but thats happeneing now. If anything those that are makin less than poverty will be doing better under this system. Because the prebate is based on the poverty line. I have always felt for some time that a tax similar tothis would bring in more money to the government than it know. I don;t believe the tax would stay at 23% for very long once they seen how much it would bring in. Oh well you know what tey say everyone has an opinion. I was just curious to know how many people Liked it with me.
 
  • #16
If someone's getting richer, then someone else is getting poorer. That's just how it goes. There's only so much money in the world. This tax doesn't create or gather any new resources; it only redistributes what we already have. Somebody will always be poor until the population goes down, way down. And once it does, there will be no distinction between rich and poor (providing that the wealth somehow becomes evenly distributed, which is unlikely.) You can point to as many people as you like and say they'll benefit, but the truth of the matter is that some folks are poor because there just isn't enough money to go around. Changing tax laws isn't going to change that, and in reality, it can't - it can only change where the money is going. The wealthy aren't just going to give up their excess cash to the poor man to even things out. Money runs this country, and there isn't a doubt in my mind that this will only pass if it helps the rich get richer (or hides the fact that they're getting richer.) If you think it's going to help the little man, then that's great, but someone has to get shafted in the process. Like Capslock said, if it's not the poor and not the rich, it's the middle class.
~Joe
 
  • #17
So the tax will take less money from the poor, the rich, and everyone in between.  While generating even more money for the government.  What's not to like about that?  The only question is whether the system will be run by someone with a magic wand or will it be more of Jesus and the loaves & fishes kind of thing?
 
  • #18
Well, seedjar I don't believe you about only so much money to go around. At the moment there is not enogh prinited cash money to go to everyone if they took out all their money out of the banks. Thats a big thing they were worried about people doing back during the melenium debokle. Our money is not backed by gold anymore. So I duno what the solution is, but I still do not believe its going to hurt the poor. Many are going to be better off in my opinion. Thanks everyone for your replys, but I guess people already have their minds made up. I would like to know where the supporters were though because I only saw one person with a posotive say on the matter, and I postes this same question on 3 boards and so far only one supports and a hand full (5 or so) of nay sayers.
 
  • #19
So you're saying that you can just magically materialize money out of nothing, then? Perhaps you have a bridge to sell me, too.
There's a big difference between paper currency and the power and resources it represents; don't mistake the map for the territory. Simply put, there aren't enough resources for every human being; that's why people are starving in the third world. It's not that we can't print enough dollar bills - it's that there's not enough food, not enough power, not enough clothing, not enough oil, not enough homes. Resources occur in finite amounts, and that's what makes them resources. That's why we have money to begin with - to represent the goods we have earned but have yet to collect. The bottom line is that a tax plan can't just 'make' new money or the resources it represents; the money has to come from somewhere.
~Joe
 
  • #20
The more and more I thought about it after I posted the responce it made sence, but you will accualy be freeing up recousces with the fairtax.  You would eliminate waste in the federal government and corperate sectors that with a sinpler tax code can be shifted to other places.  Now the third world countries I duno how to explain it without sounding crual.  So I will do my best.  The settlers back when this country got started did not have people to help then by Giving them money.  They were tought how to grow certain crops by the indians.  They invented things as the problems came up.  I do not understand why our poor forefathers were able to make this great nation we have now, but others can't rise up to the occasion and make something out of what they have.  I don;t want to sound crual in saying that.  Help people to better themselves and stop giving everything and help them be selfsaficiant.  I believe that is what the fiartax will help do make more and more of the poor and low middle class more selfsaficiant.  I know not everyone has to be stuck in the poor class.  They can rise themselves up.  Many of them have a good sence on their sholders if given a chance.  I think this will be the helping hand they need, but thats my opinion.  I dunowhat to say about 3rd world countries  I duno why someone can't help out and help them to be self saficiant.  They not only need aid, but schooling to fend for themselves so they can better themselves.  It can happen I feel it.  People sometimes by trying to help someone end up accualy holding them back in the state of demendancy they are in.  Just like loving someone to much.  Giving a child everything they want and whenever they get into a jam bailing them out lead to nothing but depndancy in most cases.  When finaly made to sink or swim alot of time they swim.  Keep in mind I never said all the time.
 
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