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Further proof of Evolution? 4-finned dolphin....
- Thread starter Clint
- Start date
Clint
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If God is everywhere, he can not be absent, and if evil is the absence of god, then god must have created his own absence (evil). either way, I really don't care that much. Just another paradox.
"You can't evolve nothing into something"
The first "living" things came from amino acids that happened to get the right configuration. You can create something from "nothing". Scientist have tried to do it, but haven't so far. That does not mean they won't one day, though. There are many things scientist hypothesize they can do but can't/haven't yet.
"How about the great flood?"
So you are telling me that god let everyone besides Noah and his family die because they were "sinful"? What kind of god does that? Are you telling me that you honestly believe that Noah rounded up two of EVERY animal of the opposite sex, considering a huge chunk of the world was unknown at that time. Lets forget the birds-they can fly. Lets forget the fish, they can swim. Lets forget the bugs, let em drown. You are saying that he collected 2 of EVERY reptile, mammal, and amphibian and fit them on a boat? Do you realize this is physically impossible? And don't say "well god has powers, he can do what he wants!" Because that pretty much the Christian playbook and has no weight.
Was there a flood? probably. did it last 60 days and 60 nights? More like 6. Did it cover the earth? No. It covered a large portion of iraq and perhaps turkey. Was there a giant cruz ship full of animals? No. There was a sumerian king who built a barge. Oh yeah, didn't God only give him seven days notice?
"How about Jesus Christ?"
What about him? We have people who claim to be prophets today. We have people who claim to perform miracles, and people who say those miracles really happened. David Blaine and Chris angel have performed magic tricks that are considerably more realistic and believable that turning water into wine. Chris Angel himself performed a trick where he walked on water with people swimming around and under him at a major Las Vegas hotel.
"You can't evolve nothing into something"
The first "living" things came from amino acids that happened to get the right configuration. You can create something from "nothing". Scientist have tried to do it, but haven't so far. That does not mean they won't one day, though. There are many things scientist hypothesize they can do but can't/haven't yet.
"How about the great flood?"
So you are telling me that god let everyone besides Noah and his family die because they were "sinful"? What kind of god does that? Are you telling me that you honestly believe that Noah rounded up two of EVERY animal of the opposite sex, considering a huge chunk of the world was unknown at that time. Lets forget the birds-they can fly. Lets forget the fish, they can swim. Lets forget the bugs, let em drown. You are saying that he collected 2 of EVERY reptile, mammal, and amphibian and fit them on a boat? Do you realize this is physically impossible? And don't say "well god has powers, he can do what he wants!" Because that pretty much the Christian playbook and has no weight.
Was there a flood? probably. did it last 60 days and 60 nights? More like 6. Did it cover the earth? No. It covered a large portion of iraq and perhaps turkey. Was there a giant cruz ship full of animals? No. There was a sumerian king who built a barge. Oh yeah, didn't God only give him seven days notice?
"How about Jesus Christ?"
What about him? We have people who claim to be prophets today. We have people who claim to perform miracles, and people who say those miracles really happened. David Blaine and Chris angel have performed magic tricks that are considerably more realistic and believable that turning water into wine. Chris Angel himself performed a trick where he walked on water with people swimming around and under him at a major Las Vegas hotel.
[b said:
Awww hell no! You did not just go there.
All linux distributions were not created equal. lol HOWEVER, I'm a bit more inclined to Linux because there seem to be less bozos trying to convince me I'm going to burn in hellfire for all of eternity because I use Fedora.
The problem is simply that no matter what you do, someone will always think you're going down the wrong path. All you can do is try to live your life the best you can, and try not to get killed by a fanatic in the meantime.
[b said:
Just a quick interjection: One of the ways that people get mixed up and confused is when they consider evolution to be a linear thing. There is no "right conformation." I've heard people arguing, asking "how can evolution be true when things are so complex?!" The reason is that evolution does not have a GOAL. If I gave you an seven trillion piece puzzle, it would be hard to construct. But if I gave you a limitless number of pieces with which you could join the pieces together in any way you want, then the possibilities are infinite.
