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Non-Compliance

being a single mom is hard i know. It doesnt help when you have a "rebelious" teen whos anti government, It also doesnt help when youre mom was in the military for 20 years.

I support my mom in her choice, and am completely aware of where she is coming from and why she would be against some of the things i do and support


Thats a little back ground.

Today at school the principal called me to the office, not to worried about any thing i went down relaxed in a good mood, Maybe it was a congratulations on the effort i had put in at school, making the B honor roll for the first time in ooh 6 years. Knowing this was not the case i kept my hopes up i haven't done any thing wrong. Ive served my detentions and Saturday schools. Nothing to worrie about, almost the end of the day, about to go to a friends house and get some salvia to extract (we recently got 2 kilos :sly: )

Well I got to the office and he called me in. Tony a kid in my home room, was in their too, imedietly got a wave of dread. thrown over me like a cold sweat soaked football towel. This was about the Pledge. The past 3 years living in a rural school hasn't been easy to say the least, and the start of my senior year also hasn't been so smooth, the new super intendant has been rough. Getting away with In school suspension has cause huge over crowding of Saturday school. I sat down and he started off with a calm cool voice that of a principal who has seen quite a bit at his school. "So do you guys know why you are down here?" In responce, i willingly and gladly spoke up

"Yes we haven't been standing for the pledge let alone saying it, it probably upsets you" I looked him right in the eyes and gave him a cute smile.

Looking back from me to my friend Tony, he asked why "No reason really" tony said blankly. Which was the truth, tony really was kind of lazy though he didnt show it jet dark hair, pale skin you got the impression that he kinda sat around allot inside playing video games.

"Well their are things that the government have done that I dont agree with. I feel the government reflects its country, and so do the blind ignorant people who refuse to make an effort for change" Saying with confidence, I had my reasons what was it to him?

Was it the new "tradition" of the veterans coming in on friday, while the choir and band (both of which I'm in) come in to speak and we give them thanks for serving our country. Or was it just that he was sincerely concerned why i wasn't standing for the pledge? He talked to us a little more, trying to figure out, after about 5 min's tony left. As the door creaked closed, I felt a rush, this is what its all about telling people informing the uninformed, this was when I felt most patriotic. I am a Patriot, just because i don't agree with every thing the government does doesn't mean I'm not a Patriot.

"Patriotism is keeping true to the values that your country was founded on. If this means protecting your country from the government then thats what needs to be done. A patriot must be willing to speak out against its government and do what must be done to preserve the values that their country stands for. The most dangerous thing you can have in a democracy is blind patriotism (ie everyone loves Americans no matter what we do)." - A quote from a friend

We talked, for 10-15 mins, in deep conversation of why I should stand. It came down to, I have a right not to stand for the pledge, let alone recite it. Looking at him a bit frazzled, filled with addrenaline, i said "Their is no reason for you to make me stand up, its my right my belief in not standing, I have my reasons, and they are my own. No one can suppress my expression."

Obviously no one can, coming from the kid sitting in the principals office, studded jacket, tight black jeans 20 eye Boots. With a Mohawk spiked up.

"Well ill tell you what you can choose not to stand, but im going to ask you to come to the office after your home room teacher takes attendance if you arent going to stand" He said almost to defensively, kind of like shoving a corn cob where it shouldn't go. It pissed me off. I asked why he said I had to come to the office theirs no reason why.

"You have to understand, im the principal, i make the rules you have to do what I tell you, and I feel it is MY right, to get rid of disruptions in class," As if sitting quitely while the morning anouncements come over the intercom, with his cool breezy voice bellowing out through out the whole school, maybe working on some homework or just reading a book was disturbing the "class", "And i feel that what you are doing is disruption and its my duty as principal of this school to bring you to the office during home room cause i see it fit.

The vice principal quietly nods, agreeing, sitting quietly, like a spectator at a great debate between two political candidates, the one with the most money/support is always going to have the power. It made me mad, he was just watching me, defending what little freedom at this school i had being stripped away even more.

"I support peoples little clubs/cliches and the believes people have, but this isn't like we are saying prayer, thats handled by the state to be not apart of our public school system"

Now, i was given my choices i fully understood and comprehended them, i asked "What would happen if i chose not to stand and not to come down to the office"

"we will deiced that when it happens" He said.

