The immigration issue -- my $0.02

[SarraceniaScott]

I don't think anybody has any good solutions, which means the debate will be especially rancorous, but here are a few things I think:

* Whenever you have a rich nation adjoining a poor one, there will be incredible pressure to migrate to the rich nation, by any means necessary.

* I am not convinced that enforcing our borders (using means that would be condoned by citizens of a democratic nation) would reduce illegal immigration even to a "reasonable" level.

* I don't want illegal immigrants to be abused because they fear going to the police.

* I don't want to deny essential entitlements to the children of illegal immigrants. No child should have to pay for what their parents do. Those who wish to deny children of illegal immigrants health care and education because "they don't pay into the system" -- where do you think that will leave these children in 10-20 years? What options will they have to support themselves? Is such a policy more or less likely to cause them to turn to crime (or to create a permanent 'underclass'), than simply absorbing the cost of educating them?

* The US does an excellent job of assimilating immigrants. Our diverse population is generally at peace, especially in comparison to other parts of the world.

* Guest worker programs carry a great risk of making the guest workers "inferior" to the citizens. Look at Europe -- guest workers there are marginalised and balkanised, and ready to riot at the drop of a pin.

* Any legal means of immigration designed to stem the tide of illegal immigration needs to try to remove the incentive to cheat.

I look at all these basic ideas, and I don't see an easy solution.

 

[swords]

*Anyone not native american is an immigrant.

(please keep this in mind suring the ensuing s#^@ fire...)

 

[rattler]

the "native americans" came from Asia originally and are also immigrants.

as long as the immigrants are gainfully employed and learn to speak ENGLISH i really dont care, but if your coming over to sit on well fare stay where ever you are. watching the protests yesterday one thing stood out and really bugged me, if they want to assimilate into the USA and become American citizens WTF are they doing waving the Mexican flag? im proud of my heritage but if i was trying to get another country to accept me i would be waving the hell out of that countries flag and not my own.

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] ] im proud of my heritage but if i was trying to get another country to accept me i would be waving the hell out of that countries flag and not my own.

That's one thing I thought of a while back, too. It does seem a little bit silly.

Anyone trying trying to tell you that getting US citizenship prevents you from retaining your identity, culture and pride for your country of origin, is feeding you BS. Anyone telling you that only speaking their native language is the only way to retain your identity (etc) is feeding you BS.

But there's no perfect solution. I have an idea as to what would be a good start, but other people might disagree. But what can be agreed upon is that there are certain arguments made that are moot.

 

[rattler]

ididnt say you had to only speak English here, just said you have LEARN TO SPEAK AND READ ENGLISH well enough to function. the USA is an english speaking country there for in order to become a citizen i really do think you need to understand the countrys chosen language. i wouldnt move to Mexico and expect everyone to understand english so that i could cope. it is my responsibility to understand that countrys chosen language enough to function in it.

 

[Capslock]

SarraceniaScott, I think your analysis is excellent. I also don't have any good solutions, either.

Did anyone else see Bush complaining that the National Anthem should be sung in English only? He forgot, apparently, that he had it sung in Spanish at his inauguration, and at campaign stops along the way. He even joined in at times. LOL!

By the way, I live in a heavily hispanic neighborhood. I have no problem with them, and find that, IN GENERAL, they are hard workers just trying to do what's right for their families. The freeloaders should get the boot, ASAP, though.

Capslock

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] (rattler_mt @ May 02 2006,2:11)]ididnt say you had to only speak English here, just said you have LEARN TO SPEAK AND READ ENGLISH well enough to function. the USA is an english speaking country there for in order to become a citizen i really do think you need to understand the countrys chosen language. i wouldnt move to Mexico and expect everyone to understand english so that i could cope. it is my responsibility to understand that countrys chosen language enough to function in it.

Exactly, that's a problem I've always had. I can understand if the elderly are too old to learn a brand new language, but I'm tired of having people get outraged at me when I don't speak their language in an English speaking country. I think it would be perfectly wonderful for people to bilingual, and surely an asset to society- it doesn't have to be one or the other.

You should hear my household, language changes ever 3 seconds. The first time I bring a friend over, they get confused when one of my parents says something to me because only bits of it end up being in Enlgish (though both are fluent in English, they're just used to talking to me in mixed.)

But it isn't only Mexicans, or something: there's very many people of Asian origin who simply do not speak any English. And that's something to remember.