Evolution didn't need to end up making things the way that they are. There are virtually infinite and limitless other possibilities. It would be difficult to construct what we have today from a bottom up type of way, but if your "goal" is merely to construct something, then you can't really lose.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
[b said:
Oh yes. I was thinking about adding in a clarification, but I suppose a 2nd post will do:
I wasn't picking on you or your choice of words. It merely reminded me of something. You words were fine and I wasn't trying to criticize you. Not to mention that in a historical sense, to get to where we are now there are "right configurations."
That's all. No criticism intended.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
I ended up glancing through that old thread I mentioned last night out of curiosity. It went in the flood direction too. It's weird how often that becomes the next segway in evolution discussions.
I feel like asking the usual questions about the flood (the sorts of fundamental questions one must have answered for oneself to even begin to believe such a thing), but I know they're just going to get skipped over. I think I'll just leave it alone this time... the massive blind spot required to believe that story literally is just too formidable.
I feel like asking the usual questions about the flood (the sorts of fundamental questions one must have answered for oneself to even begin to believe such a thing), but I know they're just going to get skipped over. I think I'll just leave it alone this time... the massive blind spot required to believe that story literally is just too formidable.
"If God is everywhere, he can not be absent, and if evil is the absence of god, then god must have created his own absence (evil). either way, I really don't care that much. Just another paradox."
Even though there is good evidence for God's existence (in my bias), it's ultimately an issue of faith.
(Hebrews 11:1,6). We must trust that the God who cannot lie, who chose to reveal himself to us, accurately portrayed himself as always existing -- unchangeable.
Even though there is good evidence for God's existence (in my bias), it's ultimately an issue of faith.
(Hebrews 11:1,6). We must trust that the God who cannot lie, who chose to reveal himself to us, accurately portrayed himself as always existing -- unchangeable.
Start with Scriptures to get a picture of where the water came from to begin with...
Genesis 7:11-12
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. (12) And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (NIV)
First of all, note that the bulk of the water that covered the earth came from the "springs of the deep". Simulations have shown that 40 days (and nights) of rain could not have come close to covering the mountains.
Genesis 8:1-3
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. (2) Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. (3) The water receded steadily from the earth... (NIV)
Secondly, the first mention of wind in the Bible is when God sent it to help dry up the land. Our global wind patterns are a major factor in the circulation of water clouds surrounding the earth AND in maintaining the polar ice caps... which were most likely rapidly created following the flood to dry the earth. Strong winds would have supported this process. If the polar ice caps alone melted, it would flood much of the earth today. For perspective: Excluding alpine, or mountain glaciers, some of which are massive (like the Hubbard Glacier of Alaska, one of the longest in the world), consider that almost all of Greenland is covered by a glacier. It is over 700,000 sq. miles (1.8 million sq. km) in area and more than 9000 ft at it's maximum thickness. A similar type glacier covers almost the whole Antarctic continent. It covers an area of about 5 million sq miles (13 million sq. km). One tested area of West Antarctica was found to have a depth of more than 9480 ft (3000m) of ice and snow. Antarctica contains approximately 90% of the world's fresh water, which would have been deposited there by precipitation (rapidly following the flood)... contrast that to the size and depth of large fresh water bodies like the great lakes (they together with all other fresh water lakes, streams and clouds are the remaining 10%)!
Many creation scientists believe that the ice age followed the flood, with glacial coverage over a much greater area. Subsequent glacial run off helped to define and redefine numerous fresh water bodies. It would have taken a number of years for the climates to stabilize after the dramatic events of the flood and subsequent drying. This also accounts for dry lake beds (found all over the world), that would have formed immediately following but were unsustainable from subsequent precipitation, resulting in their eventual evaporation. Glacial melting also would account for a great deal of the post flood erosion in some areas. As for where this glacial water would end-up, there is evidence that ocean levels have been in the ancient past up to 400 feet lower than the present (as shown by underwater features like shelves, terraces, and submerged canyons).
Psalms 104:6-9
You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. (7) But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; (8) they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. (9) You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth. (NIV)
Thirdly, the bulk of water on the earth today is in the "valleys" of the oceans. The major changes that took place in the earth's crust during the flood and the breaking up of the springs of the great deep included volcanic action and tectonic movement. This movement would have continued during the drying up of the earth. The cracked and shifted layers of large, multilayered, rock strata (which were deposited during the flood) testify to the type of upheaval that took place. Literally the the valleys God assigned for the waters (the oceans) got wider and deeper and the mountains got taller... becoming "a boundary they cannot cross."
http://www.liontracks.org/
Genesis 7:11-12
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month-- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. (12) And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (NIV)
First of all, note that the bulk of the water that covered the earth came from the "springs of the deep". Simulations have shown that 40 days (and nights) of rain could not have come close to covering the mountains.