I go back to my class. Obviously upset with what just happened. :flame:

I was patiently waiting to get out of school see what happened tomorrow, almost anxious as if it was Christmas. 6th period ends, 7th period band, most of my punk buddies are in band, they think its funny, cause I'm the one that always gets in trouble for things like this. :brickwall:

Well, towards the end of band I get called down to the office, as I leave, I say loudly enough that my band teacher gives me a dirty look "hurray, more rights being stripped from the Americans, and in our schools no less!"

On the way down I quitely think that was fast he found out what he needed to in 30 mins? We had made a deal he would find outif he had the right to make me come to the office.

Obviously he hadent, he just wanted to get our problem over with. We talk, he says that I have no choice He is the principal i do what he says. Dictators are so pompous. "Why it makes no since this isnt right to me, where is the rule saying I have to come to the office if i dont stand. What happens If i dont come Insubordination, non-compliance?"

Non-compliance gets you expelled at our rural farm school apparently, for something as innocent as practicing my rights.

So he calls my mom I go back to band, knowing this wont be a fun day. As soon as I go out to the hallway waiting for the Driver Bell to ring, my mom calls, upset. Here it comes the flood of tears, trying to break me down feel guilty. Not the first time shes used this tactic.

We talk, as she crys when i get home, about her service, how ive screwed up allot recently (mostly once i dropped my dead beat, self righteous, lieing, manipulative christain ex gf last year) We talked, about how 9/11 happend, why. Why i disliked the government.

She said it was a slap in the face, and is persistent on making me stand. What the heck should I do? I don't agree, but i do support the USA just not the way the Government is running things. With the way we are being told what to do.

I don't know what to do cause all she has been doing is crying and theirs nothing I can do cause she doesn't even want to look at me. It's awkward being round her in my house now cause she just looks at me with disappointment and almost hate.



(Sorry I copied what i wrote from another forum that doesn't mind swearing"
 
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Contact the ACLU, right this damn instant. He can not discriminate against you. Sitting quietly in your seat is NOT a disruption. No one will riot in the classrooms if you don't. They'll stand, say the pledge, sit, and that's that.


I didn't say the pledge. I had a teacher get in my face about it (real fundamentalist. I went to NA with her son and even he hates her guts) and, in front of everyone, asked me (angrily) why I didn't do it, why I didn't feel like it, and then informed me that I still had to stand even if I didn't want to say the pledge. I stood up, informed her that it is my legal right not to stand or say anything, and she can call the principal if she wants. She did and he informed her I didn't have to do squat. Naturally I never got an apology from her.

I also wonder if they're discriminating against you by the way you look.
 
Since your such a ""rebelious" teen whos anti government" and "i do support the USA just not the way the Government is running things". Why in the world would you continue to be bought and sold in the government educational factories?

You complain about the system, but you still wake up every day and go to school.
 
I printed off some papers, from the ACLU and am going to talk to my principal about not standing for the pledge. It's against the 1st amendment and their have been court cases that say its unconstitutional for me to be threatened by punishment for not standing and saying the pledge.

Burningbeard, Cause its the only way I will be able to live, support my self and make enough money to move, though I will more than likely be unhappy with any country's government I move too. So why not try and make a Change in the Country I LIVE IN NOW. If i didnt wake up every day and go to school, i wouldnt be able to support my self let alone get any where with my life.

Just because i appose the government doesn't mean I'm Patriotic, blind Patriotism will kill democracy.
 
PUBLIC SCHOOL....first of all....bunch of morons that are in it and principals are THE biggest scumbags of all. I got along with my superintendent better than ANYONE in my school. Shoot....i even had a beer with him!

Anyways, I'd tell your principal to go stuff it, if it was me. I got in trouble in high school so many times for exposing the truth and telling it like it was. My mom was so mad at my principal, one day she reached across his desk and grabbed him by the shirt collar! Oh what a great day THAT was. Cherished memories! :)
 
Are you being confrontational about it?

Ugh brings back my own memories of highshool when I wouldn’t stand for the pledge and had augments with my teachers about it. I was… kind just like you, anti government and whatnot. Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn’t… they just kind of gave up. I didnt help the matter by being crass about it.
Remember: standing does not mean you have to do anything else. Scratch your bum or whatever if you feel like it I don’t care.

Whatever. Just remember that you don’t have any of the silly fluffy stuff when you go to college. Even in the sports games no one is going to make you stand for the anthem. Just survive it and remember you wont have to do it again…
 
I completely disagree! Don't stand if you don't want to. Don't just survive and remember it's OK when you go to college! Don't conform! Do you want to tell your children you gave in, or do you want to tell them you stood up for your rights? The rights men and women died for. You're the true patriot here!

