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San Francisco considers injection room
Your immaturity supersedes you and shows how fruitless it is to engage in a meaningful debate with you. I honestly haven't studied up on what is illegal and legal in Amsterdam and actually that whole end bit was meant to be a joke. So thank you for correcting me.
My college had a program where drunk students could call a number and get a ride home, no questions asked. This proposal makes me think of that program. Granted, it doesn't really do much to solve the root of the problem. However, it acknowledges there is a problem and works to maybe save a few lives.
I think anyone who has had a friend with a drug or alcohol problem can agree, that it is very, very difficult to get them to admit they have a problem or convince them to seek treatment. In a perfect world I could convince my friend to stop abusing drugs and driving drunk, but I'd be happy to at the very least convince him to use the school's safe ride program, so he doesn't kill himself or somebody else. The proposed injection room, in and of itself, probably won't do anything to curb drug abuse. But maybe a loved one can convince their friend or family member, if they won't quit abusing, to at least do it in a safer setting. Then, once their lives aren't in immediate danger, work on getting them clean.
I think anyone who has had a friend with a drug or alcohol problem can agree, that it is very, very difficult to get them to admit they have a problem or convince them to seek treatment. In a perfect world I could convince my friend to stop abusing drugs and driving drunk, but I'd be happy to at the very least convince him to use the school's safe ride program, so he doesn't kill himself or somebody else. The proposed injection room, in and of itself, probably won't do anything to curb drug abuse. But maybe a loved one can convince their friend or family member, if they won't quit abusing, to at least do it in a safer setting. Then, once their lives aren't in immediate danger, work on getting them clean.
Is it really necessary to post a link such as that on this forum? You know there are some minors that frequent here.
PK - I agree with your attitude for the most part. My whole point (and it is possible I wasn't clear) is that I would rather have ideas to bounce around than just simply denying any alternative ideas; especially in such a young stage. There is a problem and no immediate clear solution that will simply "cure" the hard core drug addiction problem in the US. Again, as I have said, this may not be the best answer; but at least it is providing a possible alternative that could possibly pave the way for an end all be all solution.
My other point is that so many people are quick to pass off radical ideas simply because they don't fall into line with their ideology. I totally respect the fact that "injection rooms" don't align with some people's moral values; but if this "immoral" step happens to pave the way for an actual solution or does provide measurable benefits to the the actual problem it shouldn't merely be dismissed so easily. Some may find my next example irrelevant; but, I think in the context it does have some value. That being, if the cure for cancer or AIDs was discovered by some guy on acid or heroine would that make that process less valuable? I would argue not because even thought the process and method used to discover that solution still addresses the problem in a fashion that I don't necessarily agree with it still gets a solution. A step an any direction is better than no step at all; especially when nobody else is trying to solve the problem or continuing processes that do not have any measurable difference.
I think this is the point, and a very relevant example.
I think the analogy of recognizing a problem is the correct analogy, in my opinion. The point being OF COURSE we shouldn't have to give 14 year olds condoms in school and OF COURSE we shouldn't have to teach 14 year olds about sex education and OF COURSE we shouldn't have to provide drug users safe environments to use drugs; I think everyone can easily agree upon that. The point is that there is a problem, and just saying 14 year olds shouldn't be having sex isn't a solution, since obviously that isn't working. In the meantime, we will try and help the current situation while continuing to prevent the problem. Otherwise, we will still have 14 year olds with babies who have irresponsibly made a decision that will most likely negatively affect the rest of their (and their baby's) lives.
Oh sure, I could figure it out; but, as you talk about meaningful debate, it is nice to see people express and explain their "absolute" opinions instead of just making blanket statements with no explanation. Of course, I consider myself fairly educated so OF COURSE I can easily see where you are coming from; but not everyone is as smart as me.
As is true for the whole end bit of my post.
xvart.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
I'm afraid I can't find humor in that. Maybe that's your immaturity showing? If you haven't researched it (not surprising since you didn't read the original article before opening your mouth) then you should not say things like this. I've always said you're not a funny person outsiders, it's best to not try and make jokes when you're the only one who's laughing.