Genesis 8:1-3
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. (2) Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. (3) The water receded steadily from the earth... (NIV)
Secondly, the first mention of wind in the Bible is when God sent it to help dry up the land. Our global wind patterns are a major factor in the circulation of water clouds surrounding the earth AND in maintaining the polar ice caps... which were most likely rapidly created following the flood to dry the earth. Strong winds would have supported this process. If the polar ice caps alone melted, it would flood much of the earth today. For perspective: Excluding alpine, or mountain glaciers, some of which are massive (like the Hubbard Glacier of Alaska, one of the longest in the world), consider that almost all of Greenland is covered by a glacier. It is over 700,000 sq. miles (1.8 million sq. km) in area and more than 9000 ft at it's maximum thickness. A similar type glacier covers almost the whole Antarctic continent. It covers an area of about 5 million sq miles (13 million sq. km). One tested area of West Antarctica was found to have a depth of more than 9480 ft (3000m) of ice and snow. Antarctica contains approximately 90% of the world's fresh water, which would have been deposited there by precipitation (rapidly following the flood)... contrast that to the size and depth of large fresh water bodies like the great lakes (they together with all other fresh water lakes, streams and clouds are the remaining 10%)!
Many creation scientists believe that the ice age followed the flood, with glacial coverage over a much greater area. Subsequent glacial run off helped to define and redefine numerous fresh water bodies. It would have taken a number of years for the climates to stabilize after the dramatic events of the flood and subsequent drying. This also accounts for dry lake beds (found all over the world), that would have formed immediately following but were unsustainable from subsequent precipitation, resulting in their eventual evaporation. Glacial melting also would account for a great deal of the post flood erosion in some areas. As for where this glacial water would end-up, there is evidence that ocean levels have been in the ancient past up to 400 feet lower than the present (as shown by underwater features like shelves, terraces, and submerged canyons).
Psalms 104:6-9
You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. (7) But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight; (8) they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. (9) You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth. (NIV)
Thirdly, the bulk of water on the earth today is in the "valleys" of the oceans. The major changes that took place in the earth's crust during the flood and the breaking up of the springs of the great deep included volcanic action and tectonic movement. This movement would have continued during the drying up of the earth. The cracked and shifted layers of large, multilayered, rock strata (which were deposited during the flood) testify to the type of upheaval that took place. Literally the the valleys God assigned for the waters (the oceans) got wider and deeper and the mountains got taller... becoming "a boundary they cannot cross."
http://www.liontracks.org/
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
When we are children we don't have a concept that our parents lie. They tell us we came from a stork and we believe it. They tell us about the tooth fairy, easter bunny, santa clause, etc, and we believe them because they said it's true and we don't ask questions. When we grow up, we think for ourselves.
Man created God. Those of us who have killed god are posthuman. We are our own gods.
Before the crazies come out of the woodwork and say i'm a cult leader or have deulsions of grandeur, that's a metaphore, folks.
Man created God. Those of us who have killed god are posthuman. We are our own gods.
Before the crazies come out of the woodwork and say i'm a cult leader or have deulsions of grandeur, that's a metaphore, folks.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
You have been open minded, and I considered it long ago. It is physically impossible.
Here is a very interesting transcript of an interview of a man who wrote a book about it.
Ark Debate
the auctual transcript is a little bit down, but not far.
Here is a very interesting transcript of an interview of a man who wrote a book about it.
Ark Debate
the auctual transcript is a little bit down, but not far.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Edit: I realize most of you won't read the whole thing, but atleast read this except.
http://www.atheists.org/evolution/morrisdebate.html
Copyright © 2006 American Atheists, Inc. All rights reserved.
Wolfsie: Let's talk about the big animals. We've got to take a
break here ...I want to know what was on this boat, how many animals were on the boat, and let's get into the big picture here, that's people understand...We'll be right back.
[commercial]
Wolfsie: Back on AM Indiana, talking about Noah's Ark. Frank, let me ask you very specifically, let's get from the very tiny things to the big things. What about the story, the size of the ark? And what Noah would have had to put on the ark? What troubles you? And then Professor Morris can respond.
