im not going to be so nice next year.........

[rattler]

Finch...........not quite sure what your getting at. either the paint fumes are getting to me(repainting the bathroom) or im just missing what your point is?

im thinking you are taking what i said about CITES and applying it elsewhere that it has no corolation with. you are right, the countries of South Africa and Namibia have the strictest anti poaching efforts. but what was not said is that these two countries are also the ones who allow the hunting consessions to run their own anti poaching squads. these squads arent just out to stop the poaching of trophy game animals, they also remove untold thousands of snares ment for smaller critters destained for the meat markets.

the Congo has only started allowing hunters with in there borders on anything resembling a regular basis in the last few years. im sure they will wind up with a similar setup to its southern neighbors as time goes by. the same with Uganda and the Southern Sudan.

the top two countries to go hunting in Africa are South Africa and Namibia. so they have not eliminated hunting from their lands. South Africa is the most visited country for plains game and Namibia is very often a destination to hunt other plains game such as gemsbok which arent really found in South Africa. these two countries are the most visited hunting destinations because they have stable friendly governments.

 

[Finch]

I was refering to a comment that banning hunting on national parks was the cause of the decline.
Just national parks.
I meant that the banning of hunting them within national parks was benefiting them, not harming them. I thought they could be hunted on game preserves, NOT national parks. I think prehaps we are confusing the two.

 

[rattler]

oh ok, never said hunting was allowed in parks(i dont think, if i did it was miss stated). said it was common practice to let hunting outfits set up shop out side the park boundries so that their anti poaching patrols are also helping out the park, albiet outside their boarders.

 

[Finch]

how am i supposed to have a discussion with someone so rational as to support hunting in hunting preserves

Ugh i mistook a statement of yours to say that no hunting in national parks was bafd and have been structuring all my arguments around it. I hate it when that happens

 

[rattler]

lol no problems Finch, been a good discussion

 

[Finch]

yeh it was, considering we were taking about two different things, and neither of us noticed for awhile, just to find that we may have been in agreement all along....

 

[herenorthere]

Well this is fizzling out. Bummer. Would a penguin hunt be good preparation for big game hunting in Africa? Other than for the different environment, tactics, and so on? Or would it be better to practice on baby seals?

 

[Alexis]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not upset but the anti-hunters anti-gun people are always out to get hunters. Alexis was crying over seeing a deer killed. Do you realize how many CARS kill not only deer but all sorts of animals every year? Would you rather see a deer shot killed and eaten or hit by a car, had all it bones smashed and still be alive trying to run away?

Cmon......

Who says anti-hunt are anti-gun?

I'm quite aware of how many animals get flattened each year and whether I would I rather see a deer shot and eaten or run over - how about neither?

 

[aprilh]

I'm not sure why someone would want to spend thousands of dollars just to go kill something...surely it could be done cheaper and closer.

I'm not against hunting. Hunters are conservationists, IMO. License fees from hunters around the world benefit conservation efforts. But to say hunting is not about the killing is something that makes me angry with hunters who say that. Of course it's about killing. Why else would some of them shoot barn cats or horses or cattle during deer or turkey season? None of those things look like deer or turkeys. Within 100 yards of a house?

Hunters should just ball up and admit they enjoy killing things. Otherwise, they'd just take a camera.

Aren't greater Kudu an endangered species?

 

[herenorthere]

Maybe if a camera were louder and kicked a little more . . .

As for going around the world to hunt, some people go trekking in the Himalayas instead of walking around their neighborhood.  Others go on a cruise instead of lying on a chair and pigging out at home.  Rattler wants to go hunting in Africa instead of, say, coming here to take care of my squirrel problem.  I'm kind of anti-travel, but plenty of people go long distances for all kinds of reasons.

By the way, it's good to see you back April.

 

[aprilh]

thanks, herenorthere. That orchid you sent me is still happily alive, BTW. It is a paph. niveum. I was dealing with "family drama", LOL! Mom not going quietly into that great night. Not that she should. She's in pain 24-7...and makes sure everyone around her feels it, too. She's senile, going blind, and only very reluctantly and recently given up her driver's license. I feel so bad for her. I've been trying to get her appropriate health care, and not the standard FL senior citizen drive-by version.