I'll post whatever I please, as you seem to do the same when it comes to your religious material. Yes there are minors on these boards, with myself being one of them. Guess what, outsiders? Minors do drugs and the ones that do need to be safe. It's called harm reduction. It's called not having unrealistic expectations and realizing that the world isn't squeaky clean and realizing you can't do anything about it because it doesn't necessarily need to be "fixed". I'm not going to refrain from posting something that's not against the rules of this forum that just might save their lives just because you seem to have a problem with it. I don't complain when you post your links to religious material, and before you say "my links and yours aren't the same at all!" I can easily argue that your material is just as dangerous to an impressionable, juvenile mind as you claim mine can be.
Here it is again. Dance safe kids.
http://www.dancesafe.org/
Explain how what I posted was immature and then step back and look at your last couple posts.
You know what is surprising? Before I even read the article I came to the conclusion that: There's a clinic being built for drug abusers, where drug abusers can legally abuse hard drugs under the supervision of a nurse. No treatment plans are offered except when you OD. After I read the article, the conclusion is still the same.
Where in the forum rules does it say I have to make you laugh? I'm not a jester for your entertainment.
Where do you derive your logic from, seriously? How is posting an article in defense of my POV that deals with God equate to posting a link that supports abusing drugs?
I don't know the exact forum rules but I'm sure Andy does not want people posting pro-drug abuse or supporting using drugs on this forum. He can correct me if I'm wrong.
The majority of people can actually enjoy life without having to abuse drugs. You can only run and hide from reality for so long before it catches up with you.
Oh and BTW the above link breaks the following forum rule:
"No links that lead to sites with sexual and/or violent content are allowed."
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Your joking about overdosing and making things up. To me, that's immature. Call me crazy....
My link is not about saying "Hey! Do drugs!" My link is about saying "If you're going to do drugs, please be safe." It even supports talking to your parents about drugs. Would you rather people not be safe, outsiders? And once again, you're assuming all people who use drugs have to do so to enjoy life, and that they're hiding from reality. You're assumptions are huge. As far as your religiously-bias material, I can easily say that's just as poisonous to a young mind as any drug can be. Look at the harm religion and the religious have done. One could say religion is a drug for some people..... One could say some people are entirely dependent on pie in the sky thoughts and the prospect of an invisible utopia instead of living in the real world and trying to find real world solutions to real world problems.
I looked up the keyword of "sex" on that site. In response, I only got things like "safe sex" "safer sex" "be careful" blah blah. It's Dandy's forum and if he doesn't want a link promoting safety, I'd be glad to remove it without question.
And I believe they are PK I wasn't speaking to anyone in this conversation in particular, and believe it or not we've got people younger than me here (I know, hard to believe!) The bottom line is people are going to do arguably stupid things, and if they are going to do it they NEED to be safe! Look at the fake ecstasy a while back. If people had testing reagents, there would have been fewer deaths. If people talk about stuff like this with their parents, instead of seeing everything in black and white, maybe the world would be a better place. I know I feel much better with my parents after laying it out on the table and being honest and telling them that they and I both know that I'm going to do and what I want to do once I became 18 , and they were glad I told them even though they highly disapprove. I'm lucky to have parents that tell me if I ever get into trouble and need a ride or something, they'll help me out no questions asked. Of course they HIGHLY disapprove but at least there's a line of communication. Nothing good ever comes from sweeping an issue under the rug and hoping it will go away. It's called harm reduction, not elimination.
