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The immigration issue -- my $0.02

  • #21
Well here is my 2 cents.

I work in construction. My trade is FLOODED with illegals. To give you an idea, there are 170 people from all the various trades working in the building I am right now. Yesterday there were less than 80 on site. Personally I dont really have a problem with anyone who shows up every day, works hard and is a team player. Unfortunately, There are quite a few serious issues that arise from employing illegals. The language thing is a VERY serious issue. Its not just about being annoying when you cant talk to a guy. If a man is doing something dangerous, and doesnt understand when someone yells stop, things can get ugly in a big hurry.

Another problem from the language barrier is when they pretend to understand you instead of admitting they dont and getting someone to interpret. There is nothing more infuriating to me on the job than when I tell a man to do a task and he nods and smiles and says "Yes I understand" then an hour later I check up on him and hes doing things completely different than what I told him to do. On the job, time is money. It gets really expensive having to do the same job twice simply because the man I asked to do it lied to me. Not to mention I am the one who has to get called to the carpet by the boss when schedules are not met, materials are wasted, ect ect...

The other issue I have is, many of these people have no intention of ever becomming citizens. They come here to earn the good wages in the US, then they send all that money back to their own countries. They work here for 10 years, let us foot the bill to feed, educate, and give medical care to their children, then go home and live like kings. If we try to cut back on the freebees then all the @%&#! bleeding hearts start screaming about how thats not "fair".. I'll tell you whats not fair.. its watching over a third of my income taken away from me so that the programs that allow and encourage this behavior can be funded. Someone said something about the children shouldnt be punished for what the parents do.. Personally, I dont see how they are punished.. they shouldnt be here in the first place. If they dont like not having their children cared for then either enter through the proper channels, or GO HOME!!

Anyway, I have ranted enough... As said, there are no obvious easy solutions (although personally I wouldnt mind to see them all rounded up and deported en masse). For now I guess we just do what we have been doing all along.. deal with it as best we can.

Cheers
Steve
 
  • #22
Instead of taking pride in their own country and making a difference there, they cross the border. Once here, they don't seem to take pride in this country either, or their own neighborhoods for that matter. And yes, they sport the flag of the country that wasn't good enough for them. We have asian communities in many of the larger cities, but they contribute to their country, even if they don't speak our language.

On the other hand our country would be a lot poorer with out people to do our unskilled labor. I'd be willing to live with that, many people wouldn't. You just have to come to terms with you position on the global wealth scale and decide for yourself wether you want to keep your spot and the social issues that come with it, or just slip down the scale a few notches.

Peter
 
  • #23
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]On the other hand our country would be a lot poorer with out people to do our unskilled labor.

actually ive got a solution to that Peter, all those who chose to sit on wellfair just to collect a check could be shipped out to where ever fruit or veggies need to be picked to pay back what hey owe..................hows that sound?
 
  • #24
Does anyone who wants to deport all illegal immigrants and build a secure barrier between the U.S. and Mexico have an estimate of the costs involved?
 
  • #25
you figuring if the feds do it or if private entities do it? its being started in some areas by private individuals just to show the government how cheaply it can be done. no barrier is total secure but it would be simple enough to build a fence and enforce the border to the point of drastically slowing down whats happening. stop it totally? course not but it would make a difference
 
  • #26
I'll prolly get stomped on for this, but I think we've got enough darn people in this country and stop all immigration. I don't have a problem with legal people, more power to them, but speak English, read and write it. I hate going down South and listening to a bunch of mumbo jumbo crap whereever you go. Makes you feel like you're in freaking Mexico.
 
  • #27
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'll prolly get stomped on for this, but I think we've got enough darn people in this country and stop all immigration.

Including legal? Then where will we get our graduate students and who will make advances in physics or math? The few who manage to escape the US educational system with a functional brain? We're spread way too thin; without smart people from overseas, you're gonna have to quadruple your tuition in order to pay for all the adjunct faculty to keep up with the grading and coursework.

Legal immigration allows us to filter and aquire the new people we want, giving us people with above-average skills and intellect. The same cannot be said of the woefully-undereducated bulk of the native born.