The only reason I never said the pledge was because God is in it. I believe in God now but I still won't say the pledge. If your beef is about God being in the pledge, but you don't have a problem with the rest of it, just don't say the word God. If you're beef is with saying the pledge period, don't say it! There's no question that sucking it up and saying the pledge would be the easy thing to do, but do you want to take the easy way out and sacrifice your values? It's up to you.
 
Tough issue to deal with! Our Constitution does allow for dissent and protest, in non-violent ways. We have the right to petition and we have the right to speak up about it. You have the right to challenge this, as long as you follow appropriate channels.

You and I both know and operate under a higher authority and no one can regulate what goes on in our minds (like prayer).

Philosphical question: Is a flag akin in concept to bowing dpwn to an idol? Or is it really no big deal at all? Would compliance be a vilation of your right to relifious freedom of expression or can it be done in appeasement and not have any real repercussions?
 
The only reason I never said the pledge was because God is in it. I believe in God now but I still won't say the pledge. If your beef is about God being in the pledge, but you don't have a problem with the rest of it, just don't say the word God. If you're beef is with saying the pledge period, don't say it! There's no question that sucking it up and saying the pledge would be the easy thing to do, but do you want to take the easy way out and sacrifice your values? It's up to you.

I used to just leave out the "under God" bit in the Pledge. That wasn't added until the 1950's by the McCarthy-ists to snare in "Godless commies". Also as I recall the right hand wasn't originally held over the heart but rather held straight out at shoulder level. That was changed when a smiliar salutes came into fashion in the late 1920's through mid 1940's.
 
  • #10
but i do support the USA just not the way the Government is running things.

When people say the pledge of allegience, what makes you think they are pledging allegiance to the Government instead of to the USA?

seems to me the opposite would be true...the pledge is to the USA..not the government that happens to be in power this particular 4 year span of time..

when I was in grade school, we didnt say "I pledge allegiance to Ronald Regan" ;)
and during the 90's I dont think school kids were saying ""I pledge allegiance to Bill Clinton"..the pledge does not change with administrations..which pretyt much proves right there that the pledge is to the country..not the current administration.

You say you support the USA and are a patriot..then wouldnt you being showing that support by saying the pledge? ???

im just not clear why you think the pledge of allegiance is showing support for George Bush and not the Country...im pretty sure the pledge was written long before he was born! ;) Seems to me by not saying the pledge you are showing disrespect to the county you claim to support.

thoughts?

thanks,
Scot
 
  • #11
If I may be so bold. Your perspective is skewed. The pledge is not about the government. Nowhere in the pledge does it say: "and I support the machine which makes the nation lumber on."

Take in the actual words. The Pledge of Allegiance is about supporting your country. It is about being a patriot.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA"

Translation = I am an American

"And to the republic for which it stands"

Translation = I believe in the society we live in

(Note: "Republic" does not mean Republican)

"One nation"

Self explanatory

"under God"

Left in for the posterity of the founding father's intents. Take it or leave it as your beliefs in a higher power are your own

"Indivisible"

Translation = Unified as Americans, regardless of political affiliation

"With liberty and justice for all"

Or so the forefathers had hoped. Obviously not absolute but a heck of a lot better than most countries out there.

So, a person who called themselves a patriot and actually meant it should have no problem saying the pledge because it is about supporting your country (which is what patriotism is) and not about supporting the monkey in a suit who "runs" the country.

It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

If that is the case that is fine indeed, free country and all that. But, consider that when you refuse to conform you then make yourself obvious (which is the point I know.) And when you are looking for attention sometimes the attention you get is not always positive. When that happens you have to live with the situation you have created.

There are fights that are worth fighting and there are fights that are not. You have to figure out for yourself which they are. And if you fight and lose, then you have to live with the repercussions. That is just part of life.

Personally, I think there are probably bigger battles out there to fight. But that is just me. Rather than get myself shot down over something so trite I would say just stand up for the Pledge. Stand up but stay silent (after all, no one said anything about saying the Pledge...) If, for some asinine reason they come after you for not actually saying the Pledge then tell them okay and just mouth the words along. Not like they will know the difference unless they are standing right there next to you. BUt that is all just my 2 cents and you can take it or leave it. Make no difference to me.

In the meantime, if I may, I recommend you go out and watch the movie 'SLC Punk'. I think you'll like it.
 