I'd also like to say that while I almost never agree with outsiders, and while we both have strong stances on the opposite side of the fence, I genuinely don't dislike him. I can't comprehend how he thinks the way he does, and I'm sure he must feel the same way towards me, but I DO respect his opinion even though I feel it's unfortunate. It's possible to have respect without liking, and in fact whilst detesting, an opinion (or 5 or 12.. ) Not on ALL opinions of course. Not on racism and the like.... but this one is respectable
My link is not about saying "Hey! Do drugs!" My link is about saying "If you're going to do drugs, please be safe." It even supports talking to your parents about drugs. Would you rather people not be safe, outsiders? And once again, you're assuming all people who use drugs have to do so to enjoy life, and that they're hiding from reality. You're assumptions are huge. As far as your religiously-bias material, I can easily say that's just as poisonous to a young mind as any drug can be. Look at the harm religion and the religious have done. One could say religion is a drug for some people..... One could say some people are entirely dependent on pie in the sky thoughts and the prospect of an invisible utopia instead of living in the real world and trying to find real world solutions to real world problems.
I looked up the keyword of "sex" on that site. In response, I only got things like "safe sex" "safer sex" "be careful" blah blah. It's Dandy's forum and if he doesn't want a link promoting safety, I'd be glad to remove it without question.
And I believe they are PK
I wasn't speaking to anyone in this conversation in particular, and believe it or not we've got people younger than me here (I know, hard to believe!) The bottom line is people are going to do arguably stupid things, and if they are going to do it they NEED to be safe! Look at the fake ecstasy a while back. If people had testing reagents, there would have been fewer deaths. If people talk about stuff like this with their parents, instead of seeing everything in black and white, maybe the world would be a better place. I know I feel much better with my parents after laying it out on the table and being honest and telling them that they and I both know that I'm going to do and what I want to do once I became 18 , and they were glad I told them even though they highly disapprove. I'm lucky to have parents that tell me if I ever get into trouble and need a ride or something, they'll help me out no questions asked. Of course they HIGHLY disapprove but at least there's a line of communication. Nothing good ever comes from sweeping an issue under the rug and hoping it will go away. It's called harm reduction, not elimination. I'd also like to say that while I almost never agree with outsiders, and while we both have strong stances on the opposite side of the fence, I genuinely don't dislike him. I can't comprehend how he thinks the way he does, and I'm sure he must feel the same way towards me, but I DO respect his opinion even though I feel it's unfortunate. It's possible to have respect without liking, and in fact whilst detesting, an opinion (or 5 or 12..
) Not on ALL opinions of course. Not on racism and the like.... but this one is respectable I agree people are going to do stupid stuff no matter what. At my school we have a saferide program to take drunk people home. Though it doesn't totally stop it, it does help a lot, and a lot of people use it. I feel this program is justified because although it does cost money, it saves a lot more in property damages, lawsuits, etc, and also saves 2 or more people's lives. If someone is going to shoot up a bunch of heroin though and overdose in a bathroom somewhere...I can't bring myself to care, especially when my tax dollars are paying for it. I've never really heard of a successful heroin addict, except ones in music, and they all end up dying eventually anyway (except Motley Crue). Arguably, they don't do anything for society (I sure as hell could've lived without Nirvana and Sublime, thats for sure), but think of all the great things drinkers have produced . (Hemingway, Poe, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ulysses S. Grant, Stephen King, all the Kennedys, Capote, Jackson Pollock, all the old country singers like Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, etc). I know a lot of them are writers, but as comedian Dave Attell said, "No one wants to read a book by a pothead writer. It'd be 500 pages on why if you put a hat and glasses on a dog, he looks like he could drive a truck".
. (Hemingway, Poe, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ulysses S. Grant, Stephen King, all the Kennedys, Capote, Jackson Pollock, all the old country singers like Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, etc). I know a lot of them are writers, but as comedian Dave Attell said, "No one wants to read a book by a pothead writer. It'd be 500 pages on why if you put a hat and glasses on a dog, he looks like he could drive a truck".It takes two clicks from the link you provided that leads to sexual content.
This isn't about people being safe, it is about people being stupid. It's an oxymoron to suggest you can safely abuse drugs. The only safe way to abuse drugs is by not doing them in the first place.
Excuse my ignorance, care to show how I'm wrong?
Please list 1 example of my "religiously-bias" material that is dangerous.
I don't call myself a "religious" person nor do I belong to a "religion". I'm a Christian or Christ follower. I believe that there is a God and that He answered His Old Testament promise of a Messiah. His son Jesus Christ was born into human flesh and lived a life of servitude until His death on a cross which redeemed everyone from their sin.
