Further proof of Evolution? 4-finned dolphin....

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I'm wrong but when a species evolves, the specie that doesn't dies off. Survival of the fittest if you will.

Actually, not always. Many times *both* survive.

Imagine you have one population, and suddenly a river splits the habitat in two, separating it into two populations (assume it's something small, which can't cross the river). One side of the river becomes plains, while the other is forest. Faced with different selective pressures, they evolve in different directions, and eventually they couldn't interbreed even if they river dried up and they both intermingled. Each spreads throughout their habitat, becoming two new species.

This happens all the time, and sometimes doesn't even require geographic separation; it's especially common in parasites who jump to a new host. The colonizers evolve to suit the new host, and soon there are two species in the same range, one on each host species.

Of course, then things like asteroids happen, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

Quote[/b] ]Sure we might have similar DNA to [insert monkey specie here] but you're jumping way too many conclusions if you believe we came from a monkey.

Why? Our DNA isn't similar, it's almost totally identical. We have a chain of fossils going all the way back.

But more important than the genes are what's *wrong* with the genes. See, viruses insert their DNA in cells in order to make copies, but every so often, something goes wrong, and the DNA of the virus gets damaged and can't replicate. It simply inserts into the organism's DNA, fails, and stays there, passed on with the rest of the real genes.

Chimps and humans share the same dead virus parts, in *precisely* the same places (though some are unique to each lineage, aquired after we diverged). Similarly, Chimps and humans share some, but not all of our dead viri with gorillas (indicating a slightly more distant ancestry). So on and so forth.

Is there *really* any other plausible explanation for why we inherited the same dead virus parts in the same places with the same disabling mutations, other than that the virus infected our common ancestor, failed, and got 'stuck'?

And before you ask, yes, they are real virus genomes; we recently 'ressurected' one, using data from human and ape genomes to reconstruct a *viable* virus that infected our ancestor 5 million years ago.

Quote[/b] ] It is also pretty far fetched if you believe all life on Earth evolved from a one celled thing in the ocean billions of years ago.

Not really: why does all life work the same, at the molecular level, otherwise? There's no reason things *must* work the way they do; there's tons of plausible chemical alternatives. Yet we *all*, from bacteria to Bob Smith down the road, read the DNA code *precisely* the same way. Why, if not common descent?

Why do all living things use the same 20 amino acids? There's many, many more than 20 amino acids that are chemically possible, but *ALL* life uses the same 20.

Why do all animo acids have L chirality? There's no reason R-chiral ones won't work. But still, *every* living thing uses the same convention.

None of these unifying factors are chemically necessary; we've proven so both with chemistry and by artificially altering bacteria to work in other ways. Yet all life shares this commonality.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps if all life were some type of plant or fish with little variances the theory that we all evolved from something would satisfy.

You are aware than there are 40,000 species of fish, compared to 4,000 mammals (of which 1200 are bats and 1000 are rodents), right? And that fish have far, FAR more morphological, biochemical and genetic diversity than mammals, right?

That's like saying "I'd like to buy that cheesburger, but I only have enough money for a 30-foot yacht and full-time crew." Fish are the paragons of vertebrate diversity.

Plants I'm less familair with, but suffice to say, they similarly put mammals to shame. Hell, just look at what we grow! Plants have evolved to eat animals, but no animals have evolved the ability to photosynthesize.

Quote[/b] ] But the fact of the matter is in my logical opinion and beliefs all species were created (however which way you believe), I believe God created everything. Evolution is just another phenomenon God created in order to sustain life on Earth.

But if you believe God used evolution as a tool, and that speciation occurs, why do you reject the common ancestry of life?

Just because something shares a common ancestor doesn't make it any less special. Look at your family. You all share a common ancestor, but aren't each and every one of you unique, distinct and different in your own special ways?

Similarly, why does common ancestry pose a problem to God using evolution to create life and us? Couldn't you view us like you family, all originating from the same source, yet all different, unique and special?

Mokele

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Mokele thanks for correcting me and agreeing with my concepts at the same time.

 I admit I do not have an in depth knoledge of the subject.  I just know enough to be dangerous. LOL  I love learning new things and I KNOW I do not have all the answers.  Keep on sharing your knowledge.  I LOVE IT!  I wish I knew this stuff when I was debating this with a bible thumpering coworker, who do not believe in evolution, last night!