 

[bugfreak]

i personally am not in a mood to debate the issue but there was this one incident that made me upset:

my husband's work bought all the Mexican workers a nice wristwatch if they showed up on Monday. wtf so they get a reward for showing up on a regularly scheduled work day? where's the prize for the non-Hispanics who showed up for work? my husband didn't get jack squat. he showed up for work as expected.

my half a cent

 

[Tropics]

A lot of immigrants want to learn to read and speak English because it would enable them to get better jobs, which is what they came to the U.S. for. However, they have to work and take care of their families, leaving no time to go to class to learn English. Cost is another limiting factor. It’s one thing to say that immigrants have to learn English, but it’s another thing to make that happen by creating the opportunities to enable them to do so.

 

[adnedarn]

There are many things that anger me on this topic. I live in Tucson as many of you know... All the SonMex people driving around here, with no insurance driving like idiots- then whent hey hit you, the cops let them go because they dont' carry insurance or anything... And since they are not USA citizens, you cannot take them to court (they say that's what under- insured is for....) ----Advertisement banners are going to spanish around here now, as previously stated by others, the launguage thing bothers me ALOT!---All of our emergency rooms here are closing down... why bring that up? Well, if an illegal gets hurt here (In the long hike across the desert, in a car chase from the cops whatever) we fix them on our own funds then send them back. So they can try to make it again... the hospitals cannot fund it, so they are closing. There is sooo much more that I'm not even going to get into. It is the ONLY reason I've disscussed moving from Tucson, Arizona to be honest. Now that's messed up... I'm thinking of moving because of all the illegals and general over run of non Americans. It seems they treat here as Mexico. Not Arizona. It feels like an invasion to me.

Andrew

 

[rattler]

was refering to all countries of origins, we have a chinese family here running a restraunt. their english is poor but its getting better every month and we can usually get through to each other. the point is they realize they need to know english and are trying.

personally my wife and i know a smattering of german and a few other languages, not enough to function very well in any of the countries but we do use foriegn words and phrases when talking to each other, especially when we dont want the girls to understand though they seem to catch on fast.

on my moms side of the family im only the third generation off the boat from Norway. i have no problems with ppl looking for a better life here. but my great grand parents learned english and while Norwiegian was spoke alot at home they and their kids learned english as well cause THIS IS AMERICA and not "New Norway"

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] ]was refering to all countries of origins

Oh, of course, I was just pointing out for anyone who may not know, and to make sure people know I'm not just picking on Mexicans or something.

I don't expect an immigrant to this country to already know English and all of its nuances. All I ask is that there be an honest effort to try. It's not an like it's an impossible task, even if you work with people who speak languages other than English all day. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have a basic understanding of the language after living here for a couple of years.

And it doesn't have to be unidirectional (not that it is.) I've taken several years of Spanish- I'm not fluent because I've got other academic endevours to undertake, but the point is that it doesn't hurt people to know a bit of the language in an area where there are a lot of immigrants from a certain area.

 

[rattler]

you dont have to be fluent in a language to be able to function in it. if you can get your point across to 3 out of 4 ppl your doing good as far as im concerned. however if your the impatient sort who gets torqued when someone isnt getting your point, than you need to be more fluent in the language.

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]Anyone trying trying to tell you that getting US citizenship prevents you from retaining your identity, culture and pride for your country of origin, is feeding you BS.

That isn't strictly true. US citizenship requires (or required, see below) you to *renounce* alleigance and ties to your previous country, with the exception of countries with which you can have dual citizenship.

This is from direct personal experience; my folks emigrated here (with me, though I was only 4 months old at time) from the UK. We were eligible for citizenship after 7 or 8 years (I don't remember), but didn't apply because it would have required renouncing allegience and ties to the UK. Our family has been in the UK for well over 1000 years (documented, probably longer), and has been a noble line for much of that time; a (semi-close) member of our family is the Baron of Hastings. Renouncing ties was simply not an option; we got that Barrony by being Royalists, and given my political inclinations, that hasn't changed.

Fortunately, around about the mid 90's, the US government finally realized that, aside from some scuffles nearly 2 centuries ago and us burning down Washington DC, the UK and US have been allies ever since, and allowed dual citizenship. At that point, we became citizens.

However, at that point I stopped keeping track, and so I don't know what countries it's possible to have dual US & other citizenships with. The EU would be a fair bet. No idea about Mexico, though.

Quote[/b] ]im proud of my heritage but if i was trying to get another country to accept me i would be waving the hell out of that countries flag and not my own.

