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this is the reason for my rant..............

  • #21
The "Wild West" term is just a manner of speech, I'm all for CCW, just saying I can see the reasons people would be afraid of it.
 
  • #22
quogue.............i realize that i was taking it as a particular period of time for a particular portion of the US................nothing more, but my statement stands.......most any run down part of LA, DC or Detroit would put you in more danger of catching a bullet than walking down the street in Dodge City or Tuscon in the late 1800's
 
  • #23
Generally speaking, an armed society is a polite society.
However, I know an awful lot of people I would not feel comfortable around if I knew they were armed...unless, of course, I was armed.
 
  • #24
However, I know an awful lot of people I would not feel comfortable around if I knew they were armed...unless, of course, I was armed.

Of course then you have a much greater chance of one of you winding up dead. Sounds like its more problems and a bullet is not the solution
 
  • #25
point of fact for Lauderdale, as long as he is legally able to own a hand gun, can carry one concealed. Florida is a "shall issue" state which means if you are legally able to own a handgun you are legally able to carry it concealed without getting a permit so long as you are a resident of Florida. so Finch.......if they are already allowed to carry a concealed weapon if they choose, by your way of thinking one of them should be dead by now.........


EDIT: in the process of putting together my long arse post, ive discovered something wrong whith what i said above...........you are required to have a concealed carry permit in Florida however Florida law says basically that if you are legally able to own a hand gun you can get a concealed carry permit with minimal problems. infact its a very simple and straight forward process...................unlike some other states where while they do have concealed carry permits availible its almost impossible to obtain one...................sorry for any confussion i may have caused.................i now return you back to your regularly scheduled programing...........
 
  • #26
no, thats not what i said.I said that their chances of living if they had gotten into a scuffle would be much less if they both had guns. By your way of thinking .... you contorted it into that they "should be dead by now" or anything similar was not even close to what i said
 
  • #27
My statement was meant a bit in jest. I have a very diverse group of friends, some of whom are great people but just a wee bit unstable and I get nervous just riding in a car with them.

However, since I take my "right to bear arms" seriously, if I see trouble brewing with an armed person I would leave the area and notify law enforcement. Shooting someone is serious business and I hate the expense of having to hire a lawyer and the time wasted in court trying to explain the situation to a judge.

Shooting a man, even if he deserves it, is still not a llegal defense in the State of Florida.
 
  • #28
Finch, you seem to assume that just because someone has a firearm that they are required to use it. ive had a gun pulled on me before by someone who was carrying a concealed fire arm illegally, the person was also fairly drunk. his buddies talked him down before it came to anything. at this particular point in time i happened to be fishing with some buddies at a spot on the river that turned out to be someones favorite party spot. i was outside of cell phone coverage as well as prolly being a good 20 minute from the nearest cop. i was also on public property(state lands) that i was on legally.

i just assume that everyone is carrying a weapon be it gun or knife. mainly because at the very least most everyone is carrying a pocket knife around here, hell the one i got i use most everyday at work. i dont worry about Joe Blow that pays his taxes on time every year and works a 9-5 job at the office, the chances of the average guy shooting someone even if he is carrying a gun 24-7 is next to nothing. the issue is the same has its been since man came out of caves. some SOB's are not going to pay attention to the laws. they dont care if its illegal to do something, they are the ones you have to worry about because they have no reguard for the rules. these are the ppl who kill ppl. these ppl are the reason i think its better to be carrying a gun than not to. because reguardless of what the law says they arent going to follow it.
 
  • #29
Hell even my mother has a concealed weapon permit.

People who carry a concealed weapon hope they don't ever need it.
 
  • #30
Finch, you seem to assume that just because someone has a firearm that they are required to use it. ive had a gun pulled on me before by someone who was carrying a concealed fire arm illegally, the person was also fairly drunk. his buddies talked him down before it came to anything.

Well thank god for that. Hopefully there are always some buddies around to talk people into putting their gun away.

xvart.
 
  • #31
raised my heart rate and bp for a bit but came out of it none the worse for ware. just usually haul one of my rifles with me any more, with the occasional rabid skunk that is run across around here its not a bad idea anyways. the individual i spoke of is now in jail for other issues. firearms are a fact of life in the US. you are not going to get rid of them with any amount of legislation cause the criminals will not turn over their guns. in such a case i would rather be armed.
 