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] ]
It used to be thought that when a bad person got sick it was Gods will that that person was sick. Then Doctors came along and now it is Gods will that the medical professionals save that person. Sorry I don't buy it. It is my opinion the excuse "it is Gods will" is the voice of ignorance that does not have the answers and it give people a way to explain what cannot be explained at this time. Instead of trying ti figure it out, many people are duped into believing an adiquated explination.

So sure we have all the answers aren't we? For every scientific explanation to disprove the existence of God there is a counter and valid explanation to prove His existence. Choose to believe what you want brother but rationally speaking we're both right on level ground to believe what we believe. I can see both sides of the spectrum but science really does nothing but strengthen my beliefs in God. You on the other hand seem to carry the attitude that because scientists haven't proven the existence of the eternal being known as God that He does not exist. You fail to render the other side that science also cannot prove that He does not exist. Just know that God loves you even if you will forever reject the possibility of His existence.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

I just find it hard to believe in something that has absolutely no tangible evidence, To my knowledge.  If there is some that cannot be disproven then please share it with me.  Just because something cannot be disproven doesn't mean it exists.  It can be speculated it exists.  So please point to a valid explination to prove the existance of a god.  Because at the momment I am unaware of one.  Science has proven everything to my knowledge so far.

And just for the record I have never said there was or wasn't a god.  Although the evidence to the fact that there isn't is mounting.  I am still just sitting on the fence leaning to the side of science.  Since science has evidence and religion doesn't.

I never said we had all the answers either, but the longer the scientist pluck at it the closer they will have the explination of everything. Yet even that will not be enough, because even if the scientist do explain everything to a tee and get EVERYTHING right. Then the religion folks are still going to say well that is how God chose to start things and that is how they unfilded. Just like the scientist explained. So the debate can go on, but religion will just keep moving things back and reinterpreting the bible to put god as the initiator of things regardless.

 

[endparenthesis]

Every question asked here so far about evolution (and probably every question to come) was answered in the monster thread on the subject (70+ pages? 100+?) from a year or two ago. I'm tired of re-typing... we should just start linking to old posts.

Though this time we have an actual scholar from the field (Mokele) so I imagine it'll go much quicker this time.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Endparenthesis please link me to that old post. I want something to read! LOL

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ Nov. 07 2006,12:06)]Mokele thanks for correcting me and agreeing with my concepts at the same time.

I admit I do not have an in depth knoledge of the subject. I just know enough to be dangerous. LOL I love learning new things and I KNOW I do not have all the answers. Keep on sharing your knowledge. I LOVE IT! I wish I knew this stuff when I was debating this with a bible thumpering coworker, who do not believe in evolution, last night!

I don't know why you're thumpering coworker wouldn't believe in evolution. Do you mean you're coworker doesn't believe humans we're created from evolution? If that were the case of course not, but evolution does exist.

Mokele seems to have some kind of scientific knowledge on evolution but the problem with it as of all of his information is we don't know where he gets it from. Obviously he doesn't believe in God so there's also a bias with his information and a big possibility that his sources were also bias to his views. This would be acceptable if we just care about the Anti-God perspective, however if the purpose we are discussing these topics is to find real truth it does us no good.

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ Nov. 07 2006,12:30)]Endparenthesis please link me to that old post. I want something to read! LOL

You must have a masochistic bent.

Ok, finally found the magic search term to track it down with:
http://www.terraforums.com/ib312....t=15938

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

But isn't your info biased as well? All the evidence points to a natural mechanism un-regulated by the hand of a supreme being.

You keep pointing to the existance of a supreme being having a hand in the way things evolve, and that we did not evolve from apes. So if you beleive in evolution then why couldn't we have evolved from apes?

Is it because it goes against the 7 day creation story where god creaded Man and not ape?

 

[Rubra]

The question is... does anyone read these topics to find real truth?

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

LOL  I get bored at night sometimes sitting here at work End. I can only read the same info over so many times. That is why I am reading up on Betta now.

Plus it helps to formulate better rebutals when you know the cards that are going to be played.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

LOL No Rubra, they don't, but I do learn things from debates. Since neither party is going to sway in there belief, but a swing has happened on occasion. Just not on this topic.

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]For every scientific explanation to disprove the existence of God there is a counter and valid explanation to prove His existence. Choose to believe what you want brother but rationally speaking we're both right on level ground to believe what we believe.

That's because it's a mis-application of the problem: science deals *strictly* and *only* with the observable. God, as specified in the Judeo-Christian tradition, is unobservable and unknowable. Therefore one cannot use science to disprove Him.

