all i can say is...............WOW.........

[Clint]

Give them what they want, they deserve it lol.

Of course it's no excuse to rely on the government and settle for the minimum.

 

[Av8tor1]

AV- again I am not arguing one colonial occupier is better than another. I am saying that the effects of the Ottoman empire on the modern condition of the Middle East is not nearly as important as the powers of Western Europe as colonial occupiers. In fact I see little relevance in bring up the Ottoman empire in this discussion. Yes they were in the region but so were the Romans, the Mongols, etc, and they were not mentioned.

Ktulu,

my point is your statements are in part based upon your opinion, and the opinion of those people whom were replaced by the culture that is there now would more then likely say the same thing about the Ottomans and Islam... nothing more, history is written by the victorious

had WW1 been won by the Ottoman empire and the Austrian- Hungarians, then this argument would have totally different parameters

had Britain not helped the Ottomans during the great Napoleonic wars,

WWII,

the Franco Prussian war... etc etc etc

you imply that the west is so terrible, and yet the western powers have time and time again come to the aid of so many... was it purely out of the goodness of their hearts... of course not... that is not the point,

you talk about inept leaders after WWII, and yet you fail to mention the millions or so that died so others may live, or the total collapse of anything close to civilization after the long years of war, there was so little left to work with, what was left of infrastructure, of economies, of intellect, of anything for that matter... It baffles me how can you make such a statement

To me your argument is just as biased as I am sure mine is to you, we each see the world through different eyes

to be honest, I did not agree with going into Iraq from day one... I firmly believe in the Powell doctrine, Somalia and Lebanon was still fresh to me... but that is now best left for historians to argue, but if we just pull out and leave.... IMHO it will make Darfur or the killing fields of Cambodia look like a Sunday picnic and will ignite a regional Sunni/Shiite conflict

so basically, we're screwed for many years to come with no easy answers, but it sure is easy to just blame the west

I respect your opinion, I respect your right to voice it, but unfortunately these freedoms come with a heavy price, usually western blood and treasure

 

[Clint]

Yeah I don't think the middle eastern leaders have done squat for anyone else. Didn't like, the Ayatollah hate America and overthrow an Iranian Shah on an anti-American revolution? Didn't he later get cancer and come over to the US for treatment? I guess people hate us until they need our technologies.

For the record, nationalism SUCKS!

EDIT: No, I think the kind of Saudi Arabia (How pretentious to name a country after your family...) offered the NY mayor some money to help with something.. but was turned down. I don't think that offsets the royal family living in BEYOND lavish surroundings with their people are dirt poor as hell.

 

[ktulu]

Av8tor- I never said the west was terrible. I said the west did some terrible things in the middle east. There is a big differnce between doing horrible things and being horrible. I have dont bad things in my life Im not proud of, just as you probably have, we all have, does that make us all bad people? I dont believe so. Should Germany just forget the whole Holocaust thing because the German people have done many good things since then? I dont think so, just as I dont think the US and other Western nations should forget the mistakes they made in the middle east. If we refuse to learn from our mistakes then we will repeat them. Iraq is a perfect example of that. I am also well aware of the fact that the west does many good things around the world. If there is a natural disaster anywhere in the world who is the first to respond? The American Red Cross. Again does this mean we should forget the bad things we have done in the past? NO.

As for you assuming I am not aware of the sacrafices made by people in WWII I have to tell you that is just wrong and honestly infurating. I have helped collect first hand accounts of people who served in WWII. My own grandfather won the siliver star, 4 purple hearts, and many other awards fighting on the front lines of the North African and European campaigns. So please do not insinuate that I dont not understand the sacrafices many made in that war.

As for the leaders I said that inept leaders were put into place by the western powers and honestly after what they went through I dont blame them. They didnt want to a powerful empire right on the doorstep of Europe they had just finished a very bloody war they didnt want another one. They assigned inept leaders to keep the area weak. This however does not mean we can ignore the consequences of such actions. We need to start learning from the past or we will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Thats all I am saying and I dont think is wrong to say that. I get really sick of this stance many people have that everything we do and have done has been good for the world and that everyone loves the US all over the world. Thats not the way things are we need to face that fact and deal with the world as it is not as we imagine it to be.

 

[Clint]

Yeah I agree. We rarely do anything unless it helps us somehow (not that that is good or bad) and everyone hates us. They hate us because we think they like us

 

[ahughes]

Is there even a thing as a secular Muslim?

Yes. Saddam Hussein was a secular Muslim.

 

[xvart]

Yeah I agree. We rarely do anything unless it helps us somehow (not that that is good or bad) and everyone hates us. They hate us because we think they like us

Yes I completely agree. I wonder what would happen if had a more laze fare* attitude and stopped being the world's police.

Is there even a thing as a secular Muslim?

Yes. Saddam Hussein was a secular Muslim.

Welcome to the forums!

xvart.

 

[Clint]

It's laissez faire It means strict free market and that the government shouldn't interfere with the economy in matters like poverty, inequality, workers rights, etc. Strict economic freedom.

 

[xvart]

It's laissez faire It means strict free market and that the government shouldn't interfere with the economy in matters like poverty, inequality, workers rights, etc. Strict economic freedom.

Okay. Well if we apply that to free market interference to everyday life... lol.

xvart.