NY Police free to kill again

[swords]

Verdict just in: aquitted 3 cops kill unarmed man at his bachelor party.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/25/sean.bell.trial/index.html

It's only in movies where the cops get theirs.

Every time there's a charge against police they dance away scott free -it's like we're living in a Philip K. **** dystopian future novel.

"Don't you want to help your government?"

 

[scottychaos]

Dont drive your car at police trying to run them over, and the police wont have to shoot you dead..

the victim was far from "innocent" in this case..the only person responsible for his death is him.
his actions had consquences..
if he had been a decent law-abiding guy, he would still be alive today..

im so tired of the police being demonized for doing their jobs..

"poor innocent baby..he did nothing wrong! he was only at a strip club, with guns and drugs, didnt do what the police asked, got in a car, while drunk, and drove it toward police, hitting one of them, who then shot at him FOR NO REASON!!"

uh huh, right..

I dont feel sorry this guy..he brought it on himself..

Scot

 

[swords]

BS

Being at a club that is under investigation unbeknownst to you doesn't make you automatically an accomplce to anyting that may have gone on there when you are not involved. Driving away from someone in plain clothes holding a gun at you doesn't constitute trying to run someone down. I would be dead too cos I'd have done the same thing -try to get away from a fight.

Guess ya'll better buy my funeral flowers early!

 

[scottychaos]

BS

yes I know..which is why I responded to it.

scot

 

[scottychaos]

BS

Being at a club that is under investigation unbeknownst to you doesn't make you automatically an accomplce to anyting that may have gone on there when you are not involved. Driving away from someone in plain clothes holding a gun at you doesn't constitute trying to run someone down.

You forgot some words..let me fill them in for you..

Being at a club that is under investigation (alledgely) unbeknownst to you doesn't make you automatically an (alledged) accomplce to anyting that may have gone on there when you are not (alledgely) involved. (alledgely) driving away from someone in plain clothes holding a gun at you , (alledgely) pretending you are an innocent victim and have no idea who they are or why they are chasing you, (alledgely) ignoring their shouts that they are police and to halt, and (alledgely) driving your car at them to run them over, doesn't (alledgely) constitute trying to run someone down.

Scot

 

[droseraguy]

The off duty cop in Chicago got off after beating up the bartender as well. That being said there are idiots in every profession. No LEO would willingly harm another person unless their life was in jeapordy. Corruption is also a part of the "system" no matter where you live but I'd like to think it is a very small part. No one wants to work with another guy that is above the law, or would make others look bad.

In this instance though I completely agree with scot.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Well by reading that left wing CNN version of the story where it takes Bloomberges words out of contect it is easy to see he was "innocent". But when I read theFox story then it apears Bell's friends and bell asked for the treatment they got. When you are over heard saying "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" then you go into protect mode. The officers had their shields around their next so even if they didn't hear them say they are cops there was a shinny shield there. If your not acting like a hoodlum and wanting ti get in a fight with someone else int he bar and cause trouble this would have never happened. Them getting frisky with the girl and causing another gentleman who had a gun to confront the trouble makers in Bell's group. I'm sorry but if I am carrying a gun and someone tried to run me down i am going to empty my clip into your car. Bell tried to run the cops down twice before he got fired at. So that was not just trying to get away. There is alot more to this than you get from CNN and even fox admittedly.

I'm not saying cops do not make mistakes and have not killed when unnecessarily, but I do not think that is the case here. Two of the guys accused were black, so how can anyone thinking it was racially driven? Cops especially in undercover situations are high stressed and can be killed at the drop of a dime if they are fingered as a cop. So the moral of this story is. Don't be stupid and try to get into fights and be a gentleman instead of a billy bad *** wannabe thug. Had these guys not been trying to pick up a hooker at a strip club and then get in an argument with the girls protectors then they wouldn't have been shot at. These officers were doing their job and protecting themselves.

 

[radjess331]

Ok so I read the report. I am sorry but the police were in the right. I am just a student in law enforcement and crime scene investigation. However think about it. There was detectives. They are supposed to investigate. They were under the belief that one of the people they were following was about to get a gun.Then the people they were following got into a car and tried to leave. The officers tried to stop them. The suspects begin driving. Police draw their weapons. He tried to run them over. They fired at him.

He claims to be trying to get away, but I'm sorry who ever heard of driving at the person you are trying to run away from....if your scared you go the other way....not charge at them with your car.....and yes he did charge at them...if you read the whole thing he brushed one of the officers legs.....