  • #32
Well I have stayed away from this debate till now because I really dont have any real facts and figures to back up a solid argument.

Personally I am indifferent to gun control. I do not own one and probably never will. However I would like to know that should I ever change my mind, that I would be able to buy one if I choose. That said, I see absolutely NO reason why it should be legal, or necessary, to be able to purchase clips that hold 30 rounds of ammo for home defence. I see NO reason why it should be legal to carry a fully automatic AK-47 with a 200 round clip to hunt deer. I see no reason why a 23 year old kid should be able to buy boxes of hollowpoint bullets. THESE are the kinds of things that have no value in society and do not belong on our streets. These are not meant for "Hunting" or "Home Defence". These are tools designed with ONE purpose in mind. To maximize the killing effiency of the weapon. They dont belong in our streets and they dont belong in the hands of our citizens, be them law abiding or not.

Steve
 
  • #33
Actually that makes you "for" Gun Control.
The Second Amendment is so that Citizens will have the same Firearms as the Gov't.
For reasons such as mobilizing Citizens in order to protect the Country or if our Gov't becomes Corrupt and Abusive or slides into a Monarchy we will be able to rise and have another Revolution. That is what this Country has been founded on.
It's not about Hunting "Priviledges" it's about standing up for this Great Nation and answering the call to Freedom.
Sounds Hokey?
There are those of us who still stand by these values believe it or not.

"Oh who's gonna invade us? Canada or Mexico?"
No but 50 yrs down the line, maybe China or Persia.
Chavez takes over South America and the Caribbean? Possible.
I say preserve our Freedoms not just for us now, but our Children in the Future.

I know I'll get the Kook label from this. Better that than the Sheeple one.

Target Shooting at the Range Today equals Marksmanship on the Field Tomorrow.
 
  • #34
Steve let me break down some of your arguments:

#1 the Second amendment has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with hunting. it has everything to do with keeping citizens armed and the government inline, thats what the founding fathers intended, see my signature line.

That said, I see absolutely NO reason why it should be legal, or necessary, to be able to purchase clips that hold 30 rounds of ammo for home defence. I see NO reason why it should be legal to carry a fully automatic AK-47 with a 200 round clip to hunt deer.

in order to own a fully automatic firearm legally you have to register it with the federal government. it costs $200 per firearm(its actually a tax) and go though one hell of a background check. also more than a few states will not allow you to own one. California being one of them. that said i can point you to the largest hunting and firearms internet forum on the net and you will quickly find that fully auto firearms and 30(let alone 200) round clips are pretty well almost never used for hunting though they are occationally used for target shooting. i know of a few who use semi-auto AR-15's for hunting however most of these use 5 or 10 round clips because 30 rounders are an absolute pain in the arse and hang up on things.

I see no reason why a 23 year old kid should be able to buy boxes of hollowpoint bullets.

do you know what hollow point bullets even are? they have no real bearing in the effectiveness of killing a person. infact i cant think of one that will penetrate ballistic vest. hollow points might improve the effectiveness a tad bit and i know alot of police forces are using them but they are using them to help insure the bullet stays in the person they shoot and not zipping through to hit an innocent bystander. most hand gun hunters use revolvers firing hard cast lead bullets that dont expand, if hollowpoints were so much more effective in the killing of critters in the 200 pound class, more handgun hunters would be using them. i use ALOT of hollow point bullets this time of year, why? because they open up fast which is grat on critters up to about the 20 pounds or so which is what the average coyote around here runs, they also work great on the lil 2 pound ground squirrels. however i dont use them on deer unless you call the Barnes X bullet a hollow point because superficially it resembles one but in reality it is a semi solid.
 
  • #35
BTW it should be noted only once has a LEGAL fully automatic weapon been used in the commission of a crime by a private citizen since they were "outlawed" in the 20's. that weapon was used by an off duty police officer. all fully automatic firearms you have seen on the 6 o'clock news being used in the commission of a crime were illegal, they either were not registered(in other words smuggled into the country) or were converted from a semi automatic firearm, a practice that if discovered by the ATF guarantees you jail time.
 
