What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The upcoming election

  • #81
Oh my word we are still dissing him for that slip up. LOL
smile_n_32.gif
 
  • #82
As usual, Capslock and I will disagree on most issues.  But I find myself somewhat agreeing with him on the Iraq issue.  I believe that we should have secured Afghanistan first, installed a multinational force to keep the peace there and then tried to verify that Saddam Hussiein actually had WMDs.  A few more months would not have made that much of a difference, except of course to the people he was terrorizing.  

Iran and Iraq fought a war that lasted eight years (1980/1988) and cost one million lives.  We actually backed Saddam in that one.  Perhaps the squabbling between the two countries could have worked to our benefit if we would have left him in power.  But then, if either one or both really had WMDs, it could easily gotten way out of hand and brought about a U.S./Russia/China confrontation.
I really feel that it is the responsibility of other Muslim Countries to help broker peace in the region.  But their fractured logic of religious hate seems to prevent this.  It would be in their best interest to have a peaceful Iraq and then we infidels would gladly leave.  

My list of high priority issues is:
-The war on terror
-Iraq
-Afghanistan
-Iran
-North Korea
They are really one and the same issue.

Here at home:
-Illegal immigration
-Dishonest politicians
-Big government
-Constitutional rights

The least of my worries…What the rest of the world thinks of us.
 
  • #83
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lauderdale @ Oct. 30 2006,2:46)]My list of high priority issues is:
-The war on terror
-Iraq
-Afghanistan
-Iran
-North Korea
They are really one and the same issue.

The least of my worries…What the rest of the world thinks of us.
The way the rest of the world looks at us is the one thing you SHOULD be conerned about when adressing these issues. The reason these are issues, especally when adressing terrorism, is because of the way the United States is viewed in the rest of the world. We are seen by most countries, especally arab countries, as evil occupiers of countries and the supporter of other countries (especally Isreal) that are evil occupiers in their eyes. In many minds we invaded Iraq and now refuse to leave. The solution to these problems is to improve the world image of the United States. We need to work more with the world community. We need to stop saying screw the world we will do what we want. As a country we often act like a spoiled rich kid who always gets what he wants and throws a huge temper tantrum if we do not.

I guess my point is our world image will directly effect how much of a problem the "war on terror" that we are "waging" will be in the long run.
 
  • #84
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Hey Guys, if there is a way to split the thread, I don't know what it is

Is there something like "manage thread" or "edit thread"? I vaguely seem to recall it being a possible selection from a button at the bottom of the thread window.
 
  • #85
What does that mean?
 
  • #86
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We are seen by most countries, especally arab countries, as evil occupiers of countries and the supporter of other countries (especally Isreal) that are evil occupiers in their eyes.  In many minds we invaded Iraq and now refuse to leave.  The solution to these problems is to improve the world image of the United States.
Would that have prevented 9/11?  What did we do prior to invading Afghanistan and Iraq that got the Arab world so PO'd at us?  Why is there so much hate in that part of the world?  Seperation of church and state would certainly improve the situation.

I suspect that many nations are just plain jealous of our standard of living.  Well, we worked hard to achieve that and maybe if they quit hating each other and tried working together they might achieve something other than killing each other.  There is certainly enough oil wealth in those nations to give everyone there a better standard of living.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We need someone who will make us proud to be Americans again, because for a lot of us, these are not the good ol' days.
Well said Caps but then things are going pretty well for most of us.  I have faith in our Republic.
 
  • #87
Well, we did have info on the terrorist plans and NOTHING WAS DONE!

It's like in highschool, the poor kids will hate the rich kids. America is the richest kid.
 
  • #88
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Would that have prevented 9/11? What did we do prior to invading Afghanistan and Iraq that got the Arab world so PO'd at us?

Jeez, that's the whole basis of this. Our involvement over there has been going on for a long, long time. The whole Islamic Revolution stemmed from our support of an evil (secular) dictator in Iran, the Shah. Our military presense in Saudi Arabia has angered fundamentalists for a long time. And we back the Taliban (against Russia), then hate them. We back Saddam (against Iran) then invade and overthrow him. Heck the entirety of Iraq is an artificial conglomeration of three regions that were subject to Brittish rule until after WWII. (Brittain invaded Iraq in 1941 to secure oil rights lest they fall into Nazi hands.)