Mokele
 
  • #28
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't have a problem with legal people

i think he ment the legal ones are fine but all border jumpers(illegals) shouldnt be considered he will have to clarify though.

as far as the legal ones, my wife works with an Indian(India), a Norwegian, and i think a Japanese(i havent him asked and Darla doesnt work on his team) here in the middle of nowhere. not sure if they are here on work visas or are trying to becoe or now are US citizens. all are good ppl doing computer programing with her. these types are the ones i dont have a problem with. all understand english perfectly well though the Oriental fellow is difficult to understand do to his accent as is the Norwegian. actually funny thing is even though im about 35-45% Norge myself the freaking Norwegian accent is the hardest for me to understand.
 
  • #29
i dont know if it realtes to what is the mood right now, but something interesting. some years ago, mexico said that their economy wasnt run by US money. they were wrong! mexico needs us for the money that we bring in as tourists. then again we need mexico for the workers, and for the legal ones, we need them to pay taxes to pay off the remainder people that are gonna get social security.

seems that mexicans are the ones that are targeted more, especially because US neighbors mexico. what about the asians, islanders, and dont get stated with middle easterns and what not. isnt that the reason they started that immigration law thing, for TERRORISTS!? but somehow no one mentioned middle eastern, only mexicans.

there is always good and bad people in every corner of this earth.

what would happen if US went to a war, or even worse, a "TOTAL WAR!". like it was back then with the blacks, white US said that a black man can take a bullet as a white man can. sure an immigrant can take a bullet as a US citizen can...
 
  • #30
I understand that it can be frustrating working with someone who can't speak or understand english but that should be a minor issue. Afterall there is no official language of the U.S. and to say that they have to learn english is just saying that you're too lazy to learn a 2nd language yourself.

The first major issue as I see it is the border. There's a reason we have a border and so far that border has just been blurred out of existance. We need a solid border, not only to keep out illegal immigrants but possible terrorists using our weak southern border as a front to cross over.

The second issue involving the illegal immigrants that already are here. They can mostly be dealt with by the upcoming issues but overall just leave them be. It would be too impossible to deport all of them and it would only cost us more money to do that.

Health care issue. We need someone to bill. Even though they are stealing our health care I don't think it would be right to completely cut them off especially when in dire need. Just because they crossed the border does not mean we are responsible for them. The U.S. should bill the Mexican gov't everytime an illegal uses our health care. If not a direct bill to the gov't, some kind of price fixiation on imports/exports could be used. Some kind of burden needs to be put on Mexico.

Car insurance. Same thing as earlier, we need someone to bill. If an illegal gets in a car accident, bill Mexico.

Deportation. It costs us money to detain and export illegals. Mexico should have to pay these costs.

Citizenship. Create more areas close to the border where information and applying for citizenship can occur. This would encourage more people to get naturalized then just cross the border.

Just my $.02. Somehow Mexico needs to be burdened for their citizens crossing the border. Right now the gov't could careless, if they were being fined left and right I'm sure they would help us create a more solid border.
 
  • #31
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I understand that it can be frustrating working with someone who can't speak or understand english but that should be a minor issue. Afterall there is no official language of the U.S. and to say that they have to learn english is just saying that you're too lazy to learn a 2nd language yourself.

But I think that we've established that it IS a problem. The official language of the US IS English de facto (just not at the federal level.) We've had members post here, even, saying that it can lead to a dangerous situation, and that's a big deal. No? I don't think it'd be fair to call Steve lazy for not learning Spanish when it's not the language generally spoken. You could suggest that he may want to learn some terms but the whole point is that it should be the other way around.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]seems that mexicans are the ones that are targeted more, especially because US neighbors mexico. what about the asians, islanders, and dont get stated with middle easterns and what not.

I think it's just a matter of numbers. The US shared a borded with Mexico, so there's a greater influx of illegal immigrants from Mexico, than from, say, Asia because of plain logistics and geography.


------
I'm note sure if billing Mexico would really help the situation. They don't smile upon people trying to leave the country illegally (and they sure as HECK don't like it when people come in to Mexico illegally.) The whole problem seems to be an economic one, and I'm not sure if further burdening Mexico is the way to help the situation. I'm not trying to start an aguement or something, just trying to discuss this -to clarify.-
 
  • #32
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Est @ May 03 2006,10:14)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I understand that it can be frustrating working with someone who can't speak or understand english but that should be a minor issue.  Afterall there is no official language of the U.S. and to say that they have to learn english is just saying that you're too lazy to learn a 2nd language yourself.

