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Saddam Hussein executed today before dawn
- Thread starter Finch
- Start date
Personally, I think all people (even horrible dictators) have worth as human beings. Because of this, I am against the death penalty. If anyone thinks that killing a single person in revenge will solve the crisis in the middle east, they are sadly mistaken. The US govt will undoubtedly flaunt this for months in as a symbolic "I told you so" gesture which in reality, has no bearing on terrorism or radicalism in the middle east. Saddam wasn't the driving force behing radical islam or terrorism. This was caused by many independant groups with the same mentality. Unlike past enemies of the west, terrorism isn't an organized beurocracy with a "head" that can be cut off, rendering it powerless. Once Hitler was taken out of power, Nazism withered and dissapeared. Fighting terrorisims is more difficult. Terrorist cells are like D. adelea. You can pull them up as much as you want, but they can regenerate with the smallest root fragment. The way the US fights terrorism is an anachronism. The US needs to adapt thier strategy, or better yet, pull out.
just my 2 cents
just my 2 cents
JB_OrchidGuy
Cardiac Nurse
Clint you know me and you know I do not like big brother looking over me, but for crying out loud. The patriot act has not and will never take any on individuals rights away. There are wayyyyyy to many phone calls going on for any government organization to monitor them all. I had an analyst tell me this that I go to the Gym with. Everyone who is paranoid that the government is going to be listening in on a phone conversation is crazy. You have to be doing something worth being listened to or else they are not going to listen to you. There are too many other phone conversations of importance to worry about. The fact of the matter is you have to be doing something to make yourself a target for investigation PERIOD! If you are not doing anything wrong then they are not going to waste there time with you.
Homer you are correct than goodness for Term Limits. Now we just need them for congress and things will be peachy, but as I said those lifers in Congress are not going to give up the golden egg that easily. Voting yourself a term limit is absurd in there eyes. They are too greedy and power hungry. I mean come on. There has to be something to it. You are going to spend Millions of dollars to get a job that only pays about 100 to 150K a year? Come on they do it for the perks and for the fringe benefits of being in office. Not to mention the power it brings them.
Clint the thing about pink was just how that sheriff runs his jails. A lot of the hard core thugs in prison do not want to be seen in all pink. Nothing against homosexuals intended there.
Also Yes I think if they do not work they do not eat. Why should a criminal be treated better than a homeless person? A/C is not a necessity of life. Folks lived a long time without it and I consider it a luxury and not a necessity. Medical care. Again I say why should a criminal be treated better than our poor and homeless?? We should be giving the poor and homeless free medical care before we give it to an inmate. The inmate should have to work for his food and care. Especially since some inmates do things to themselves to get themselves medical care and be in the hospital. I have seen it before. I still say the criminals seem to have far more rights than the civilian does anymore. Heck if your resisting arrest you need the crap beat out of you, but the police cannot do their job anymore because if they use the slightest force to subdue a criminal then they get in trouble not the criminal.
Now to the death penalty issue. Why spend the money to keep them alive when we know they did something?? When it is not based on he said she said BS? It is cheaper to just end it and move on. I am sorry I value civilized life more than I do those who choose not to be civilized. I know I am not perfect myself, but I am not going to be doing something that will result in the death penalty either. Now don't think I am for just killing everyone. Heck that would be absurd, but if you killed someone and it was not an accident then off with your head. If your out raping and mooning Innocent women and children. Off with your head. We don't need you or your gene pool in our nation. Again I say the consequences for our actions are not severe enough any more.
I do agree with you that the laws are screwed up too, but it is a double edged sword where both sides are sharp. It is not just the laws it is other things as well.
I do not agree with your statement that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. If you have Harsh punishments they act as better deterrents then the woosie ones we have now. I bet you no one would want to get caught for stealing if they were to take a finger or a hand if caught. I bet you people would not vandalize stuff if they knew they would get 20 lashings with a bamboo staff. As it stands now the crime is worth the risk of the punishment in a lot of cases so people still commit the crimes. If the punishment was far worse than not committing the crime then people would not commit it. Since it would not be worth the punishment.