I'm not anti-travel, at all. I just don't emotionally understand the concept of seeing all this wonderful wildlife...then wanting to kill it. After you've killed it, then what? You have some nice throw pillows?

Intellectually, I totally understand what and why Rattler wants to do what he wants to do...emotionally it's a bit of a problem. For me. But Godspeed to Rattler. I just hope he gets "skunked" in Africa, LOL~

 

[rattler]

not sure if i can properly explain myself to yah April but ill try(BTW sorry to hear bout your personal problems, my wife went through similar not that long ago with her grandmother) also greater kudu are not in anyway endangered, infact they still currently have one of the largest ranges of any of the antelopes.

i was and am quite serious when i said hunting for me isnt about killing something. if i wanted to just go out and kill something i could have filled up a pickup bed full of deer legally(could have purchased 8 deer tags this year) instead i purchased my usual 2 and i didnt shoot anything. why didnt i shoot anything? i dont rightly know, could have shot a doe at several points and filled my antlerless tag but i didnt. didnt fill my A tag cause i didnt run across a buck i felt like shooting.

why do i want to go to Africa and hunt. well ive been reading about African hunting for aslong as i could read. i want the experiance. if i just wanted to kill some african critters i could pay less to shoot some old zoo animals in a small pen in Texas. if i just wanted to hunt in africa i could do much the same thing on the Eastern Cape of South Africa, heck i could even shoot a tiger. but im not interested in doing that. instead im going to pay more and hunt in Zimbabwe and will be hunting in much the same country ive been reading about for over 20 years. the real Africa where lions wander through camp and the occational scamble from an irrate mother elephant who thinks we are a threat to her calf are very real possibilities.......its not so much the killing of a critter, its the experiance, the adventure doing so represents..........the very real chance that i will not come back without a scratch......

i realize you will not fully understand this April(or Alexis or Sean for that matter) but there are ppl on here who do understand exactly what i am talking about and until you take up hunting and go through the experiance yourself i highly doubt any of it will make any sence to you. some of your examples April, are from the type of hunters i refuse to deal with. there is a very good reason why the list of ppl i hunt with is very short, number one rule on my list is alcohol isnt touched till we are back at the cabin and have everything put away. unfortunatly some of my good friends do not believe this which is why i do the vast majority of my hunting with my wife.

 

[Ozzy]

Quote[/b] ]there is a very good reason why the list of ppl i hunt with is very short,

Is this so they won't have to duck down when you take a shot?

 

[Alexis]

Would you say you were an empathic person?

I just can't get my head around the lack of empathy for killing a bigger version of a domestic cat...

Sure, lions have no concept of what killing actually is - they do it automatically because they were made that way.

On one hand, we say we're higher beings and have the right to control things, but on the other hand why do some us find killing acceptable and fun, and others are appalled?

Serial killers are often described as lacking empathy and remorse in the same way predatory animals do. I just can't see much difference between a serial killer and someone who kills higher mammals.

Where does it become unacceptable? What are you views on killing gorillas, orang utangs and chimpanzees?

 

[Clint]

It's not a bigger version of a domestic cat.. It's a lion... That's like saying an ostrich is a bigger version of a domestic finch.. not quite the same to me. I totally agree that I personally would NEVER kill a lion, or a deer, or a bear or even a chipmunk. I wouldn't be happy afterwards. I'd feel horrible and lie in bed depressed all day and probably cry for that animal. BUT I'm going to take rattlers side here because it's his right and he doesn't go out and kill everything just to be killing. If he enjoys it, let him do it. That's pretty much my motto. If it feels good, do it as long as you'r not hurting another citizen.

I think comparing a hunter (rattler... and my father for that matter) to a serial killer is a bit much, don't you? I do think it's kind of creepy to mount animals though.. We have a full standing bear in our living room. That took some getting used to lol

I think we can all agree that killing other primates is a no-no. Perhaps it's because we are so closely related. Are we related to lions? Yes, but not so much as primates. Perhaps it's because they are SO smart. Same with dolphins. Who could kill a dolphin? A monster. Perhaps i'm a hypocrite for saying "Well, you can kill a deer or a lion but not a dolphin or an ape because they are so cute and smart!"