...I don't think it'd be fair to call Steve lazy for not learning Spanish when it's not the language generally spoken.  You could suggest that he may want to learn some terms but the whole point is that it should be the other way around.
....HMMMM.... i think now its a must to learn a second language since most schools require it, unless if you are lazy. those who learn a second language or that already know a second language, english, like me, have better chances of getting hired in a densely populated area of immigrants or in an area that is highly diverse.

i dont know if anyone knows but i wasnt born here in the US. im not even a citizen, just a perm. res.
 
  • #33
Not trying to step on toes here, but if your not a citizen, and do not have the propper documentation you shouldn't be living here. I have no problems with imigration. NONE WHAT SO EVER!! Just play by the rules laid out by this country. Granted it may need to be streamlined, but what beurocracy(SP) doesn't need to be. Illegals are KILLING our healthcare system. Like andrew said many hospitals are closing up shop trying to pay for the emergent care of illegals. The thing is since they do not have healthcare, that means they will go to the ER for any caugh fart burp sneeze you name it. That is their Primary care. Ever wonder why it takes you 8 hours when you go to the ER?? Thats part of the problem. Granted there are a lot of citizens that do the same thing, but those are citizens. Illegals are not suposed to be here in the first place. I work in a hospital, and luckily we are not that effected, but its getting bad. I think we might be the only hospital in the area making a profit, but thats hearsay. I don't know that for a fact. Like Steve said they work here make good money then skip out on paying taxes, and then send all the money home use our resources and then leave most of the time. Its rediculous. Just like a dang locust. Now someone might say that they give fake SSN because taxes are withheld, but if you claim 4 or even higher they take out little taxes, and then if you don't file then the governemtn gets no taxes. Thats why I am so much for the fair tax. Everyone who buys goods here in the states illegal or not will pay taxes. I hate paying them myself, but I do think everyone should pay tier fair share, and illegals are not. So not only are they using our recources for personal gain, but they are not paying their share for it. The ones that play by the rules and either are born here or immigrants are footing the bill. Now the issue on children of illegals. NO THEY SHOULD NOT GET AUTOMATIC CITIZENSHIP!! Its just another burden on our already strugling healthcare system. Their parents shouldn't have been here in the first place!! Granted I for one do not want to be seen as a heartless b@st@rd, but give me a break. They come over when they are 9 months pregnent. Have the baby in one of our ERs and Boom there is their ticket to staying here. Circumvent the proper channels. Personaly I am sick and tired of paying for the freeloaders in this country. I am not so heartless not to help someone, but there is a different in getting help and being a freeloader. I am all for helping someone get on their feet, but dang it. IF YOU ARE NOT OUT TRYING TO HELP YOURSELF THEN TO HECK WITH YOU!!! This not only goes for illegals, but it goes for ANY freeloader that means all the citizens on welfare wo purposfully work at mcdonalds parttime so they don't make too much money, so they can collect a check, or the ones that falsify who they live with so they can collect the pell grant that grossely over pays for tuition so these students get a 1000 sometimes more dollar check at the appropriate time during each semester, but here I am I have an ok Job and make way to much money, and its not much, to even think about getting pell to help me out. I am lucky we have a thing called the hope grant here in GA or I wouldn't be going to school. I'm just sick of all freeloaders.
 
  • #34
Very well said Josh. I will have to add that the learning of English HAS to be a must for citizenship. It is much more then just a burden it can be very dangerous and even deadly in the right circumstances. It should not be a requirement for Police Officers in the USA to learn Spanish in order to safely deal with either people that are here illegally or even legally. It should be the responsibility of the people who want to come here to know our langauge so they know what the police officer is telling them.
 
  • #35
like i said, those who know a second language are most likely to get a raise or get paid more...

JB_OrchidGuy, are you talking about me or are you beating around the bush? not getting mad or nothing just a topic and let everyone know how we feel about this topic. but remember that this happend a long time ago too, hey there might be an immigrant or two in bloodlines here today so it would be weired saying this now, dont you think? but of couse we have to look at it now!
 