Clint I also believe that EST covered this already, but a WMD is not just a nuke bro. we did not think Saddam had nukes, but we know he had Anthrax and other bio-weapons at one point in time. Like Bruce said we got him those things. I can see why we are hated, but it is just like the racial war going on over here. We still have a lot of folks wanting whites to be held accountable for what our ancestors did. It cannot work that way. I nor anyone else for that matter can be held responsible for those that kept slaves. Just like we should not be held responsible for what our past government did behind the scenes.
The fact of the matter is neither side is right in this fight. The Jihadist keep pushing and we keep pushing back. I don't have an answer. I wish I did, but in a world where it is survival of the fittest a sure fire way to end it is to get rid of the competition, and I sure as heck would want my country to be victorious. So be as barbaric as it may sound. Since I do not think they are just going to put down there arms and forgive and forget. Then they must be forced to.
One last thing. I find this rather funny.
I seen it posted in this thread too. The administration was criticized for doing nothing about the intelligence that there was going to be a 9-11 attack. Also the administration is being criticized for trying to prevent another attack. That goes back to the point bought up in this thread also. Bush is being criticized for going over and trying to take out the terrorists, but had he done nothing after 9-11 he would have been criticized for not taking any action. So the man is in a loose loose situation. He is not going to make everyone happy, and for that matter no one will ever make everyone happy. Its a fact of life.
Homer you are correct than goodness for Term Limits. Now we just need them for congress and things will be peachy, but as I said those lifers in Congress are not going to give up the golden egg that easily. Voting yourself a term limit is absurd in there eyes. They are too greedy and power hungry. I mean come on. There has to be something to it. You are going to spend Millions of dollars to get a job that only pays about 100 to 150K a year? Come on they do it for the perks and for the fringe benefits of being in office. Not to mention the power it brings them.
Clint the thing about pink was just how that sheriff runs his jails. A lot of the hard core thugs in prison do not want to be seen in all pink. Nothing against homosexuals intended there.
Also Yes I think if they do not work they do not eat. Why should a criminal be treated better than a homeless person? A/C is not a necessity of life. Folks lived a long time without it and I consider it a luxury and not a necessity. Medical care. Again I say why should a criminal be treated better than our poor and homeless?? We should be giving the poor and homeless free medical care before we give it to an inmate. The inmate should have to work for his food and care. Especially since some inmates do things to themselves to get themselves medical care and be in the hospital. I have seen it before. I still say the criminals seem to have far more rights than the civilian does anymore. Heck if your resisting arrest you need the crap beat out of you, but the police cannot do their job anymore because if they use the slightest force to subdue a criminal then they get in trouble not the criminal.
Now to the death penalty issue. Why spend the money to keep them alive when we know they did something?? When it is not based on he said she said BS? It is cheaper to just end it and move on. I am sorry I value civilized life more than I do those who choose not to be civilized. I know I am not perfect myself, but I am not going to be doing something that will result in the death penalty either. Now don't think I am for just killing everyone. Heck that would be absurd, but if you killed someone and it was not an accident then off with your head. If your out raping and mooning Innocent women and children. Off with your head. We don't need you or your gene pool in our nation. Again I say the consequences for our actions are not severe enough any more.
I do agree with you that the laws are screwed up too, but it is a double edged sword where both sides are sharp. It is not just the laws it is other things as well.
I do not agree with your statement that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. If you have Harsh punishments they act as better deterrents then the woosie ones we have now. I bet you no one would want to get caught for stealing if they were to take a finger or a hand if caught. I bet you people would not vandalize stuff if they knew they would get 20 lashings with a bamboo staff. As it stands now the crime is worth the risk of the punishment in a lot of cases so people still commit the crimes. If the punishment was far worse than not committing the crime then people would not commit it. Since it would not be worth the punishment.
Clint I also believe that EST covered this already, but a WMD is not just a nuke bro. we did not think Saddam had nukes, but we know he had Anthrax and other bio-weapons at one point in time. Like Bruce said we got him those things. I can see why we are hated, but it is just like the racial war going on over here. We still have a lot of folks wanting whites to be held accountable for what our ancestors did. It cannot work that way. I nor anyone else for that matter can be held responsible for those that kept slaves. Just like we should not be held responsible for what our past government did behind the scenes.