Please do explain how my faith is like a drug.
It's not a link promoting safety, it's a link promoting stupidity.
I don't understand your statement, care to elaborate?
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
I'd be happy to show example of how you're wrong.
The first example is me. I never had to use drugs to be happy, I was happy with or without them. I still am. I kept and keep my grades up and I never hid from reality. Reality is a very nice thing to enjoy. I know many people who are the same way. A person could easily say "Well maybe not 5 years from now....." and I say hypotheticals don't really hold up.
To say that a drug user NEEDS drugs to be happy and that they are ALL hiding from reality is saying all people who enjoy alcohol NEED it to be happy and they are ALL hiding from reality. Why is this? Because alcohol is a drug. And also, not ALL drug users use addictive drugs! COFFEE is MORE addictive than some recreational drugs. Didn't Jesus drink? Jesus took a drug outsiders. There's nothing wrong with that. Alcohol is a drug, it's just legal.
The second example is is Bible. To me, that's self-explanatory but it was written by man and has inspired things of great hatred. A long time ago, some people even said slavery is OK because "It's in the Bible." Need I remind you of the crusades? Religious Christian fanatics? Your faith may not be like a drug, and I may agree with what you said, but I have seen many that positively feed off of it, and then beat themselves up over the littlest things (like porn or gambling or getting drunk) yet at the same time telling others how to live. Hell, my own grandmother is a prime example. I believe she also once threw her daughter out of the house for catching an STD, because she is a religious zealot. Go to a narcotics anonymous meeting sometime and see for yourself how they are replacing one addiction with another.
EDIT: Thanks PK! That's fast! Another great example of religious-inspired damage is Fred Phelps and his clan. We ARE getting off topic though.
The first example is me. I never had to use drugs to be happy, I was happy with or without them. I still am. I kept and keep my grades up and I never hid from reality. Reality is a very nice thing to enjoy. I know many people who are the same way. A person could easily say "Well maybe not 5 years from now....." and I say hypotheticals don't really hold up.
To say that a drug user NEEDS drugs to be happy and that they are ALL hiding from reality is saying all people who enjoy alcohol NEED it to be happy and they are ALL hiding from reality. Why is this? Because alcohol is a drug. And also, not ALL drug users use addictive drugs! COFFEE is MORE addictive than some recreational drugs. Didn't Jesus drink? Jesus took a drug outsiders. There's nothing wrong with that. Alcohol is a drug, it's just legal.
The second example is is Bible. To me, that's self-explanatory but it was written by man and has inspired things of great hatred. A long time ago, some people even said slavery is OK because "It's in the Bible." Need I remind you of the crusades? Religious Christian fanatics? Your faith may not be like a drug, and I may agree with what you said, but I have seen many that positively feed off of it, and then beat themselves up over the littlest things (like porn or gambling or getting drunk) yet at the same time telling others how to live. Hell, my own grandmother is a prime example. I believe she also once threw her daughter out of the house for catching an STD, because she is a religious zealot. Go to a narcotics anonymous meeting sometime and see for yourself how they are replacing one addiction with another.
EDIT: Thanks PK! That's fast! Another great example of religious-inspired damage is Fred Phelps and his clan. We ARE getting off topic though.
Well either you aren't being 100% truthful or you are an anomaly.
That's your skewed version of it. Of course you will think it's hatred because you partake in some things that God says is not holy and we should stay away from.
So you are going to base what the Bible says because of what some people say? Do yourself a favor and research the Bible yourself. Slavery is not tolerated. If it was, then why did God even bother helping Moses and the Israelites when they were slaves of Egypt?
Where does the Bible order something like the crusades? That was man who abused their authority and faith.
Just as bad as those liberal fanatics.
Explain how they positively feed off it? What is wrong with being upset about your personal sin? It leads to repentance and a stronger relationship with God. If you never felt upset about something you wouldn't bother to address it.