From this you can easily argue self defense on the officers part. They were just trying to stop the person trying to kill them.....And at that note...what judge would convict even a normal citizen from using any resource available to him in order to stop a person trying to hit him with a car.

Police don't always get away "scott free"....two border police are in jail for a really long time for shooting a drug smuggler in the *** while he was fleeing from them.....he who was using tactics which killed an officer just days before with a car....they were trying to protect themselves...and the public....and yet they are in jail.....

Also don't attack the police officers. If you continuely barrage them with policies and verdicts so that they have to be politically correct at all times. When people will need them to draw their weapons in order to protect the public they won't be able to. Also what police officer in their right mind would want to protect those who are against them. Eventually you will need them...you will want them....but will they be there?

Don't give me any crap either on how I may have a biased view.....thinking that people who love officers....have not lived in the ghettos, tuckies or have ever needed one and they turned a blind eye.....Please I grew up in fontucky (fontana), san bernardino, west covina....my uncle Valentino Junior was the one who shot the police officer on the courthouse steps in pomona.....My family is the gangs that officers kill and vice versa.....I realized though...that we were in the wrong....we are not just trying to protect our families....it is all just business.. coke meth ice kush cannabis....we are the problem in society....we kill each other.....we reck havoc on cities who would normally be nice neighborhoods... The Police have one of the hardest jobs in the united states........protecting you.....

 

[Finch]

...Of course the least biased of the news channels is always the one closest to my own veiws... liberals say the likes of CNN is unbiased and conservatives will say that Fox is the most fair and balanced. Whatever.

From what information I have seen I am more inclined to agree with scot and Josh in this case. But the timing was especially sad.

 

[Ozzy]

I'm just going to make a point. I didn't read the article so I don't know any facts other than were stated here.

He claims to be trying to get away, but I'm sorry who ever heard of driving at the person you are trying to run away from....if your scared you go the other way....not charge at them with your car.....and yes he did charge at them...if you read the whole thing he brushed one of the officers legs.....

You can't assume they were going out of their way to run over the cops. There may had only been one way out. Even if there was more than one way, I'm sure the cops jumped infront of the car with their guns drawn. They may have had their badges around their necks but you still can't assume the people in the car saw them. I'm sure this was a highly stressful situations for both sides. The adrenaline was pumping and some times you make a wrong split second decision. From what I've read here the only person that was a threat to the cops was the driver. The rest seemed to be along for the ride and couldn't do much to stop the situation.

One of the problems I see is one of the tactics used by cops. They jump infront of a moving car, pull their guns and if the person don't stop they claim they shot the person in self defense. The driver may only have a split second to make the right decision, if they panic and try to get away, they die. Then the cop says they tried to run them over. I've seen this happen over and over on cops. Especially in car chases The cop pulls out infront of the car to stop it and then the suspect hits the cop and they claim he rammed them and is charged with assault with a deadly weapon. In a car chase it's different. The person makes a choice to run from the cops and I have little pity on them. It's just funny when the cop jumps in front of the car and then he says "He's trying to hit me"

In the situation here, I don't know that the cops jumped out in front of the car but I can see that happening because that is what they are trained to do.

I haven't taken either side yet because I don't know any facts in the case. Most of my family are cops, so by my post here don't assume I'm anti cop. I just wanted to point out what appears to me as people assuming that they went out of their way and tried to run over the cops.

I'll read the article now and see how wrong I am. LOL

 

[swords]

Being a former victim of police brutality (earth day 1993) I am never inclined to believe the police are being truthful and until you've been a victim of the states power you won't know what it's like , how it FOREVER changes your viewpoint.

 

[Ozzy]

Being a former victim of police brutality (earth day 1993) I am never inclined to believe the police are being truthful and until you've been a victim of the states power you won't know what it's like , how it FOREVER changes your viewpoint.

I'm sure.

I have had cops lie and charge me with false charges. Just that alone can change your viewpoint.

 

[vft guy in SJ]

Am I the only one who noticed that these officers fired over 50 rounds at these guys? The victim was shot like 16 times!! Thats "self defence"?