Zindler: Not only is there the problem of how do you get all of the species of land animals into the ark, the primitive people who created the flood myth in the first place, in the fourth millennium B.C. or whenever, they didn't realize that plants were living things, and they didn't realize the implications of Noah not taking fishes and marine organisms into the ark. If we limit ourselves to just the water that is known on the planet, and the volume of sedimentary strata that we know of, and if as the creationists claim, all these sedimentary strata were deposited during that one year, the ocean at that time would have been actually two parts water to one part mud! [29] Now, if that were the case, with a world-destroying flood, how would the whales have stayed alive? They could not have been swimming... through, straining out plankton and so on, to feed. Delicate corals die if there is just the tiniest bit of silt in the water, or change in water temperature, and so forth. So Noah would have to have had enormous numbers of aquaria in the ark to keep the whales going, to keep the marine fishes from dying because of the dilution of the salt water with fresh water, to keep the fresh water organisms alive because of the salt coming in, and all these noxious things that the volcanos are throwing out... Incidentally, if all the volcanic lava beds that we see interspersed between these sedimentary rocks were laid down during one year, the amount of heat released from that lava would have heated the water of the ocean to several thousand degrees centigrade! And so Noah's ark would have had to have been air-conditioned! [30]
Wolfsie: And how many animals on the boat? How many species?
Zindler: There are at least a million species of organisms known, and the creationists say, well we wouldn't have to have all the species. We would have maybe just a general representative of them. But even so, with the need for the aquaria, a boat simply the size of an ocean liner would be inadequate. [31]
Wolfsie: Okay...
Morris: Frank, you are critiquing the biblical account here. You're saying that Noah...[three-second flaw in videotape of debate] Here's the Bible, [holds up a Bible] Now...
Zindler: A very ignorant book, by the way...
Morris: Oh my!
Zindler: Very unscientific...
Morris: You are critiquing this account...Will you tell me where it says Noah had to take the fish on board?
Zindler: I'm saying it was an error because they didn't know he had to take the fish on board...
Morris: What you're saying is the biblical account is wrong.
Zindler: Yes!
Morris: Because there's not room on board for all the fish and whales and...
Zindler: No-no-no! It was wrong because they didn't know...
Morris: Nowhere is it claimed that they had to be on board.
Zindler: That's why it's wrong...You see, for it to be a plausible argument, they would have had to say, "and he had to take the fish on board, and the corals on board..."
Morris: See what this is? Let me show you what this is. This is Atheistic logic here...
Wolfsie: Well he doesn't deny that!
Morris: No, he doesn't...He's Madalyn Murray's right-hand man!
Zindler: I was showing that the Bible is pre-scientific, you see...
Morris: An Atheist assumes a Very arrogant position, in my mind, that there is no god. Now, every philosopher knows that there is no such thing as an absolute negative. [32] He's saying there is no god...
Zindler: You have to prove there is one; I don't have to disprove it
Morris: Okay, but you're making...
Zindler: The onus of proof is on you who allege... [33]
Morris: But to say that there is no god...that's illogical!
Zindler: On the contrary! It is extraordinarily illogical to say there is a god who couldn't tell the people who wrote the Bible that they had to take fishes and corals in the ark!
Morris: Now your logic is going the same direction...You're saying that I know, for a fact, that no whales could have survived outside the ark...
Zindler: I would hope you would know that!
Morris: Well, you're making the statement that you know this knowledge, that no whales could have survived outside the ark—Now, I think that's an illogical statement. The flood is not as you characterize it. Let me tell you some things about water...
Zindler: It destroyed the world, supposedly...
Morris: You betcha! By the billions fish, clams, whales, died in the flood, or maybe not billions of whales, by the billions...
Zindler: That's another thing. There are too many fossils for one world! If you were to...
Wolfsie: Hey, Frank, now hold it! You know...
Zindler: You can't have all the known fossils living at one time!
Wolfsie: ...I was just about to understand something, and you're changing on me! Now wait a second...
Zindler: You see, you can't have all the known fossils living at one time... [34]
Wolfsie: I was just on the verge of getting something here... [To Morris] You're claiming that the fish didn't have to go on the ark because the fish just would have survived, because they live in water anyway...