The fact of the matter is neither side is right in this fight. The Jihadist keep pushing and we keep pushing back. I don't have an answer. I wish I did, but in a world where it is survival of the fittest a sure fire way to end it is to get rid of the competition, and I sure as heck would want my country to be victorious. So be as barbaric as it may sound. Since I do not think they are just going to put down there arms and forgive and forget. Then they must be forced to.
One last thing. I find this rather funny.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Thank god in today's society in america we do not cut off fingers.
If we cut off body parts for crimes my nose would be gone a long time ago. Many times over.
Ok, Ok. I was wrong on the WMD's.
The stuff about prison being better then being homeless, well, let's provide more aid to the homeless instead of fighting a war we can't win. Let's get universal healthcare. Lets legalize pot so the prisons aren't full. Let's fix new orleans up. We have the money, we're just wasting it in Iraq. And why don't we ever hear about Afghanistan anymore? What's going on over there?
They are in a civil war. I say let them figure it out for themselves. We toppled the regime but we also set up a new "democracy". Let them kill each other and eventually it'll reach an equilibrium and they will have enough of it. We can nurture them and do what we can through aid and diplomacy. We can have spies and stop firing all the gay translators. We can take down terrorists in a SAFE way.
If we cut off body parts for crimes my nose would be gone a long time ago. Many times over.
Ok, Ok. I was wrong on the WMD's.
The stuff about prison being better then being homeless, well, let's provide more aid to the homeless instead of fighting a war we can't win. Let's get universal healthcare. Lets legalize pot so the prisons aren't full. Let's fix new orleans up. We have the money, we're just wasting it in Iraq. And why don't we ever hear about Afghanistan anymore? What's going on over there?
They are in a civil war. I say let them figure it out for themselves. We toppled the regime but we also set up a new "democracy". Let them kill each other and eventually it'll reach an equilibrium and they will have enough of it. We can nurture them and do what we can through aid and diplomacy. We can have spies and stop firing all the gay translators. We can take down terrorists in a SAFE way.
Finch
Whats it to ya?
It is not up to you to decide what should or should not be done to them. Homeless people do not have the means to get the stuff that is available to incarcerated individuals. That’s like saying other people are starving, so we should starve these people too because those other people are BETTER than these, so they should get worse treatment BECAUSE. Not to mention you totally ignore the complexities of the situation you are promoting. What i someone is injured or unable to work? what if someone, for whatever reason, is unable to complete a specific task? Do they then STARVE? Survival of the people who are able to do what we need of them logic is dangerous.[b said:
Boo- hoo that means we cant beat them anymore, what a loss[b said:
Do you even watch shows about prison? Whatever force is necessary to get the job done, no more, no less. Law enforcement officers do not get in trouble for doing what is necessary to protect themselves or the public – or other inmates, for that matter. As a individual in state or federal care, they have a right to be treated and fed regardless of what they did, because they are totally dependant on the system for their sustenance.Ok to keep this post smaller Im not going to qoute outsiders.
First yes he should be tried for war crimes, he made a decision to attack Iraq based on intellegence that was wrong. He should have further investigated his intellegence. WMD dont just spring up over night, if he had good intel he should have further investigated it to make sure it was accurate before moving. Thousands of lives were lost over bad intellegence doesnt this say something about the quality of his intellegence? And why havent we seen this intellegence. Dont we as the people have a right to see it. There is no reason to keep it classifed since Saddam is gone and Iraq is in chaos.
We can send a cruise missle and hit a doorway we could have waited until he wasnt around civilians. Not to mention assasination is illegal by international law, so another crime commited here.
The not caring about civilians was just a cheap shot and you know it and I find that highly offensive. Supporting the liberation of Palestine is actully supporting saving lives look at the number of Palestinians killed vs. nuber of Isrealis killed by the other its about 8:1 so I would be supporting saving lives by getting Isreal to leave. Also it was Hezbollah not Hammas that was fighting in Lebanon that we sent more bombs for which proves you have no clue about what your arguing here.
as for the cave comment I dont think i need to show any evidence that we removed the Iraqi government by force. If you havent seen information on it you have been ignoring pretty much every news organization on earth.