Science tells us how the world works. Religion is what many use to give meaning, moral guidance, and purpose to life. Science cannot disprove (or prove) God, but Religion should also stay away from trying to specify what's true of the material world.

The two can exist in harmony.

Quote[/b] ] I can see both sides of the spectrum but science really does nothing but strengthen my beliefs in God.

While I'm not religious, the closest thing I've had to a spiritual experience was an epiphany when studying photosynthesis, a sense of awestruck wonder at the fact that the huge, multi-ton trees outside were nothing but air, light and water, run through a special chemical cycle.

Evolution, in the purest scientific sense, says nothing about God, common descent or not. Who's to say God isn't hiding behind the scenes, orchestrating what mutation happens when and to whom?

I don't believe in God, but not because of science. Religion really has nothing to fear from science, and can, in fact, be enriched by it.

Quote[/b] ]Though this time we have an actual scholar from the field (Mokele) so I imagine it'll go much quicker this time.

While I'm flattered by your confidence, such threads tend to drag on anyway; there are numerous ones on the science fourms I mod at (www.scienceforums.net) where, in spite of numerous people with education in the subject equal to my own, it *still* dragged on.

Also, technically, my field is animal locomotion, but like all of biology, *everything* involves evolution at some level, and as such I've taken numerous courses as a result.

Mokele

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ Nov. 07 2006,12:25)]I just find it hard to believe in something that has absolutely no tangible evidence, To my knowledge. If there is some that cannot be disproven then please share it with me. Just because something cannot be disproven doesn't mean it exists. It can be speculated it exists. So please point to a valid explination to prove the existance of a god. Because at the momment I am unaware of one. Science has proven everything to my knowledge so far.

And just for the record I have never said there was or wasn't a god. Although the evidence to the fact that there isn't is mounting. I am still just sitting on the fence leaning to the side of science. Since science has evidence and religion doesn't.

I never said we had all the answers either, but the longer the scientist pluck at it the closer they will have the explination of everything. Yet even that will not be enough, because even if the scientist do explain everything to a tee and get EVERYTHING right. Then the religion folks are still going to say well that is how God chose to start things and that is how they unfilded. Just like the scientist explained. So the debate can go on, but religion will just keep moving things back and reinterpreting the bible to put god as the initiator of things regardless.

You claim to be agnostic but you only look one way? Show me the official science report that God doesn't exist! Science can both prove and disprove the existence of God, but one final claim can never be made through science alone.

The Bible is clear that God created us with free will. With that free will we have the choice to believe in Him through faith or not to believe in Him. It would be contradictory for God to force upon us 100% concrete tangible proof that He exists. For we would be forced through fear to accept and obey Him. He loves us and wants us to come to Him because we truly love Him. Not because science proved His existence. A perfect analogy for this would be marriage. When we get married, we want the person we're marrying to truly and unconditionally love us, right? What kind of marriage would it be if our wives didn't really love us and only married us out of fear or oppression? It would be a fake love and that isn't the kind of love God seeks us for!

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

LOL. Outsider you are under the misconception that I only look away from god because of science. I look away because the religion is full of hipocrits and I get better treatment from athiests or agnostics than I do from alot of Christians. Folks who use the bible cherry pick what they want to use to prove or disprove something. The bible itself is full of contridictions. Many of the faithful feel they are better than everyone else and would rather spit on you than treat you like a decent person just because you do not go to church and proclaim to believe in God. Now I am not refuring to you in particular, but that is the vide I get from alor of "religious" people. I think it is the biggest tax shelter in the states. Because whenever someone from the church would call my wife and order a pizza they are always snobby when "reminding" her they are tax exempt. So it is not just science that detures me from being a religious persson.

I still hold to the agnostic lable, but I have a very rebelious side and will push back when a religious morality is tried to be forced uppon me. Now I am not a bad person, but I have my own morality and do not like others rights and wrongs being forced uppon me.

Tochey(sp) Show me the official scientific report that God does exist. The bible doesn't count because it is not scientific and was written by man. I was given the excuse that if God had written it we woudln't be able to look uppon it because of some reason. Oh yeah because we were of sin and it would be holy or something like that. Blah blah. God could prove his existance. We would still have free will to love him or not, and God would know what is true and wasn't if he did exist. Since there are many people now anyways CLAIMING to love God and who go through the motions, but are bad people or imoral people according to God. Look at the preacher who just got fired from that mega-church for paying a male prostitue for sex and buying meth from him. So I don't think that excuse is a very valid one because there is alreayd a bunch of fake love for god out there.