Morris: The Bible is very explicit about what goes on the ark. It says that—it says the land animals. It says all those in whose nostrils is the breath of life, of everything that lives on the dry land. So many animals... that's excluding whales...
Zindler: That's right! [35]
Morris: ...although they breathe air, but they don't live on land. It talks about cattle and domesticated animals. It talks about creeping things, the small animals...and the beasts of the field, which are the large animals. And it says very explicitly that those had to be on board the ark...and the birds. Now, he says millions of species. If you add up that number of species, you know, the maximum number even that anyone would even propose would be on board the ark would be, I mean the outside maximum, the worst-case scenario, we're talking maybe fifty thousand animals... [36] And the ark is certainly big enough to carry that number of animals for the length of time that they had to be...
Zindler: Okay, you'd think that there...
Morris: Now what he's saying is—he's adding to the story. He's saying that the story makes no sense unless you put the fish onboard. I think that's an illogical addition to it...
Zindler: You've apparently never raised tropical fish, John....you would know how difficult it is to keep fish alive!
Morris: Let me tell you something about water. There are many, many studies where waters of different temperature, of different salinities, of different chemistries, segregate. And during the flood there would have been zones of fresh water, of salt water... there is... again, billions of sea creatures died in Noah's flood. But all the Bible, the biblical account, requires is that two of each of these created kinds would have survived somewhere in a pocket...
Zindler: Somewhere close enough together that they could get back together after the flood! And that stratification would have been impossible, John, because of all the volcanic activity you talk about going on. [37] This would be churning stuff up all the time [hubub]...
Wolfsie: Were there dinosaurs on the ark? Were there dinosaurs on this ark?
Morris: The flood account does not predict...
Wolfsie: Oh! I've got to take a break... What I'm trying to establish...
Zindler: Of course there would have been dinosaurs on the ark!
Wolfsie: I want to understand, because I want to talk about how Noah's flood occurred... and then I think a fair question is, if there were dinosaurs on this ark, how is that in keeping with how we know that man and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time. And if there weren't dinosaurs, where did they come from, since all the species were wiped out? That seems like a fair question. I'll try to remember how I asked that in just a moment, stay tuned...
Edit: agnostic, atheist, christian, whatever. The link I posted is a very good read and entertaining no matter what you are. I highly reccomend sitting down with a nice cup of coffe and having a nice read.
http://www.atheists.org/evolution/morrisdebate.html
Copyright © 2006 American Atheists, Inc. All rights reserved.
Wolfsie: Let's talk about the big animals. We've got to take a
break here ...I want to know what was on this boat, how many animals were on the boat, and let's get into the big picture here, that's people understand...We'll be right back.
[commercial]
Wolfsie: Back on AM Indiana, talking about Noah's Ark. Frank, let me ask you very specifically, let's get from the very tiny things to the big things. What about the story, the size of the ark? And what Noah would have had to put on the ark? What troubles you? And then Professor Morris can respond.
Zindler: Not only is there the problem of how do you get all of the species of land animals into the ark, the primitive people who created the flood myth in the first place, in the fourth millennium B.C. or whenever, they didn't realize that plants were living things, and they didn't realize the implications of Noah not taking fishes and marine organisms into the ark. If we limit ourselves to just the water that is known on the planet, and the volume of sedimentary strata that we know of, and if as the creationists claim, all these sedimentary strata were deposited during that one year, the ocean at that time would have been actually two parts water to one part mud! [29] Now, if that were the case, with a world-destroying flood, how would the whales have stayed alive? They could not have been swimming... through, straining out plankton and so on, to feed. Delicate corals die if there is just the tiniest bit of silt in the water, or change in water temperature, and so forth. So Noah would have to have had enormous numbers of aquaria in the ark to keep the whales going, to keep the marine fishes from dying because of the dilution of the salt water with fresh water, to keep the fresh water organisms alive because of the salt coming in, and all these noxious things that the volcanos are throwing out... Incidentally, if all the volcanic lava beds that we see interspersed between these sedimentary rocks were laid down during one year, the amount of heat released from that lava would have heated the water of the ocean to several thousand degrees centigrade! And so Noah's ark would have had to have been air-conditioned! [30]
Wolfsie: And how many animals on the boat? How many species?