Are they really dictating to you how to live or are they suggesting to you there's another way? Maybe you are just intolerant to listening to their POV because it threatens your lifestyle, so you classify them as haters and put no thought to it.
I don't need to go to a NA meeting, I don't abuse drugs.
Clint
Stay chooned in for more!
Anomalies right? Lol, OK. That's a convenient explanation I suppose. To be honest, I always thought of drugs, at least the natural ones (particularly cannabis and mushrooms), as a gift from God and if anything it can bring us closer to him if we so choose. Not that it's required by any means. Just my thoughts of how it is for me.
You asked for examples of religious-inspired hatred, not biblically ordered.There's a difference. I can not debate with you on the questions you asked simply because you are steadfast in your beliefs and are not open to anything different. No matter what I say, as long as it does not fit into your ideology I will always be wrong to you because you believe that you are living the way God wants you to and that your interpretation of God is the only correct one, and that mine is wrong.
And your last comment was a low blow and you know it.
EDIT: I never gave you examples. As you can see clearly, the Bible not only condones slavery, but also regulates it.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
You asked for examples of religious-inspired hatred, not biblically ordered.There's a difference. I can not debate with you on the questions you asked simply because you are steadfast in your beliefs and are not open to anything different. No matter what I say, as long as it does not fit into your ideology I will always be wrong to you because you believe that you are living the way God wants you to and that your interpretation of God is the only correct one, and that mine is wrong.
And your last comment was a low blow and you know it.
EDIT: I never gave you examples. As you can see clearly, the Bible not only condones slavery, but also regulates it.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
there is a difference between using drugs and abusing drugs......however sometimes its a very fine line.......doesnt matter what the drug is.......could care less about someone using drugs recreationally......actually for that matter could care less about someone abusing drugs so long as they are only hurting themselves........our drug laws are royally screwed up, simple proof of that matter is the fact that billions are thrown at the problem to correct it and demand only gets higher......so long as kids sit and spin in their living rooms or out on their laws in order to get dizzy man kind will continue to use drugs.........
oh and BTW i smoked pot HEAVILY for quite a few years.......maintained a good GPA, took college level classes in high school.....held down a job....ect ect ect.....did not NEED drugs to make me happy but they sure in the hell helped to reduce stress.........had less than half th negative side effects of the sleeping pills the doc gave a couple weeks ago aswell.........granted pot aint heroin but as far as im concerned reality is a beotch.....who am i to say someone shouldnt be allowed to escape it if they so choose........and if they want to take something that may kill them, its their body......cant legislate against ppl harming themselves or everyone will be forced to wear full pad football gear to keep them from hurting themselves bumping into things..........
oh and BTW i smoked pot HEAVILY for quite a few years.......maintained a good GPA, took college level classes in high school.....held down a job....ect ect ect.....did not NEED drugs to make me happy but they sure in the hell helped to reduce stress.........had less than half th negative side effects of the sleeping pills the doc gave a couple weeks ago aswell.........granted pot aint heroin but as far as im concerned reality is a beotch.....who am i to say someone shouldnt be allowed to escape it if they so choose........and if they want to take something that may kill them, its their body......cant legislate against ppl harming themselves or everyone will be forced to wear full pad football gear to keep them from hurting themselves bumping into things..........
If you accept there is a God, how do you therefore then dictate what God thinks is acceptable? Are you the Lord of God or is God Lord of you?
It's more like you can't derive a valid and sound argument for your position because you honestly don't know what you are talking about.
The difference is this: I believe there's a loving, sovereign God who rules over me. He used man as a vessel to write down His word and I believe it as true. Through His son's life (Jesus) we see what God is like, and the best possible life is modeled through Him. We are offered a new life by accepting God's grace (Jesus on the cross) and put to death our old selves and live as a new creation.
You on the other hand seem to be Lord of your God and live to the ways of your own flesh.
How is it a low blow? I've never attended a NA meeting nor plan to because I don't abuse drugs. Just like I don't attend AA meetings because I don't have a drinking problem.
We've already talked about slavery and the Bible in another thread, but here ya go:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/57430/does_the_bible_endorse_slavery.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