But maybe the biggest reason they hate us over there is our unconditional support if Israel. Yes, most of that is religious intolerance, but Israel was just sort of shoved among them without a whole lot of input from the neighbors there. So you have an increasingly strident religious rule in the region, in part due to our imperialistic and capitalistic interference, and partly due to the poverty and lack of education they suffer with.

I can say with a good deal of confidence that they do not hate us for our freedom or standard of living. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were pretty well off. Most were Saudi, aligned with OBL in their criticism of US military presence in their most holy lands in Saudi Arabia. That's where the 9/11 attacks came from. Now, they hate us because we invaded and occupy Iraq for no good reason, killing as many as 600,000 people by some counts. This confirmed their worst fears about American intentions in the region. Honestly, I don't think many were too upset that we toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan (now THEY are the "no fun of any kind" party.)

Capslock
 
  • #89
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Jeez, that's the whole basis of this. Our involvement over there has been going on for a long, long time.
I understand that and you are correct. I believe we should have just let the whole Middle East “have at it” from day one and waited until the dust cleared.

We backed the Taliban only because Russia was the big bad boogey man at the time and after their defeat, the Taliban seized power and morphed into a horribly repressive regime that formed an alliance with Bin Laden.  I believe we should have stayed out of it and let them duke it out.  If Russia had succeeded, what would they have gained?  I mean, it not as if Afghanistan is a valuable chunk of property.  That said, we had to try to avenge 9/11.

The British put him in power but we were wrong in backing Reza, the Shah of Iran.  However, he did rule a country that had huge oil reserves.  I guess all of our presidents since 1941 thought that he was better than the alternative that we have now.

We backed Saddam in his invasion of Iran because he was the lesser of two evils and even that was a mistake.  The only reason we invaded Iraq the first time was because of their invasion of Kuwait.

As I mentioned in my previous post, if we had left Saddam in power, he and Iraq might still be trying to knock each other off.  The possibility of Russia and China getting involved was simply too great of a risk to take.

I do think the estimate of us causing 600,000 deaths since we invaded Iraq is way off base.
 
  • #90
I don't really like the government of isreal ever since they started attacking lebanon relentlessly. Very unproportionate of them (is that a word? lol)
 
  • #91
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Capslock @ Oct. 31 2006,6:55)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Would that have prevented 9/11? What did we do prior to invading Afghanistan and Iraq that got the Arab world so PO'd at us?

Jeez, that's the whole basis of this. Our involvement over there has been going on for a long, long time. The whole Islamic Revolution stemmed from our support of an evil (secular) dictator in Iran, the Shah. Our military presense in Saudi Arabia has angered fundamentalists for a long time. And we back the Taliban (against Russia), then hate them. We back Saddam (against Iran) then invade and overthrow him. Heck the entirety of Iraq is an artificial conglomeration of three regions that were subject to Brittish rule until after WWII. (Brittain invaded Iraq in 1941 to secure oil rights lest they fall into Nazi hands.)

But maybe the biggest reason they hate us over there is our unconditional support if Israel. Yes, most of that is religious intolerance, but Israel was just sort of shoved among them without a whole lot of input from the neighbors there. So you have an increasingly strident religious rule in the region, in part due to our imperialistic and capitalistic interference, and partly due to the poverty and lack of education they suffer with.

I can say with a good deal of confidence that they do not hate us for our freedom or standard of living. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were pretty well off. Most were Saudi, aligned with OBL in their criticism of US military presence in their most holy lands in Saudi Arabia. That's where the 9/11 attacks came from. Now, they hate us because we invaded and occupy Iraq for no good reason, killing as many as 600,000 people by some counts. This confirmed their worst fears about American intentions in the region. Honestly, I don't think many were too upset that we toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan (now THEY are the "no fun of any kind" party.)

Capslock
Very well said Capslock.