Zindler: There are at least a million species of organisms known, and the creationists say, well we wouldn't have to have all the species. We would have maybe just a general representative of them. But even so, with the need for the aquaria, a boat simply the size of an ocean liner would be inadequate. [31]
Wolfsie: Okay...
Morris: Frank, you are critiquing the biblical account here. You're saying that Noah...[three-second flaw in videotape of debate] Here's the Bible, [holds up a Bible] Now...
Zindler: A very ignorant book, by the way...
Morris: Oh my!
Zindler: Very unscientific...
Morris: You are critiquing this account...Will you tell me where it says Noah had to take the fish on board?
Zindler: I'm saying it was an error because they didn't know he had to take the fish on board...
Morris: What you're saying is the biblical account is wrong.
Zindler: Yes!
Morris: Because there's not room on board for all the fish and whales and...
Zindler: No-no-no! It was wrong because they didn't know...
Morris: Nowhere is it claimed that they had to be on board.
Zindler: That's why it's wrong...You see, for it to be a plausible argument, they would have had to say, "and he had to take the fish on board, and the corals on board..."
Morris: See what this is? Let me show you what this is. This is Atheistic logic here...
Wolfsie: Well he doesn't deny that!
Morris: No, he doesn't...He's Madalyn Murray's right-hand man!
Zindler: I was showing that the Bible is pre-scientific, you see...
Morris: An Atheist assumes a Very arrogant position, in my mind, that there is no god. Now, every philosopher knows that there is no such thing as an absolute negative. [32] He's saying there is no god...
Zindler: You have to prove there is one; I don't have to disprove it
Morris: Okay, but you're making...
Zindler: The onus of proof is on you who allege... [33]
Morris: But to say that there is no god...that's illogical!
Zindler: On the contrary! It is extraordinarily illogical to say there is a god who couldn't tell the people who wrote the Bible that they had to take fishes and corals in the ark!
Morris: Now your logic is going the same direction...You're saying that I know, for a fact, that no whales could have survived outside the ark...
Zindler: I would hope you would know that!
Morris: Well, you're making the statement that you know this knowledge, that no whales could have survived outside the ark—Now, I think that's an illogical statement. The flood is not as you characterize it. Let me tell you some things about water...
Zindler: It destroyed the world, supposedly...
Morris: You betcha! By the billions fish, clams, whales, died in the flood, or maybe not billions of whales, by the billions...
Zindler: That's another thing. There are too many fossils for one world! If you were to...
Wolfsie: Hey, Frank, now hold it! You know...
Zindler: You can't have all the known fossils living at one time!
Wolfsie: ...I was just about to understand something, and you're changing on me! Now wait a second...
Zindler: You see, you can't have all the known fossils living at one time... [34]
Wolfsie: I was just on the verge of getting something here... [To Morris] You're claiming that the fish didn't have to go on the ark because the fish just would have survived, because they live in water anyway...
Morris: The Bible is very explicit about what goes on the ark. It says that—it says the land animals. It says all those in whose nostrils is the breath of life, of everything that lives on the dry land. So many animals... that's excluding whales...
Zindler: That's right! [35]
Morris: ...although they breathe air, but they don't live on land. It talks about cattle and domesticated animals. It talks about creeping things, the small animals...and the beasts of the field, which are the large animals. And it says very explicitly that those had to be on board the ark...and the birds. Now, he says millions of species. If you add up that number of species, you know, the maximum number even that anyone would even propose would be on board the ark would be, I mean the outside maximum, the worst-case scenario, we're talking maybe fifty thousand animals... [36] And the ark is certainly big enough to carry that number of animals for the length of time that they had to be...
Zindler: Okay, you'd think that there...
Morris: Now what he's saying is—he's adding to the story. He's saying that the story makes no sense unless you put the fish onboard. I think that's an illogical addition to it...
Zindler: You've apparently never raised tropical fish, John....you would know how difficult it is to keep fish alive!
Morris: Let me tell you something about water. There are many, many studies where waters of different temperature, of different salinities, of different chemistries, segregate. And during the flood there would have been zones of fresh water, of salt water... there is... again, billions of sea creatures died in Noah's flood. But all the Bible, the biblical account, requires is that two of each of these created kinds would have survived somewhere in a pocket...