There is just to much evidence pointing to the worlds and life being formed by organizing chaos.

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] ]
LOL. Outsider you are under the misconception that I only look away from god because of science. I look away because the religion is full of hipocrits and I get better treatment from athiests or agnostics than I do from alot of Christians. Folks who use the bible cherry pick what they want to use to prove or disprove something.

I'm sorry to here the bad experiences you have had with Christians. Yes there will always be hypocrites unfortunately wherever you go, even in science (Like the claim that there will be no wild fish in 50 years). All I can pray and tell you is that it would never be worth denying yourself a honest seeking of God because of the hypocrites you've encountered. In fact it could be these hypocrites are purposely trying to turn you away from God. The enemy works in every way possible to keep us away from Him.

Quote[/b] ]
The bible itself is full of contridictions.

What have you honestly read in the Bible that is contradictory? Most of these "contradictions" were created because the user failed to analyze the context, mis-interpreted the wording or failed to research the original translations.

Quote[/b] ]
Many of the faithful feel they are better than everyone else and would rather spit on you than treat you like a decent person just because you do not go to church and proclaim to believe in God. Now I am not refuring to you in particular, but that is the vide I get from alor of "religious" people. I think it is the biggest tax shelter in the states. Because whenever someone from the church would call my wife and order a pizza they are always snobby when "reminding" her they are tax exempt. So it is not just science that detures me from being a religious persson.

Once again I'm sorry to hear the experiences you proclaim. However I think we can both agree that the traits you are describing are not of people of true faith. In other words just more Sunday going hypocrites that return to their immoral lifestyle after service. Every true Christian knows that God exists at all times and everywhere. Not just on Sunday at a certain church. Now I'm not saying Christians are perfect, sinless, problem-less people. We have our bad days, our down times, and our bad moments (we are all human and sinners after all). However we can acknowledge our wrongs and work towards the model of our Savior because we believe this is the best possible way we can live. So have pitty on those who live fake lives and pretend, for Jesus said it is worse to know and not listen then to not know at all. It's all about love!

Quote[/b] ]
I still hold to the agnostic lable, but I have a very rebelious side and will push back when a religious morality is tried to be forced uppon me. Now I am not a bad person, but I have my own morality and do not like others rights and wrongs being forced uppon me.

Once again this is your free will. If you want to seek God and grow with Him you will automatically take upon the yolk (values) of God. You will adopt the morality He laid out. I think a lot of your problems is the judging that is going on. I'm sorry to hear that you have been judged and questioned by Christians. I can tell you that they had good intentions, it just came out the wrong way. Truthfully speaking there really is only one who is allowed to judge (God). This correlates with the elections thread about medical procedure/gay marriage and other issues that I disagree with. I'm personally against these issues because of the yolk that I have adopted from God. However I personally don't judge or condemn people who practice or want to practice these things. Instead I love them as I love myself, which is another part of God's yolk.

Quote[/b] ]
Tochey(sp) Show me the official scientific report that God does exist.

I really didn't mean for this to be a back and forth thing. I was just trying to prove the point.

Quote[/b] ]
The bible doesn't count because it is not scientific and was written by man.

That is your interpretation of it. As a Christian I believe that the Bible was written by God through man with the use of the Holy Spirit.

Quote[/b] ]
I was given the excuse that if God had written it we woudln't be able to look uppon it because of some reason. Oh yeah because we were of sin and it would be holy or something like that. Blah blah. God could prove his existance. We would still have free will to love him or not, and God would know what is true and wasn't if he did exist. Since there are many people now anyways CLAIMING to love God and who go through the motions, but are bad people or imoral people according to God. Look at the preacher who just got fired from that mega-church for paying a male prostitue for sex and buying meth from him. So I don't think that excuse is a very valid one because there is alreayd a bunch of fake love for god out there.

There is just to much evidence pointing to the worlds and life being formed by organizing chaos.

A big piece of the puzzle your missing here is the private, personal relationship with God. You keep mentioning "religious" and "organizations". It seems to me you had a bad Catholic or some kind of other traditional experience. Yes there's fake followers of God and there's a reason there is. It's the work of the enemy and so far it has been effective against you in your life. For it has kept you away from experiencing a true intimate relationship with God.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

It is true I have been baptized catholic when I was a baby, but I do not trust a catholic as far as I can through them. The whole choosing the pope in secret thing and all the secrets they hold unnerves me. I believe they are the reason for alot of this underhandedness in religion today.