I think I read somewhere that often the hunter will just take the head of an elephant and leave the body for the starving locals to eat. As much as I love elephants, I think starving kenyans or whatever are more important. I bet elephant meat is hard... lol

Reminds me of a comedian doing an impression of a Peta activist. It went something like "Oh no! There's a dolphin stuck in a net! We'll help you! GET OUT OF HERE YOU STUPID TUNA!!!!"

I think some people have a steriotype of hunters as Jimbo and Ned from southpark. Stupid, kill everything that moves hunters and leaving them there. Even with the most redneckiest redneck i've met, that's never been the case (and I really... REALLY dislike rednecks so me sticking up for them just a tiny little bit says a LOT)

 

[rattler]

Alexis, on this i can only answer for myself, but as to what is unacceptible? very simple, cold blooded killing of ppl and the wanton killing of animals just for the sake of killing. i have zero problems with the idea of killing the large apes, however i dont believe it should happen because they are criticly endangered.

i do feel remorseful over the killing of an animal.........and i realize for you thats going to be hard to understand as to why i still do it and im not sure i can even fully explain it, especially to someone who has zero interest in hunting. i kill feral cats without thinking twice about it but have no interest shooting someones pet tabby(other than the couple trying to use my bird feeder as a buffet). i kill every mouse that enters my house but have spent hours quietly watching wild deer mice in the fields behind my house, just enjoying the heck out of watching do what they do naturally without a second thought to killing them though i knew full well they were likely to wind up in the house at some point.

as for me shooting what you call "over grown house cat", doubt you could ever understand it. in all actuality they are nothing but a wild, over grown house cat. much more so than any of their kin. they do not actually fear man, they have no problems making a meal out of him if the chance comes and hunting them either by bait and blind or with hounds still has the vast majority of the favor on the side of the leopard. if you dont believe this i invite you to come with me, you pay your airfare and the observer daily rates and you are more than welcome to tag along with me if you wish. but i do warn you facing hippos on land and leopard on foot after hounds is not for the faint of heart and would assume after the first encounter you will be wanting a rifle in your hands as well.

 

[rattler]

Quote[/b] ]I think I read somewhere that often the hunter will just take the head of an elephant and leave the body for the starving locals to eat. As much as I love elephants, I think starving kenyans or whatever are more important. I bet elephant meat is hard

actually usually only the tusks are taken but you are right usually within 2 or 3 hours of the killing shot 100 or more locals show up with baskets and knives and usually before night fall(who wants to spend the night next to several tons of meat with lions around) the whole skeleton is stripped clean of every chunk of meat.

actually im told elephant isnt to bad to eat taste wise but is very stringy. the locals also love a hunter shooting a hippo, apparently their fat is highly prized and the meat quite good.

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

Well hunters and people who support us, bottom line is you cannot change a person who does not like hunting or killing, viewpoints or mind. They just do not realize what a big favor we do so they can covet their furry little love bunnies.

 

[herenorthere]

Following up on Alexis's empathy issues; that kind of thinking led me to a weird conclusion a few years ago.  I realized that catch-and-release fishing bothers me more than people who fish & hunt for food or trophies or who club baby seals for furs and so on.  Seriously.  At least most people who kill our fellow creatures are doing it for something tangible, whether they get a couple filets, a head on the wall, or a few dollars for a skin.  A catch-and-release fisherman, on the other hand, is only seeking the thrill of tricking and tormenting a fish.  Then puts it back and pats himself on the back for being so humane.  He might as well put a hook in a piece of yarn and cast it across a room full of kittens.  As long as he releases each crying kitten back into the room after reeling it in.

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

Thats an interesting viewpoint Bruce. Actually its quite valid. What do you say to someone whom catches a fish and it is the wrong species they are after or it is undersized and it must/can be throw back?