Zindler: Somewhere close enough together that they could get back together after the flood! And that stratification would have been impossible, John, because of all the volcanic activity you talk about going on. [37] This would be churning stuff up all the time [hubub]...
Wolfsie: Were there dinosaurs on the ark? Were there dinosaurs on this ark?
Morris: The flood account does not predict...
Wolfsie: Oh! I've got to take a break... What I'm trying to establish...
Zindler: Of course there would have been dinosaurs on the ark!
Wolfsie: I want to understand, because I want to talk about how Noah's flood occurred... and then I think a fair question is, if there were dinosaurs on this ark, how is that in keeping with how we know that man and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time. And if there weren't dinosaurs, where did they come from, since all the species were wiped out? That seems like a fair question. I'll try to remember how I asked that in just a moment, stay tuned...
Edit: agnostic, atheist, christian, whatever. The link I posted is a very good read and entertaining no matter what you are. I highly reccomend sitting down with a nice cup of coffe and having a nice read.
If you'll attempt to answer my flood questions I might bother asking. It's usually like pulling teeth trying to get people to address even the basics though.[b said:
Open up that old thread (easier to open it with "Print this Topic") and search for "flood" and you'll see what I mean.
In my experience there's little point in talking science when it comes to flood discussion anyway. Either A) flood believers try to use science to prove the flood happened while ignoring mountains of evidence and theory that say it couldn't have (and the science that "proves" it is usually pseudoscience... not simply because it suggests a flood, but because it can't stand up to even basic questioning) or B) flood believers say God kept temporarily manipulating the laws of physics to make it all work out, which effectively ends the conversation because it's totally unverifiable (let alone the problems in logic that crop up).
Usually it starts with step A and ends with step B after the questions start. It's quite tedious to deal with.
Did you for get the part about
Personal Veiws and how they affect how some one lives...
/ Start EXAMPLE
I think pots ok
pots great, so im going to go smoke lots of it no matter what any one ealse says legal or illegal
/ End Example
Its like JLAPS siggy... Except I cant say a few things cause I would end up getting kicked off the forums...
Im sorry you have a beef with christians, get the hell over it ok!? IM sorry you are so close minded that you can even begin to concider creationism. Let alone talk about it with some kind of humanity.
Personal Veiws and how they affect how some one lives...
/ Start EXAMPLE
I think pots ok
pots great, so im going to go smoke lots of it no matter what any one ealse says legal or illegal
/ End Example
Its like JLAPS siggy... Except I cant say a few things cause I would end up getting kicked off the forums...
Im sorry you have a beef with christians, get the hell over it ok!? IM sorry you are so close minded that you can even begin to concider creationism. Let alone talk about it with some kind of humanity.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
on the whole flood.........you guys are not reading it right. you are going by the current ENGLISH version. IIRC if you go by some of the earlier hebrew versions that the present ones were translated from it did not say for him to gather up 2 of every animal......it said gather up two of every clean animal or something along those lines. which ment he gathered up around 250 critters total IIRC. 2 oxen, 2 donkeys, 2 chickens, 2 geese.........ect. i forget where but it lists somewhere else in the bible what animals are considered clean.
part of the problem with arguments where you are quoting scripture is your only going by the current english translation. if you go by older translations things are alil bit off. another example is the 10 commandments. the english version of "thou shall not kill" is incorrect. the hebrew word used was the one for murder. which in consept are two very different things. one is killing for no reason, the other allows the defence of ones self even if the outcome is fatal you are not breaking a conmandmet provided lethal force was needed to save your own life.
as far as my view of the bible, it was written by men and there for it is quite possible it is flawed. being that most definatly men translated it from one language to another that even if the original texts are 100% accurate, the current translations most definatly arent 100% accurate
part of the problem with arguments where you are quoting scripture is your only going by the current english translation. if you go by older translations things are alil bit off. another example is the 10 commandments. the english version of "thou shall not kill" is incorrect. the hebrew word used was the one for murder. which in consept are two very different things. one is killing for no reason, the other allows the defence of ones self even if the outcome is fatal you are not breaking a conmandmet provided lethal force was needed to save your own life.
as far as my view of the bible, it was written by men and there for it is quite possible it is flawed. being that most definatly men translated it from one language to another that even if the original texts are 100% accurate, the current translations most definatly arent 100% accurate