  • #36
Beat me to it Rattler.. now my $.002

You won't be able to get an "Assault Rifle" (as they like to call them) because you live in California and they've been unconstitutionally banned there anyway.
Full Auto you need to live in a Class III friendly State and have the Class III Paperwork for your Firearm.
There is no such thing as a 200 rd. Clip. Belt yes, Clip or Drum. No.
Hollow Points are actually good for Home Defence because they splatter against hard targets such as walls lessoning the risk of hitting unintended targets.
like your Neighbors.
Carry these things in the Streets will get you in big trouble, you're right they don't belong in the middle of the street waving em around like a hoodlum.

Not trying to be a jerk, just sayin what I gotta say on the subject....

That said, I think it was one of the Forefathers who said "Hunting makes for good Practice"
 
  • #37
BTW the term clip is wrong if your going to get technical. its a magazine, the last rifle to use a clip was the M1 Garand. while i havent seen 200 round drum magazines i have seen 150 round ones was giving Steve the benifit of the doubt that they might exist
 
  • #38
whoops ive lied, there have been 2 murders commited with legally owned fully automatic firearms since 1934

On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.

the other can be found here http://members.cox.net/arporro/photos/Shooting.pdf

In Targeting Guns, Kleck cites the director of BATF testifying before Congress that he knew of less than ten crimes that were committed with legally owned machine guns (no time period was specified). Kleck says these crimes could have been nothing more than violations of gun regulations such as failure to notify BATF after moving a registered gun between states.
 
  • #39
Right on, stumbled with the clip/mag buisiness. Although SKS's and M14/M1A's can be loaded with Stripper Clips as well.
Haven't seen 150 rd drums, seen the Chinese 100 f/ the AK. I own the 75 rd Rumanian.
Come to think of it, the Beta-C's are 200 aren't they?
 
  • #40
Hollowpoint bullets are designed to expand once inside of the target body. Therby shredding the meat, leaving bits of shrapenel behind and genarally causing massive internal bleeding and injury. Obviously a hunter would not want this as blood taints the meat.

That same trait that makes them so visciously lethal is the exact same trait which prevents them from penetrating body armor. Kevlar fiber (and other fiber based) bullet resistant clothing is designed to flatten the bullet upon impact and not allow the bullet to tear through the fibers as it normally would regular clothing. Hollowpoints actually make those vests even more effective.

Now I am not "Anti-gun". I am not here to change your mind or argue with anybody about their rights. I am a hunter, I have no particular problem with killing animals (or people) for food or personal protection. I have a very nice compound bow which I use for hunting that is quite lethal when used properly. I could drop you and your bulletproof vest in your tracks if I were put in that position.

Now, the second ammendment was written in what 1791? Todays society is well beyond what the founding fathers had ever remotely dreamed of. In the time when the ammendment was written there was a very real chance of a sneak invasion from a foriegn power. Today, NOBODY is going to invade anybody by surprise. If say China were to mobilize a force against the US to invade, how long do you think it would take before we knew about it? It would probably be broadcast all over the internet before the first soldier got his bootlaces tied. Why is it necessary for citizens to have such lethal weapons in their homes or on their person at all times?

The text of the second ammendment reads: "Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "

A well regulated Militia... In my view.. a scattering of unknown citizens with guns, sprinkled across the country, is not what I would call "well regulated". Why can't the militia have cache's of weapons stored within easy reach in an emergency, where citizens can freely attain and use them in an invasion type situation but keep them off the streets and out of the hands of potential abusers, in peacetime? A "well regulated militia" would have training programs and designated supervised target shooting facilities that would be available to educate and train people who want to take advantage of it. IMO owning a basement full of rifles and using them to see how big a splatter can be made out of a woodchuck is not "well regulated"

Now I am going to single you out here Rattler because I know you are going to point out that you live wayyy out in BFE.. you need your guns at your own home cause you would be too far away from a cache' in the event of emergency.. blah blah.. The very fact that you do live out in the sticks means that if we are invaded, you and your guns will be little or no value to the country as a militia man. Again, the arguement over needing a ready militia is moot in that circumstance.

There are better ways to protect America and our way of life than to allow the uncontrolled dispersion of those types of military-intended weapons.

Steve
 
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