Now don't get me wrong religion is not a bad thing. Some people need the guidance because many are too stupid to live right with out it. Notice I said many. That was not dirrected an anyone in particular so please don't take it that way. The only thing is many people take it to far and try to impose it on others. I don't care that others are religous. It does not affect me one way or the other if someone is religious or not. You are correct in the fact it comes down to people judging me because I am not religious. Yet I feel I am a good person. I trust people unles given a reason not to. So you could say I follow basicly the same path as a religious person, but I don't contribute it to the same aspect. Now does this mean I don't do things that would be shunned by religion? No. I just don't consider everything to be bad that I do, but others might. I was talking with a religious coworker, one of my favorite ones to talk with, and she said what difference does it make if religion helpsmake the world a better place. But something that I failed to think of when we were talking. What about all the wars started because of religion. Anyway I am against religion because I do not feel it holds true to the way Jesus intended it to be. Since he was the one who started it. Also I do not believe he was born of imaculate conception. Ibelieve that was altered and added to the bible by the catholic preists a long time ago to gain power. I believe Jesus was a good man, but he was also the leader of a cult gone wild. IMO

As you knwo I am still on the fence about the existance of a God. I just dont the fact that it seems like a master/slave relationship. Refuring to him as lord.

The same coworker that I like talking to about many things also reads the bible on a regular basis here at work, and she told me there was numorous contrdictions in the bible. She was going through and doing some math computation from one of the versus and it wasn't adding up. Had something to do with someones age or something. But she said herself the bible was full of contrdictions and left alot to interpretaion. So if it is left to interpretaion then it is logical to believe that that would fuel some of the controversy as well.

 

[phissionkorps]

Outsiders...

While I feel that the bible is the most atrocious work to ever slime its way across the literary table (no matter which way you look at it), it is NOT a history book. Taking a bunch of fables compiled by a small secluded group of nomads wandering in the desert 2000 years ago as fact, in light of empirical evidence is rediculous. If you want to debate people here, feel free, go ahead, whatever. But to do so, you need ACTUAL proof, not "well its in the bible, so its true, because the bible says the bible is true, so...the bible must be true". The bible isnt worthless, its a good moral tool...but just as you dont use a pizza cutter to sand a table (not saying a pizza cutter isnt a good tool with a specific purpose), you cant use the bible as evidence for anything...ever...

 

[nepenthes_ak]

Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ Nov. 06 2006,9:58)]Those indeviduals that feel they are too good to be decendant from apes or ape like creatures just irritate me. We have found the missing link that apes and humans decended from a common ancestor.

I dont feel too good to be a decendant from apes, apes are awsome.

IT just isnt logical to me...

 

[Pyro]

I am not going to waste everyone's time by going over all the science arguments because Mokele has done an excellent job of that and I agree with almost everything he has said/discussed and what I disagree with is probably just semantics more than anything else.

What I would like to point out is that religious "anti-Darwin" Christian clade seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that Pope John Paul II declared that there was no contradiction between darwinian evoltion and the existance of a God. He also blatantly described darwinian evolution as more than just a hypothesis. (And as a side note I am also glad JP2 got around to vindicating Galileo and admitted the Church's fault but that is all an aside.)

ANd the current pope has shown no inclination to counter JP2. He has immediatly accepted that theology ought not interfere with science and at the recent annual paupal retreat the topic of discussion was creation and evolution. Discussions from the retreat suggest that the Church will affirm a form of theistic evolution, which posits the general principle that biological evolution is valid. At the same time it is likely the Church will reject the fundamental intelligent design principle.

I think it would behove the anti-science religions community to have a better grasp of what their leaders have accepted before they go out on crusades.

I find it refreshing that the Church accepts that it should not attempt to question the basic theory of evolution becaue it is not something that is within the realm of theology. Like wise I think scientists would be better to leave the field of theology to those that are so schooled.

And in closing I'd like to recommend some reading material. If you are interested in evolution and a semi-layman's discussion of how humans could come from a single-celled organism I'd recommend Dawkins book 'The Ancestor's Tale' though I will warn that, while the science is very telloing, he is very anti-religion so you'll have to have a thick skin to survive some of his caustic remarks if you are religious. And for reconciliation of between creationism and evolution try Collins book 'The Language of God' which discusses the work of Theodosius Dobzhansky. Or find some of Dobzhansky's work.