I found this in the woods behind my house

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (SpyCspider @ May 31 2006,11:09)]...but how we as CP enthusiasts can place our own value in a habitat.  "Why not just ring the trees and kill them?" Poor trees. So many years of growing just to be sacrificed for some etiolated S. alatas that probably shouldn't be there in the first place...

I'm sorry I think I am valuing the habitat more than you realize. Historically these types of habitats would be burned almost annually due to forest fires. The arrival of humans upset that balance by preventing the fires and so the trees were "allowed" to take over areas where they would not have been normally. The S. alata were very likely there in the first place and have more of a "right" to exist there than the trees.

The ringing of the trees may sound drastic but only if you do not actually know the history of the habitat. This same technique has been used by conservation groups to restore other threatened Sarracenia habitats (most notably the S, montana bogs in GA). And there are similar conservation groups that do controlled burns for the same reason.

So it is not "Poor trees. So many years of growing just to be sacrificed for some etiolated S. alatas that probably shouldn't be there in the first place."

It should be:

Poor S. alata. Being chocked out of their rightful habitat by trees because people had to come in and screw up the whole ecosystem.

 

[srduggins]

I have been lurking around in this thread for a couple days and decided it was time I posted. I usually spend all my time in the Nepenthes board.

I know how petty some church people can become, but we are not all like that. I for one am very happy you found your son and know how troubling a situation like that can be. To return home to a house on fire just boggles the mind. My heart goes out to you. I'd like to help. Since I am so far away, I can pray for you, your family and your church. I can also offer a CP care package. I'm not really sure what you grow, but I have a VFT for the little girl, some misc. Drosera, and an 18 month old Nepenthes ventricosa seedling. PM me if interested.

I have one brother, (and his wife), who lived in a manse for years before recently purchasing their own home. I am sure they are quite happy not having to deal with a committee every time they want to change something. I have another brother displaced by Katrina who happens to be in the roofing business. He forces himself to take one day a week off, otherwise he would be busy 16/7.

Back on topic, I'm not really a conservation expert, but tend to agree with Pyro. It would be best to restore the habitat. I'm glad you were able to rescue a couple plants for yourself.

 

[SpyCspider]

Ok,

While I agree with Pyro in that the act of reducing tree growth for CP survival probably agrees with what should have happened prior to human encroachment, as evidenced by many well-managed fires that park services employ, I think IN THIS PARTICULAR situation, you can't just go around hacking trees without people noticing when tall trees start to topple.  If you want to get rid of some shrubs, that's fine.  But ringing trees so an open space can develop is going to take time and drastically change the landscape...and all for some S. alatas.  But hey, if it can work, more power to you.  It IS your property, I guess.

 

I'm just saying at this point in time with people living there and such, clearing out tall trees may be harder than just digging up the plants and transferring them to a better place.  While not the same as a Southern savannah, we all know how a northern bog transitions in the wild.  The forest edge encroaches on the open water and gradually, what used to be a lake/bog becomes filled with pines and finally with oaks and hardwoods.  The bog is gone as a result.  That's succession as well and not due to human involvement.

When you do something to correct something else, you're still introducing human factors to an environment, even if the intention is to correct what has been done before.

 

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (SpyCspider @ May 31 2006,1:12)]I think IN THIS PARTICULAR situation, you can't just go around hacking trees without people noticing when tall trees start to topple.  If you want to get rid of some shrubs, that's fine.  But ringing trees so an open space can develop is going to take time and drastically change the landscape...and all for some S. alatas.  But hey, if it can work, more power to you.

My first post in the thread basically covered everything you seem to be objecting to:

Quote[/b] ] More labor intensive but still functional. Not nearly as whole out "destruction" either. You'd still need land owner permission though.

-I said it was labor intensive and it is. It would probably require yearly upkeep to ensure thae habitat.

-I said it is not as destructive as fire and that is true. It also does not require quite the level of coordination as a fire since you'd need to go though the fire dept. to do a burn.

-I also said the the property owner would need to give permission. To give permission they would have to be informed and if they were informed it is not as if they would "suddenly" discover that the trees were dying. I never once implied or suggested that the ringing be done secretly or without concent and I would never condone such an action.

I guess what I am getting at is that I don't really understand your objections to what I am saying when I have already answered the questions you seem to be putting forth as arguments against it.

Quote[/b] ]...and all for some S. alatas.