I could get away with it, but that's probably because of the whole 'we created you, and you only left because we had a totally crap king at that point'.

Quote[/b] ]the USA is an english speaking country there for in order to become a citizen i really do think you need to understand the countrys chosen language.

I dunno, for an english-speaking country, you still seem to have an awful lot of difficulty spelling colour correctly.

Sorry, I just had to; I love being the immigrant that can claim to have acclimated by learning to mis-spell things.

-----------

Anyhow, my biggest issue is the one of legality; My folks and I had to spend huge amounts of time and effort navigating the beurocratic nightmare that is the INS, and I'll have to do the same again soon to get my fiancee over here (also a UK native). I'm tremendously annoyed that others should get a free pass simply because they're adjactent and poor.

Quote[/b] ] I am not convinced that enforcing our borders (using means that would be condoned by citizens of a democratic nation) would reduce illegal immigration even to a "reasonable" level.

In terms of making them unpassable, I'd agree, at the moment, but I'm much more a fan of the idea of having a fence that functions primarily as a sensor, in order to alert authorities with greater accuracy of crossing events. Add some of the new robotic surveilance planes, and the problem becomes a lot more managable.

Quote[/b] ] Guest worker programs carry a great risk of making the guest workers "inferior" to the citizens. Look at Europe -- guest workers there are marginalised and balkanised, and ready to riot at the drop of a pin.

In that case, I'd argue that the devil is in the details, and that a suitably advanced guest worker system (perhaps with the number of visas per month depending upon unemployment and other economic stats) would make things much more palatable to all involved.

Quote[/b] ] Any legal means of immigration designed to stem the tide of illegal immigration needs to try to remove the incentive to cheat.

Perhaps making them inelligible for a guest visa for X amount of time if they get caught?

Mokele

 

[rattler]

Mokele, yah make some interesting points and about your comments on how us Yanks spell things, have you ever been to Canada? they say things funny:

about=aboot
lieutenant=leftenant
a=eh

they has some funny ways of saying things, eh?

 

[Mokele]

What're you talking aboot, eh?

 

[Dr. Frank Lyons]

As a doctor I have treated amny illegal Mexicans. I have no problem with this. But, if I committed a crime I would not be given the chance to gain acceptance. I would be labeld a felon and lose my right to vote, own a firearm etc... I can't accept giving preferrential treatment to those who break existing laws. It just doesn't seem right. And, giving gifts to those to show up to work, as mentioned here earlier, is a slap in the face of American workers. I had a petient at a car manufacturing plnat tell methat they were forced to trained illegals and then were laid off because the company could pay the illegals less. This just isn't right. There are lots of opinions. I do not dislike anyone based on where they are from. But, I firmly think that lall illegals should be returned to their country of origin. It is just not that difficult to gain legal access to this country. I don't want to step on anyones toes. This is just how I believe that this matter should be handled.

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] ]That isn't strictly true. US citizenship requires (or required, see below) you to *renounce* alleigance and ties to your previous country, with the exception of countries with which you can have dual citizenship.

You can still retain your identity, culture, and pride for your country of origin (as stated.) Half of my family now has dual citizenship with the US, and nothing has changed in that regard.

Quote[/b] ]I dunno, for an english-speaking country, you still seem to have an awful lot of difficulty spelling colour correctly.

If it's of any consolation, I spell it "colour."

I use most of the British/Queen's spellings, but I REFUSE to say "Aluminium." lol

Quote[/b] ]Anyhow, my biggest issue is the one of legality; My folks and I had to spend huge amounts of time and effort navigating the beurocratic nightmare that is the INS, and I'll have to do the same again soon to get my fiancee over here (also a UK native). I'm tremendously annoyed that others should get a free pass simply because they're adjactent and poor.

I share similar sentiments in that the INS is a piece of crap. The one in San Francisco is an abomination, and a crying shame. I wont get in to details here. But I can sympathize with you in that is was a pain in the bum to even get greencards (we literally won the greencard lottery; but even that took a long time.)

 

[rattler]

Doc. i like the way you think. welcome to the board.

ive got a friend, who is originally from Canada.he wanted to become an American citizen. dotted all the i's crossed all the t's and during the process he got deported twice(was here on work visa) before he got it done right. becoming a US citizen even when originating from a "friendly nation" isnt always a sure thing nor an easy thing

in general though i agree with your assesment Doc.

 

[rattler]

aluminium, thats a good one, first time i heard the british version i though they came up with a new alloy or something