  • #36
[b said:
Quote[/b] (wolf9striker @ May 03 2006,2:26)]...It should not be a requirement for Police Officers in the USA to learn Spanish in order to safely deal with either people that are here illegally or even legally.  It should be the responsibility of the people who want to come here to know our langauge so they know what the police officer is telling them.
see, targeting mexicans or hispanics? what about the others, what about china town, korea town, little tokyo, little saigon, little india and so on...
 
  • #37
The US, via World Bank/WTO/NAFTA, forces other countries to eliminate their tariffs & subsidies and open their borders to be flooded with subsidized US agricultural products.  Is it any wonder that a flood of people whose livelihoods we've destroyed might come here to try make some money to support their families?  The issue's bigger than that, of course, but we've undermined one national economy after another and it's wishful thinking to believe we can grow fat from the rewards without bearing any of the costs.

And, unless we model our southern border on the Berlin Wall, complete with land mines and snipers, it won't stop people from crossing.  Even then it won't prevent illegal immigration; it'll just divert it.  Think of the War on Drugs, but with people trying to stay alive instead of just get high.  Starving people don't go quietly.  When I was a kid, I was taught that razor wire and machine guns only belong on the borders of places like East Germany.  Whether killing people to keep them in or to keep them out, it was un-American then and it's un-American now.

As for the language thing, it's one of the enduring red herrings of US politics.  Immigrants don't always learn the language, but most of their children and all of their grandchildren will.  It's always been that way and it always will be.  I live in a neighborhood of immigrants and there are plenty of households where the oldest generation doesn't know English, the next generation speaks with a heavy accent; and the next sounds as American as my daughter.

As for the police, we've slashed social spending to the point where the police are the only social workers and therapists many people ever see.  What's a little language training if a police officer already needs to be a MSW and a PhD?  More to the point, if a community has a significant Spanish presence, it's entirely reasonable for at least some of the police be fluent in Spanish and the others know some phrases.  A police officer who'd refuse to learn some words that might save his/her life or someone else's life would be a fool.
 
  • #38
well said herenorthere.
im not all for immigration as i know about its downside.
 
  • #39
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]what about the asians, islanders, and dont get stated with middle easterns and what not. isnt that the reason they started that immigration law thing, for TERRORISTS!? but somehow no one mentioned middle eastern, only mexicans.

A person's nation of origin has little to do with whether they're a terrorist or not. Need I remind people about the IRA or the Oklahoma City Bombing?

The purpose of immigration laws is to control how many people come in for economic reasons and to monitor who comes and goes. Too many new people can flood the economy, so the rate must be controlled. Terrorism is a modern concern overlaid upon the original reasoning.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I understand that it can be frustrating working with someone who can't speak or understand english but that should be a minor issue.

As others have reminded you, in certain fields, it would be dangerous to not have the same language fluently spoken. I wouldn't take someone into the field with me if they couldn't understand english perfectly; in the time it takes me to mentally translate, they'd've already stepped on the gabon viper and had 50 cc's of highly toxic venom pumped into them.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Afterall there is no official language of the U.S. and to say that they have to learn english is just saying that you're too lazy to learn a 2nd language yourself.

I know 3 languages, counting english. However, Spanish happens to not be one of them. I'm certainly not 'lazy' in that standard, but I still cannot understand them. If we see a huge hypothetical surge of immigration from Quebec, should we all be forced to learn French too?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ].... i think now its a must to learn a second language since most schools require it, unless if you are lazy. those who learn a second language or that already know a second language, english, like me, have better chances of getting hired in a densely populated area of immigrants or in an area that is highly diverse.

But *which* second language? I know english, latin and Japanese, but I don't know spanish. It's one thing to say "learn a second language", but another to specify which. For me, latin was a *far* superior investment of my time, since I use it every day.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]see, targeting mexicans or hispanics? what about the others, what about china town, korea town, little tokyo, little saigon, little india and so on...

Well, the hispanic population is the one that's the largest, and the fastest growing. Just by chance, they'll be the biggest concern.

Mokele
 
  • #40
You completely missed the point of learning a second language. I'm not specifically calling anyone lazy or saying that it should be forced upon us to learn a second language. All I was trying to say is that it is a small problem in the bigger picture.

Instead of saying that they should learn and be able to speak clear english, we should be looking at the employers and saying: You shouldn't hire people who can't speak english. It's the EMPLOYER who's causing the dangerous risk, not the worker.
 
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