Although the patriot act hasent affected me personally it still violates my rights under the constitution. If you allow liberty to be eroded even the slightest it will continue to be lost. Im sure the Germans in the early 1930's said its only the jews losing their rights and look where that got them. You have to be vilgilent to maintain your rights or they will be lost. Im not paranoid I just feel that the bill of rights is important.
When did I say I supported Iran's Nuclear program. I dont think anybody should have nuclear weapons I just think we need to deal with all countries on earth the same way not picking and choosing who we want to threaten.
And yes many of the points to related to the military commissons act of 2006 showing just how illegal it is. It violates that many laws and destroys that many personal liberties. Its very illegal just like the patriot act.
So you support us being an isolated little island. No international trade, no traveling, no economy. We cant be isolated not in the current world climate. Thats why Russia has so many problems, they dont deal with the world well. Do you want to end up like Russia, I know I dont. Also this seems to me like they are with drawing from an organization that could hold them resposible for the crimes they have commited of course the administration wants to get away from them.
And lasty, my hated of Bush is not based on his support of Isreal. I have Isreali friends who support Isreal and although I disagree with them I dont hate them. Also if this was the issue why am I not calling for all of congress to be impeached. They vote on the budget every year including all the money that goes to support Isreal, but I am not calling for them to be removed. I made my points about why I feel bush should be removed, infact more critical to my opinion on this is his violation of the constitution. In my opinion a violation of the constitution should mandate someone be removed from office. The constitution is supposed to be the highest law of the land and no president should violate it for any reason and anyone who tries in my opinion is overstepping their rights and is trying to seize power.
First yes he should be tried for war crimes, he made a decision to attack Iraq based on intellegence that was wrong. He should have further investigated his intellegence. WMD dont just spring up over night, if he had good intel he should have further investigated it to make sure it was accurate before moving. Thousands of lives were lost over bad intellegence doesnt this say something about the quality of his intellegence? And why havent we seen this intellegence. Dont we as the people have a right to see it. There is no reason to keep it classifed since Saddam is gone and Iraq is in chaos.
We can send a cruise missle and hit a doorway we could have waited until he wasnt around civilians. Not to mention assasination is illegal by international law, so another crime commited here.
The not caring about civilians was just a cheap shot and you know it and I find that highly offensive. Supporting the liberation of Palestine is actully supporting saving lives look at the number of Palestinians killed vs. nuber of Isrealis killed by the other its about 8:1 so I would be supporting saving lives by getting Isreal to leave. Also it was Hezbollah not Hammas that was fighting in Lebanon that we sent more bombs for which proves you have no clue about what your arguing here.
as for the cave comment I dont think i need to show any evidence that we removed the Iraqi government by force. If you havent seen information on it you have been ignoring pretty much every news organization on earth.
Although the patriot act hasent affected me personally it still violates my rights under the constitution. If you allow liberty to be eroded even the slightest it will continue to be lost. Im sure the Germans in the early 1930's said its only the jews losing their rights and look where that got them. You have to be vilgilent to maintain your rights or they will be lost. Im not paranoid I just feel that the bill of rights is important.
When did I say I supported Iran's Nuclear program. I dont think anybody should have nuclear weapons I just think we need to deal with all countries on earth the same way not picking and choosing who we want to threaten.
And yes many of the points to related to the military commissons act of 2006 showing just how illegal it is. It violates that many laws and destroys that many personal liberties. Its very illegal just like the patriot act.
So you support us being an isolated little island. No international trade, no traveling, no economy. We cant be isolated not in the current world climate. Thats why Russia has so many problems, they dont deal with the world well. Do you want to end up like Russia, I know I dont. Also this seems to me like they are with drawing from an organization that could hold them resposible for the crimes they have commited of course the administration wants to get away from them.