  • #12
OMG! I have so much to say but I am going to try to be short here. I applaud you for your actions. I used to not say the pledge, and one day my math teacher just got fed up with me, and sent me to the principal's office. Needless to say this made a huge scene in front of the class, so I made one back. I said I would be glad to go to the principal's office and explain the situation to her. So i sit down in the principal's office with a poop-eating (filtered =/) grin on my face, and she started giving me grief. I cut her off mid-sentence, and I was very assertive. The conversation went something like this:

Principal: So Mr. Farber says you aren't saying the pledge of allegiance in the morning. This kind of behavior won't be tolarated and...
Me: WOAH, WOAH, WOAH. It is my legal right not to say the pledge. If I don't want to stand up and pledge to the flag then I absolutely don't have to.
Principal: Well... you need to pledge to the flag during pledge time.
Me: I don't know if you know this or not, but I can actually sue the school for trying to make me pledge. [I didn't actually know whether I could or not lol, but it sounded good at the time]
Principal: Well, you should say the pledge every morning.
Me: Well, I'm not going to. That is my legal right. And it is ridiculous that he pulled me out of class to send me here because he tried to violate my rights.
Principal: [She did a complete 180] Well, you know what, you're right. You should get back to class so you don't miss anymore lecture.
Me: I don't appreciate him wasting my time like this, I want you to have a talk with him. [I was a prick in high school who would do anything to get back at the teachers]
Principal: I will, I will. Just get back to class.

I was sooo stoked. I went back to class (smiling like a prick) and rubbed it in his face in front of the whole class. The whole class got quiet when I walked in the door and I was like, "yeah, the principal said I didn't have to get up for the pledge and she is going to have a talk with you later on." He asked to talk to me outside, and I basically rehashed what the principal told me. Lol the whole class was watching us talk outside. After that a couple other people stopped saying the pledge too lol. He also treated me completely different and was a lot more respectful.

NEVER be afraid to fight for what you believe in. Some people are always going to try to erode your rights, and it is up to you to fight back. If the principal indeed tries to kick you out for not pledging, I am sure you can take the issue up with the regional head of education. So long as you are not being disruptive (which it sounds like you aren't), then you should be fine.

Edit: Oh yea my high school was the school that made national news when the Vice Principal decided she was going to strip search the students at a school dance, in front of everyone... She was feeling up the students (girls mostly)... it was hilarious.
 
  • #13
kinda what i was thinking Pyro................especially this part:

It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

If that is the case that is fine indeed, free country and all that. But, consider that when you refuse to conform you then make yourself obvious (which is the point I know.) And when you are looking for attention sometimes the attention you get is not always positive. When that happens you have to live with the situation you have created.

There are fights that are worth fighting and there are fights that are not. You have to figure out for yourself which they are. And if you fight and lose, then you have to live with the repercussions. That is just part of life.
 
  • #14
I just read ScottyChaos' and Pyro's posts, and I don't believe that is the issue... This is like the argument that you can support our troops without supporting the war in Iraq. It's just not true. The troops fight the war, and perpetuate problems (although they may not do it by choice, they joined up by choice). The same goes for our government and our nation. The people in charge (head of the gov't) do atrocious things in the name of our country and tarnish it's name. Although we are built upon wonderful ideals, and excellent civil liberties, our controllers fail to uphold these founding beliefs. The pledging of the flag is just a means of creating a blind acceptance for this authority. This is why it's consistently drilled into our heads during school. How many people do you know who keep pledging allegiance daily, after K-12 school? Are they any less patriotic? And don't believe that by not pledging you are simply being non-conformist... It is true that your are not conforming, but it is not that simple. You are not conforming to the direction and intentions of the controlling powers and that is the issue. (heck maybe you don't believe in pledging to a nation under god, or that this nation provides liberty and justice for all...)

I will say however, that I absolutely agree with a certain aspect of Pyro's post. By not pledging you do make yourself obvious which can be a bad thing... but in high school I don't think this is such a big problem. Later on in life though, dissent can bring you many problems and the repercussions will only get worse as our government becomes ever more controlling. (think Patriot Act. One woman actually had the F.B.I. come to her house because someone told them she had posters on her wall that were anti-bush)

I just recommended this book to Clint, and I think you might actually enjoy it too. The book is "A People's History Of The United States" by Howard Zinn. It really helps clarify the truth behind U.S. history. If you want a shorter, easier read, I would suggest "Lies My Teacher Told Me" By James Loewen. If you want a more difficult read, I would suggest Hermann and Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Read some of that literature and you will see why I believe the pledge is just a method of creating blind acceptance. You are no less patriotic than the person who rises to mindlessly recite some words, or the person who slaps an American Flag sticker on their car (or a yellow ribbon for that matter).
 