Especally the part about our unconditional support of Isreal. Though its not based on religious intolerance. Most Muslims are very tollerant of both Jews and Christians, that is until we start droping bombs on their heads. Look into the history of how Isreal treats its Arab Muslim neighbors and you will see why the United States is hated in the Middle East. Massacres of hundreds of civilians by Isreali Military forces and what happens, Isreal pretends like it never happened and next time they illeally invade another country they make sure to destroy the TV stations and the UN obersvation post that is meant to protect against another massacre. There is also the occupation of Palestine, which includes imprisonment of palestinians who have commited no crime but wanting an independent Palestine, destroying palestinian villages to build Jewish only settlements, the over use of force to kill any Palestinian that does something Isreal doesnt approve of, destruction of Palestinian orchards, and the list goes on and on. The reason I know this makes us unpopular in the Middle East is because I have talked to several people (mostly in Jordan though a few in Syria) who have said their biggest problem with the United States is our unconditional support of Isreal. Do you have any Idea how many UN resoultions have been passed against Isreal, I cant remember the exact number but its well over 60 and Isreal has more UN resoultions passed against it than any other nation on earth. This is why many Arab Muslims do not like the United States.

Also as a side note please everyone stop treating Arab Musilms, Muslims, and Arabs as interchangable. Also please do not treat them as one homogenous group with a shared set of values and beliefs, as many, infact every Muslim (even the 3 Iraqis I met who had fled their home country) I have ever talked to found what happened on 9/11 an outrage and completely unacceptable. The people who commited the attacks of 9/11 were extremists and their beliefs are not held by the majority of Muslims. The presence of US troops in Saudia Arabia however is a sore point for many Muslims as this is their holy land.

Also Arghanistan is not populated by Arabs, they from the Indian subcontinent and are ethnically differnt from arabs.
 
  • #92
Which is why we need a more secular government! The US is always sticking with isreal because it's "God's chosen land".

"Also as a side note please everyone stop treating Arab Musilms, Muslims, and Arabs as interchangable. Also please do not treat them as one homogenous group with a shared set of values and beliefs, as many, infact every Muslim (even the 3 Iraqis I met who had fled their home country) I have ever talked to found what happened on 9/11 an outrage and completely unacceptable. "

Were we? I don't know any Muslims as I live in the middle of nowhere, but I think it would be cool to. Middle eastern men are HOT!
smile_s_32.gif
 
  • #93
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ Oct. 31 2006,10:36)]Which is why we need a more secular government! The US is always sticking with isreal because it's "God's chosen land".

"Also as a side note please everyone stop treating Arab Musilms, Muslims, and Arabs as interchangable. Also please do not treat them as one homogenous group with a shared set of values and beliefs, as many, infact every Muslim (even the 3 Iraqis I met who had fled their home country) I have ever talked to found what happened on 9/11 an outrage and completely unacceptable. "

Were we? I don't know any Muslims as I live in the middle of nowhere, but I think it would be cool to. Middle eastern men are HOT!
smile_s_32.gif
When I said that I was refering to most people in general. If there is one thing I got sick of hearing when I told people that I was going/have been to the Middle East it was "why, THEY attacked us" as in all muslims and all arabs were the same, its one of my only little pet peeves and i have seen arab Muslims refered to as THEY, which implies a one minded homogenous group.

Also although i was not checking out the men, Arab women are extremly beutiful, its too bad they wouldnt talk to me.
 
  • #94
when I was a kid I thought arab women were like Jasmin in Aladdin, they wore sports bras and showed their stomachs. Boy was I wrong!
 
  • #95
Republicans have broken their Contract With America (remember that?).  The Contract With America said that Republicans would stand for fiscal conservatism.  However, under their leadership, our country now has record deficits.  The Contract said that Republicans would stand for national security.  However, the threat of terrorism has actually increased under their watch, according to a recent report by US intelligence agencies.  The Contract said that Republicans would stand for moral leadership.  However, Republicans put a higher priority on retaining political power in the US House when they ignored reports of a fellow Republican who had made sexual advances toward pages.  Since the Republicans have broken their Contract With America, it is time for America to break with the Republican Party.
 
  • #96
I have a few questions.