And lasty, my hated of Bush is not based on his support of Isreal. I have Isreali friends who support Isreal and although I disagree with them I dont hate them. Also if this was the issue why am I not calling for all of congress to be impeached. They vote on the budget every year including all the money that goes to support Isreal, but I am not calling for them to be removed. I made my points about why I feel bush should be removed, infact more critical to my opinion on this is his violation of the constitution. In my opinion a violation of the constitution should mandate someone be removed from office. The constitution is supposed to be the highest law of the land and no president should violate it for any reason and anyone who tries in my opinion is overstepping their rights and is trying to seize power.
[b said:
If you're not doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about! Mind if I search your car? Your person? Your records? Your home? You have nothing to hide, so you wont mind- right?
"If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have anything to worry about" is a dangerous idea.
"Come on, it's not like it'll ever happen to you, there's so many other people." is like saying "Well, I've never had to go through the court system, and I probably never will, so I don't care if they get rid of my right to due process, a speedy trial, or my miranda rights."
The problem isn't that they will, but that they can.
Agreed. Back to Saddam, like him or not having the witness' taunt him as he was being led to the noose and the guards secretly video the execution with their cell-phones then releasing it and worst-of-all, some witness' dacing around his body is distasteful.
It seems this trial was more about vengance than justice... and the execution was handled in a very unprofessional way unbecoming of a legitamite government.
It seems this trial was more about vengance than justice... and the execution was handled in a very unprofessional way unbecoming of a legitamite government.
Finch
Whats it to ya?
Oh, and a quick note as well- what is falsely being characterized as a "civil war" in Iraq is, to the best of my understanding, actually now pretty much officially a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis (Dubyas pals)
I honestly believe that Saddams execution had 2 purposes- first, the US complicity in Saddams actions through the 80's could have gotten a few folks in trouble, so taking him out, all he knew died with him...
And second, the "civil war" would likely intensify, giving the US a sort of "out". The Saudis and Iran are funneling money and arms into the country and their respective factions are well represented throughout
In the end, Iraq will likely be split between the two, and since the house of Bush and house of Saud are real close, the original intent of owning at least part of Iraq will also be realized by proxy, in this case Saudi Arabia. That is what will happen, there is pretty much nothing that can be done to stop it, but the notion of "civil war" is a propaganda tool and nothing more, it is an actual war between age-old enemies, and the US role seems to have been merely to make it possible without much international intervention.
And agreed with finch and quoque, the execution itself was a shameful joke- the fact that George Bush said "fair trial" 3 times in the first 3 consecutive sentences of his "statement" is the first clue, and the fact that the US wrote the constitution and set up the courts means that no matter how much the administration insists to the contrary, it was the US who "tried", "convicted" AND executed him
I honestly believe that Saddams execution had 2 purposes- first, the US complicity in Saddams actions through the 80's could have gotten a few folks in trouble, so taking him out, all he knew died with him...
And second, the "civil war" would likely intensify, giving the US a sort of "out". The Saudis and Iran are funneling money and arms into the country and their respective factions are well represented throughout
In the end, Iraq will likely be split between the two, and since the house of Bush and house of Saud are real close, the original intent of owning at least part of Iraq will also be realized by proxy, in this case Saudi Arabia. That is what will happen, there is pretty much nothing that can be done to stop it, but the notion of "civil war" is a propaganda tool and nothing more, it is an actual war between age-old enemies, and the US role seems to have been merely to make it possible without much international intervention.
And agreed with finch and quoque, the execution itself was a shameful joke- the fact that George Bush said "fair trial" 3 times in the first 3 consecutive sentences of his "statement" is the first clue, and the fact that the US wrote the constitution and set up the courts means that no matter how much the administration insists to the contrary, it was the US who "tried", "convicted" AND executed him
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Lol haha.
As far as witnesses taunting him, lmao! I would have done the same thing! I think it's hilarious! And you guys remember how one of the balifs or guards or whatever totally smiled at him when they issued his death sentence? LMAO! I don't have any sympathy for him! He's a monster! I don't think he deserved the death penalty (life in prison is more torturous, especially for someone like him IMO) but I still applaud those guys for making his death even more miserable and indignified!
SCREW HIM!
As far as witnesses taunting him, lmao! I would have done the same thing! I think it's hilarious! And you guys remember how one of the balifs or guards or whatever totally smiled at him when they issued his death sentence? LMAO! I don't have any sympathy for him! He's a monster! I don't think he deserved the death penalty (life in prison is more torturous, especially for someone like him IMO) but I still applaud those guys for making his death even more miserable and indignified!