  • #15
i figure this does have much more to do with being a non-conformist than being a patriot......not disagreeing with most ofyour sentaments, Nepenthes..........just figure its not so much what this situation is about..........nep_ak decided to do something cause it would make him stand out as a non-conformist, brought more attention to himself than he wanted essentally by picking the wrong battle.....is he in the right? sure.......but he still picked a fight and has to deal with the consiquences there of.......
 
  • #16
I'm not sure wanting to stand out as a non-conformist was his motive, but that is for him to say. As to those consequences...

According to a 1943 United States Supreme Court ruling, students do not have to rise and pledge allegiance... Tell your principal to kick you out of school, so you can get a fat paycheck from the school funds after the lawsuit. Also, tell your mom you were rightfully defending your American rights, that she stood for in the military. Here is a link to some information...
http://www.libertarianrock.com/topics/rights/pledge_rights.html
Booyakasha... =) Check out these quotes from there... "Some students say that the daily pledge is an attack on their intellectual independence and makes them act like robots."
"It's like a brainwashing technique," said student Sheila King. "You can't pound someone into patriotism."
It is more patriotic to stand up for your rights than to stand up for the pledge.
I love it.

Lol I wish I found these sites before making my posts, and before you went to school today.

Here is the actual Case:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624
 
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  • #17
as i said he is in the right...................however do i think this whole thing has to do with him getting more attention than he intended on getting from not saying the pledge.......
 
  • #18
as i said he is in the right...................however do i think this whole thing has to do with him getting more attention than he intended on getting from not saying the pledge.......

Oh I know you said he was in the right... I just wanted to give him the legal ruling for his reference. I did not mean to come off as arguing with you, or anyone else for that matter.

Oh yea, they also say he can sue if they try to violate this specific right.
 
  • #19
"And the republic for whch it stands..." Who said anything about a democrasy?

Ah, the vex of being a mohawked teen in a small town school, I feel your pain! Don't know how many times the same sort of incidents happened to me. I just did what I felt, don't let them make you go through things you don't agree with. Don't be cowed into being the sheep they want you to be. I always hung up anti-army posters in the halls when the recruiters came, handed out PETA brochures on vegetarian day, etc. If they can use the school as a soap box so can I dammit! :)

As for your mom, I'm sorry about that. You can try logic on her "You fought for this country then you fought for my right to believe the way I do." but it will likely fall on deaf ears right now. Maybe in time she'll come to respect your right to have your own beliefs. A lot of parents have this idea that their kids should think and live the same way they did and that's BS.
 
  • #20
It sounds to me that in reality it is less about "being a patriot" and more about "being a non-conformist".

I agree as well. There are productive ways to making changes in systems. I should know because I am constantly trying to empower college students to make changes when they are upset about a particular process or policy on the college level. I would hardly consider your "non-compliance" as actually making a difference in your "passion."

You could ask the principal for an opportunity to speak to the veterans and explain to them how your not standing during the pledge of allegiance is not a sign of disrespect towards them and there service but rather as... and state your reasons (in a non-arrogant, non-holier than thou, respectful manner). If anything, it could also prove a learning opportunity for you and you could also inquire to how the veterans feel about such a sign or "protest."

There are plenty of ways to make progress in educating both sides of any disagreement and the first of which is not trying to prove how educated you and how ignorant your principal is. Debate is the free exchange of ideas and should never be considered an act of non-compliance. Yes, your principal may not be open to listening to you and your opinions but it also sounds as you were guilty of the same thing. I would also recommend that you set up an appointment at a more appropriate time than right after you were reprimanded for the behavior he is trying to "correct."

Again, I am not trying to presume anything since I obviously wasn't there and only know about you what you've posted here and in the past threads about other responses to authority you've had; however, you'll make a lot more progress with other methods and practice.

I love it when students and youth get passionate about issues (especially ones that directly involve themselves).
I'm all for you making a difference, so don't take anything I've said as fundamentalist or siding with the establishment; I'm just tired of how most of the time people just want to complain and make a scene rather than make a difference.

(Sorry I copied what i wrote from another forum that doesn't mind swearing"

Not much of an apology if you don't make an attempt to easily correct the behavior.

xvart.
 
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