With this I do kind of agree with you. I was discussing this with a friend and he put it rather well. Not quoting him directly but the gist is that there are a lot of S. alata sites in Mississippi and you have to be philosophical about the matter. What would be the purpose of saving/digging up these specific plants if they are not really all that unique/different from any of the other, more established or protected stands?

 

[Pyro]

Quote[/b] (srduggins @ May 31 2006,12:57)]but tend to agree with Pyro. It would be best to restore the habitat.

Actually, I was not really saying that it is best to restore the habitat, and personally I have no particular leaning in this case. If B28 wants to go for habitat restoration then that is her choice and if she does not then that too is her choice. I don't judge her either way. I was initially just offering an alternative to burning since that seemed totally out.

And after that I was just pointing out that habitat restoration is not the antithesis of conservation and that something that sounds destructive really is in actuallity conservation.

 

[SpyCspider]

Gotcha

I guess I didn't read your post thoroughly enough.  I just saw "killing trees to save S. alatas" due to previous human encroachment as simply another sign of human involvement.  So if human labor is going to be involved no matter what, one might as well just take the plants out and neither pitchers nor trees will have to do die because of each other being there.

That is a pretty interesting technique, however, "ringing." Learned something new everyday.

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

Easy fix, shovel, dig plants, give to park rangers, done deal. Nobody will "loose their job" over that.

 

[srduggins]

Here's another easy fix:

Everyone concentrates on the problems we're having in
this country lately. Illegal immigration, hurricane
recovery, wild animals attacking humans in Florida.
Not me. I concentrate on solutions to problems.
The result is a win-win-win situation:

+ Use the Illegals to dig a moat the length of the
Mexican border
+ Use the dirt to raise the levies in New Orleans
+ Put the Florida alligators in the moat.


Any other problems you would like for me to solve
today?

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

srduggins What an imaginative Idea!!!  I like that one!  Kills 3 birds with one stone!  You could then give the illegals citizenship AFTER the moat is finished for their hard work.

Nepenthes ak about the herb verse in the bible.  I am not a bible expert and will never claim such.  In fact that is the only verse I have memorized and I couldn't tell you the verse name or number, but I am aware that any person can find evidence in the bible to be for or against a certain thing regardless of what it is.  I don't want to get into a religious debate over this, I was just trying to make an example and did not want to start a war over it.  Granted I may like to indulge in a dance or two with Mary Jane, but the point is, I still think its a beautiful plant and if things were to go like the DEA wanted that plant too would be endangered.  As I have said before in other posts, if it were legal then I would grow the plant just for its beauty.  Thank goodness for the big enthusiasts that still grow the plant in mass numbers.  I don't think we have to worry about that plant getting endangered except in its natural habitat any time soon.

Kristi sorry for being so rude and not saying how grateful I am that you found your son and the fire was not worse than it was.  I got wrapped up in the save the Alata idea for the post.  I hope things go good with the restoration of your home, and everything smooths out with your church.





And to those who may have read to much into this post and others of mine.  Just because I am not religious does not mean I do not have a heart for other people.  I know nothing was said, but I had to make that statement because I feel some people may have been thinking it.

 

[schloaty]

Quote[/b] ] I agree with schloaty and like a good fight every now and again.

YEAH!! Hey B2*8, lemme come down there and knock some heads!

BWAAAA HAAAA HAAA HAA HAAAAA!! I'll have them grovelling at the alatas' roots! Begging to feed them drops of their own blood! Oh, the carnage!

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] (schloaty @ May 31 2006,10:43)]

Quote[/b] ] YEAH!!  Hey B2*8, lemme come down there and knock some heads!

BWAAAA HAAAA HAAA HAA HAAAAA!! I'll have them grovelling at the alatas' roots!  Begging to feed them drops of their own blood!  Oh, the carnage!

Better start sending resumes out!

..... and their coming to take me away aha oho hehe....

 

[Bugweed]

Dave! I am suprised at you! Carnage??! No carning today, Schloatmeister! Take a chill pill, one hour meditation, and beat them up later. I prefer the subtle. Would you care if I dug up a few wildflowers?? Definitely no lie. Go with verbal permission, and get them out. Restoration sounds like big trouble, so don't go there. Mostly, follow your own heart. That is really the key. One man sez, not a unique stand, so who cares? Well, without seeing them in full glory instead of sick, how would you even know if it were unique?? Get them out, beef them up, add them to the NASC gene pool, and the Millineum Seed Bank. They stay what they are with whatever genetics they had. Unique to anyone or not. The genes are all theirs. Stewardship. They are all different, just as we are.