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Thread: im not going to be so nice next year.........

  1. #33
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    one of the rhino subspecies has recently died out, and, well, read for yourself
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]For most of the 20th century the continental black rhino was the most numerous of all rhino species. Around 1900 there were probably several hundred thousand[3] living in Africa. During the latter half of the 20th century their number severely reduced from an estimated 70,000[4] in the late 1960s to only 10,000 to 15,000 in 1981. In the early 1990s the number dipped below 2500, and in 1995 it was reported that only 2,410 black rhinos remained. According to the International Rhino Foundation, the total African population has since then slightly recovered to 3,610 by 2003.[5] According to a July 2006 report by the World Conservation Union, a recent survey of the West African Black Rhino, which once ranged across the savannahs of western Africa but had dropped to just 10, concluded the subspecies to be extinct. [6] The northern white is soon to join the western black rhino on the extinction list as its last noted numbers were as few as 4. The only rhino that has recovered somewhat from the brink of extinction is the southern white whose numbers now are estimated around 14,500, up from only 50 a century ago.[7]
    Do those numbers, 3,610 for just black rhino, signify a large-scale recovery? The best is indeed the white rhino, but the northern subspecies just died out due to poaching. I think the number should be atleast 5,000 animals to be considerd recoverd enough to hunt! The IRF says ( http://www.rhinos-irf.org/rhinoinfor...hino/index.htm ) that. Just because black rhino's are increasing from an all-time low does not mean that they have recoverd enough to hunt.
    that makes no logic

  2. #34
    rattler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Just because black rhino's are increasing from an all-time low does not mean that they have recoverd enough to hunt.
    anychance you know weither there is a high percentage of males? anyways ive only heard of them being able to be hunted within the last 18 months or so......the price is EXTREAMLY high and i have yet to see a picture of some one who has successfully hunted one. what i am guessing has happened is the countries government hass allowed the shooting of older males past their prime that are no longer contributing to the gene pool. give as much as the hunt costs a significant portion is most likely making its way back to help out the rhinos.

    a quick look at the range of the northern subspecies shows me that it was in areas that do not allow hunting at all or just recently(in the case of the Congo) have allowed hunting and do not really have a well running system of anti hunting patrols set up.

    the southern white rhino is down in the countries that have always allowed hunting. even in countries that havent had the steadiest governments, the rhino has held on due to the efforts of hunters. the northern species was in areas such as the Sudan, Uganda and eastern Congo which really havent been accessible to hunters do to a very very bad political climate.

    hunters=conservation dollars, hunters as a whole are VERY interested in keeping large tracks of land as natural as possible for game animals to thrive. hell the president who started the national parks was one of the biggest hunters of them all Teddy Roosevelt. hunters have brought back the pronghorn and bighorn sheep from the brink of extinction. hunters are the reason that mule deer numbers are climbing where they were almost wiped out. "activists" are the ones causing big horn sheep to die off in the southwest USA because they will not allow hunters to control the feral populations of horses, donkeys and goats. i, personally, donate alot of money to Ducks Unlimited and i dont own a shotgun nor do i have any interest, what so ever, zero, zip, nada, in hunting waterfowl(i did it once and never again) but the group does ALOT for improving and rebuilding wetlands which means better deer hunting for me cause other animals benifit from the work, not just waterfowl.
    cervid serial killer
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  3. #35
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]the southern white rhino is down in the countries that have always allowed hunting. even in countries that havent had the steadiest governments, the rhino has held on due to the efforts of hunters. the northern species was in areas such as the Sudan, Uganda and eastern Congo which really havent been accessible to hunters do to a very very bad political climate.
    What the map doesnt' say is that the recovery has almos exlusivly been in south africa, the country with the strongest goverment and strictest regulations... In POACHING. Not just hunting The northern countries did not do a thing to prevent the decline, or prevent pochers.

    I am not against hunting rhinos specifically. I just worry that their population may be too low to allow hunting to resume.

    I agree with you the value of hunters. I myself am also a donater to DU and enjoy their magazene, and have not hunted. Its well written. I am not anti-hunter. Do not assume, by me disagreeing with you, that i dont know how hunters have helped, how they set the first conservation laws. And dont confuse conservationists with animal rights activists. I have a big problem with THOSE activists. They try to stop the population controls of goats on offshore islands as well. They are NOT conservationists in the sence of ecosystems. Those 'activsts' of wich you speak in reference to the bighorn sheep...

    I know hunters are some of the best things to come along for this planet and help conserve lots of stuff. I am actually in most respects very pro-hunting. We need it. Hunters provide a most valubal service to us all. When everything comes down to it, i almost always agree with the hunters. For example, hunting is needed to control populations of deer, snow geese, and other animals that overpopulate. Without them, the enviorment woud be very much damaged, and the animals would die a slow death. Without hunters, how could we eradicate the scourge of offshore islands, the goats, to allow the islands to recover? We cant!