SCREW HIM!
Fun fact: This picture is from December 1983, about a year after the event for which he was hanged:
That's Rummy greeting Saddam by the way. We didn't hate Saddam then.
Did it strike anyone else as odd that Hussein seemed to be hanged by a disorganized group of hooded thugs in some back room somewhere? Is that the image we want to give about what we bring to the table in Iraq?
Capslock
That's Rummy greeting Saddam by the way. We didn't hate Saddam then.
Did it strike anyone else as odd that Hussein seemed to be hanged by a disorganized group of hooded thugs in some back room somewhere? Is that the image we want to give about what we bring to the table in Iraq?
Capslock
JB_OrchidGuy
Cardiac Nurse
Caps I have to agree with you there. It did look like a back room hanging.
I wonder if it was all an act and Saddam is not really dead. Talk about a conspiracy theory.
Here is my responce to the inmate issue. As far as I am concerned once your an inmate you loose all your rights until you have paid your debt to society. So with that said I do not feel they are entitled to anything. They should be required to pay for the food they eat like in the AZ tent prison. Granted it is only like 5 cent for a peice of baloni orwhatnot. They are not inflated prices, but they dohave to pay for it. They earn money when they work. They wouldn't be there if they were not committing a crime so I have no remorse for them. If you are sick and cannot work then you go into debt with the state. No one should starve, but they shouldn't have a free ride either.
I am done with the capital punishment issue. I still think if you deserve it then off with your head.
The Irac situation is just all screwed up I haven't a clue anymore.
We all need to band together and get term limits for Congress people.
I wonder if it was all an act and Saddam is not really dead. Talk about a conspiracy theory.
Here is my responce to the inmate issue. As far as I am concerned once your an inmate you loose all your rights until you have paid your debt to society. So with that said I do not feel they are entitled to anything. They should be required to pay for the food they eat like in the AZ tent prison. Granted it is only like 5 cent for a peice of baloni orwhatnot. They are not inflated prices, but they dohave to pay for it. They earn money when they work. They wouldn't be there if they were not committing a crime so I have no remorse for them. If you are sick and cannot work then you go into debt with the state. No one should starve, but they shouldn't have a free ride either.
I am done with the capital punishment issue. I still think if you deserve it then off with your head.
The Irac situation is just all screwed up I haven't a clue anymore.
We all need to band together and get term limits for Congress people.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Candidates can pay for a serious campaign either by selling out to big money or by having plenty of their own. Or, too often, both. Wall Street doesn't give a rat's *** about gay marriage, but does care a lot about things like tax policy and globalization. That's why candidates sound remarkably alike on those issues and prefer to distract us with heated arguments over social issues.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
You know all this reminds me of Amerika by Rammstein (WHO ROCK !!!)
It's like if you don't please the american empire you're going to be struck down. It's kind of like we are so comfortable at every other country's expense. It's like we spread out influence like a disease and by the time anyone notices, they are already drinking coke and eating big macs. Look at the japanese culture. They eat up anything western they can like it's crack. Look at anime. Most of the anime characters look 100% american/westernized.I think the prime minister of india once said something along the lines of "Accept the authority of the pentagon and lose your freedom, or accept the authority of Hollywood and lose your culture"
It's like if you don't please the american empire you're going to be struck down. It's kind of like we are so comfortable at every other country's expense. It's like we spread out influence like a disease and by the time anyone notices, they are already drinking coke and eating big macs. Look at the japanese culture. They eat up anything western they can like it's crack. Look at anime. Most of the anime characters look 100% american/westernized.I think the prime minister of india once said something along the lines of "Accept the authority of the pentagon and lose your freedom, or accept the authority of Hollywood and lose your culture"
Coke and a Big Mac isn't American culture or Western Culture; it's corporate culture. It just gets named after us because we were the first to fall under its spell. We let national brand names like Coke and Big Mac (and NASCAR and thousands of other trademarked names) kill off the local and regional options we once had. Ronald McDonald should have been hanged next to Hussein.