-Was there anything that we, the British, Spain or Italy did to the Muslims that would justify the murder of thousands of people Caps?
-So, John Kerry was duped into voting for the invasion before he voted against it?
-John Kerry said that a person who doesn't get a good education gets stuck in Iraq. Is it time for him to apologize to our soldiers?


-Didn't Hamas start lobbing rockets into Israel before Israel invaded Lebanon ktulu?
-Does Israel not have the right to exist?

-How is the economy doing Tropics?
-What are the unemployment figures?
-Wasn't there some Democrat who made sexual advances toward an intern and a campaign worker?
 
  • #97
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-Was there anything that we, the British, Spain or Italy did to the Muslims that would justify the murder of thousands of people Caps?

Not to me, no. Not prior to 9/11, and especially not by Bin Laden. However, there is nothing that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have done to deserve dying either. I don't think we're blameless in the world, as people have legitimate grievances, but flying planes into buildings full of innocents is just wrong. And terrorists who are motivated by a desire to theocratize the world have no sympathy from me.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So, John Kerry was duped into voting for the invasion before he voted against it?

Yep. I still don't know where he stands on it, and thought his explanations at the time were weak. However, we were all deliberately fed false information by the President. Yet I had a good sense he was lying at the time - why didn't Kerry?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-John Kerry said that a person who doesn't get a good education gets stuck in Iraq. Is it time for him to apologize to our soldiers?
No, that's just a desperate, last-minute campaign tactic. Kerry botched a joke, but unlike the President, Kerry didn't duck out of his military duty. He's a decorated combat veteran, and I believe has more respect for the soldiers than Bush. There's something wrong with an administration of chickenhawks lecturing someone like Kerry about the military. Has Bush apologized for going AWOL on his National Guard unit? Isn't that just a tad more substantial than an isolated quip made by a combat veteran at an appearance? There's a lot of apologizing for a lot of things that has to happen before I worry about John Kerry. With the polls swinging the Democrats way, this is just another desperate, manufactured issue aimed at somehow turning the tide in the last days of the election. But it's just John Kerry, who isn't running for anything, and it's not going to work.

Or maybe it will. Who knows? I've been wrong a lot of times about a lot of things.

Capslock
 
  • #98
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also although i was not checking out the men, Arab women are extremly beutiful, its too bad they wouldnt talk to me.

Ha! I could substitute ANY race in for Arab, and the same would apply! None of them would talk to me....until I duped my wife into marying me.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-Was there anything that we, the British, Spain or Italy did to the Muslims that would justify the murder of thousands of people Caps?
No, there certainly wasn't. This, however, does NOT mean that people greivances against us aren't justified. I'm not sure you were trying to imply that, but if you were, it's a straw man.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-So, John Kerry was duped into voting for the invasion before he voted against it?

You know, I heard something really good about this (not Kerry, but people in general who voted for then against the war) on Real Time with Bill Maher - I can't remember who said it, but it was something along the lines that many people voted for the war even though they didn't really want to because they were afraid of committing politcal suicide. That doesn't justify it, but it's interesting, at least.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]-John Kerry said that a person who doesn't get a good education gets stuck in Iraq. Is it time for him to apologize to our soldiers?

And? I can't tell you how many times I've said things that were funny to me, only to find out my audience wasn't too amused. So what? That somehow means Bush is doing a better job? That man can't even speak English. for heaven's sake!

I can't really comment on the rest because I would be speaking in ignorance, so I'll let others tackle those.
 
  • #99
Well, it seems I am in disagreance with the Kerry statement. It sure did not sound like a patched attempt at a joke. I have always been told that it is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck you can be prety sure it is a duck. Yet that really is not the issue at hand. Even had he been trying to put on a so called "joke", it was still offencive and he should appolagize. JUst because it is a mistake doesn;t mean he should get off scott free. There is alot of truth said in jest.
 
  • #100
He has indeed now apologized. But I think it's dishonest to say that this reveals that he thinks the military is stupid, and I think some of the "outrage" is manufactured to cover for real election issues. Can you believe we're days away from an important election, and we've been diverted to talking about a single sentence uttered in jest by someone who isn't running for anything? That can only happen as the result of a carefully managed campaign strategy. We should reject the temptation and focus on the actual election issues.

Casplock
 
Back
Top