    But with rhinos, the goverments in their ranges that just cant control the hunting and poaching often see a decline. The parks just dont prevent hunting, they activly prevent poaching within their borders, something that outside of the desegnated area would be difficult.
    that makes no logic

  4. #36
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I don't agree with relying on the Market to protect endangered species. Species will have no reason to exist unless someone can squeeze a profit out of them. I'm not ready to concede that a system of glorified elephant farms = conservation.

    Plenty of hunters consider it a good day of hunting if they shoot a farm raised pheasant that stumbles out in front of them as they walk across a field almost shoulder to shoulder with other people. Or if they shoot a deer that spent the summer fattening up on exurban gardens. Just like lots of people consider fishing to be catching pale hatchery trout with balls of Velveeta. Many, like Rattler, aren't that way, but people whose interest in the outdoors is satisfied by pulling a few farmed fish out of a silted-up stream aren't a reliable force for conservation.

    Beyond that, too many hunters are so mesmerized by the politics of their guns that they've become a pretty solid voting bloc in favor of any anti-environmental policy proposed by the NRA Party. Paying millions of dollars of excise taxes towards stocking fish and maintaining some land doesn't overcome that. I'm still pro-hunting, but with reservations.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  5. #37
    rattler's Avatar
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    Finch wasnt just refering to South Africa.....was also refering to countries like Tanzania and Zimbabwe(where i will prolly be hunting).

    Finch by your arguments ive never gotten the sence your an antihunter. most of my original comments were directed twords others, you just seem to be more interested in disscussing this.

    Bruce i agree that hunting blocks are not the only answer. a very effective anti poaching tactic though has been to ring the large National parks over there with hunting consessions. this in effect allows the anti poaching patrols to extend much farther out than the park borders keeping the poachers from setting up shop a mile or so outside of the parks. this also helps put more buffer room between the parks and encroaching humans other than the odd farm that has always been there.
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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  6. #38
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Ah, i must have misunderstood.
    rattler, the menthods you are suggsting in terms of this do indeed seem low-impact. But, is there any goverment oversight on hunting there as it is there, like bag limits and tags? Also, the hunting would have to have restrictions. Where goverment is weak, that would have to rely on the guides and the unters themselves, and i dont know about you, but i feel that history shows that people cannot offten self-reguate themselves. Not as an individual, but as a whole. In many areas of central africa, its difficult to find any large animals due to out-of control market hunting.
    that makes no logic

  7. #39
    rattler's Avatar
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    government oversite is the rule but prices are generally market driven. a government has to allow hunting in the country for it to take place. other wise the hunter is in effect a poacher. you can only import elephant ivory and rhino horn from countries that are working with CITES. if you take an elephant in a country that is not working with CITES than you can not get a permit to import the ivory or what ever into the USA. same situation with lion i believe. in order to be CITES compliant there have to be strict bag limits and such which is why in Africa you pay for every animal you hit with a bullet, recovered or not. with some species if you wound one and it gets away the assumption is it will die from the wounds and you are done hunting that species
    cervid serial killer
    Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety
    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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  8. #40
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    rattler_mt For the most part, the large free ranging populations of rhinos that used to roam over huge areas, and which therefore could not be adequately protected, have been eliminated or reduced to low numbers. The bulk of remaining black rhinos occur in areas with more concentrated security, such as national parks.[1]

    We arnt just talking about hunters from overseas here, but also bushmeat hunters who live within the rhino lands.

    I should note that the rhino decline started before any restrictions and park systems were in place. This, and the fact that only Two countries have shown net increases in numbers of black and white rhino over the period 1980-2001: South Africa and Namibia. In both countries, investments in conservation programmes, including monitoring and law enforcement, have been high.[1]

    If what you say is true, why is the increase only in the two countries that have been able to almost eliminate poaching and hunting from their lands? Why not in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, wich has no enforcement?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Civil unrest and the free flow of weapons in Africa have had a significant impact on African rhino conservation efforts. Black rhino populations in Angola, Central African Republic, Chad, Mozambique, Namibia, Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan and Uganda have to varying degrees all suffered from the consequences of war and civil unrest since the 1960s (Emslie and Brooks 1999)
    This civil unrest has almost stopped all protection programs in these countries at one time or another. During those periods, rhino nimbers declined.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Many remaining rhino are now concentrated in fenced sanctuaries, conservancies, rhino conservation areas and intensive protection zones where law enforcement effort can be concentrated at effective levels.
    that makes no logic

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