Officers Michael Oliver, 36, and Gescard Isnora, 29, stood trial for manslaughter while Officer Marc Cooper, 40, was charged with reckless endangerment. Two other shooters weren't charged. Oliver squeezed off 31 shots; Isnora fired 11 rounds; and Cooper shot four times

31 shots!! Thats intent to kill, not to wound, not disarm, not defence. To KILL plain and simple.

The officers, complaining that pretrial publicity had unfairly painted them as cold-blooded killers, opted to have the judge decide the case rather than a jury.

Imagine that. They had a JUDGE decide the case rather than a jury. And guess what, they got off. hmmmmmm

Sorry to all of you police friendly people out there, but cops lie in court, and judges will ALWAYS agree with them first regardless of evidence to the contrary.

 

[phissionkorps]

That being said there are idiots in every profession

True, but have you ever met a smart cop (basic "street" cop, not detective...who in some cases are still complete fools)? I sure as hell haven't. I don't think someone that got all C's in highschool and never went to college should have that kind of power (or any, for that matter). When they start requiring police to have college degrees, then maybe I'll respect them....

 

[Finch]

Being a former victim of police brutality (earth day 1993) I am never inclined to believe the police are being truthful and until you've been a victim of the states power you won't know what it's like , how it FOREVER changes your viewpoint.

What?
That sounds a bit like dismissing viewpoints out of hand because others "don't know what its like." Assuming police are always wrong is just as accurate as assuming police are always right (not very) IMHO.

 

[MrFlyTrap2]

My partner while being arrested for some thing in the past (expired license, registration, maybe both, lol) was being harassed by police during the incident. They hated the brother of the family who had more serious run ins with the law.

During the incident the cuffs were taken off and was instructed to run to the stop sign ahead. When asked why, the officer stated, "My dog needs some exercise!" Of course the comment was followed by laughter of the other 3 officers present. Luckily the officer wasn't obeyed.

Tuesday I was almost hit by an state officer in a squad car on campus that did a U turn in a busy intersection, hopped onto the sidewalk (full of pedestrian traffic) sped on the sidewalk for half of a block, later dumping into the street to give someone girl a ticket. While walking to and from my office they had 5 students pulled over, 3 squad cars at each incident and all driving erratically. It just made so aggravated to see our student population being terrorized by these officers who were invited to 'enhance security' due to some spray painted message found on a wall. Only to be bullied more as a result.

Anyways back to the topic. I think that for this case it's very important to note that the gun comment was never said to a cop directly. The group was leaving. The officer was NOT in uniform, the squad car that was hit was NOT marked. And I don't know what I would have done differently. Aggravated and going HOME, suddenly someone jumps behind my car looking like just some jerk at the bar, who FIRES a gun (the warning shot) behind me while backing up. I'd have to think this guy was ready to kill me or car jack me, only making me want to get the hell out of there ASAP. He didn't run over the officer, according to statements he "brushed the officer with the car." According to other statements, the cops were confused by breaking glass and flying bullets. They tricked themselves into thinking the unarmed men were firing back due to their own excessive use of force.

Taunting people... Excessive
Driving through pedestrians for tickets... Excessive
Pulling random students over 3 squad cars at a time... Excessive
Killing an unarmed man with 50+ gun shots... Excessive

But just my opinion.

 

[Nepenthes]

I have so much to say but so little time... Basically a significant amount of cops abuse their power, because power corrupts. A few of them, even street cops, are actually intelligent and respectful people however. I remember meeting one in particular who was exceptionally intelligent and mindful of civil rights, however he was getting ready to retire after not having been promoted from a street cop his entire career. When I asked him why that was, he told me it was because he didn't go along with all the corruption that the other officers did. I know he was highly intelligent because I had the opportunity to talk with him for many hours, so it couldn't be that he failed the tests, because they're not rocket science. Anyway, this type of crap happens EVERY single day. It usually doesn't receive this much media attention and it doesn't always end in gross-overkill, but it always points to excessive force.

On a side note... Oliver, the genius that squeezed off 31 rounds, had to have reloaded and emptied another clip into the guy... unless he had an extended 9mm clip in a glock, which would just be ridiculous anyway.

 

[herenorthere]

Plenty of police officers are smart, whether they've been to college or not or never got better than a C in high school. I've known plenty of PhDs and can't think of many (any?) that I'd want to see being a cop. The job requires a different set of skills and a different way of thinking. As Nepenthes said, power corrupts, especially those don't have the morals and self-awareness to resist. It doesn't matter whether it's the cop on the street, a professor lording over a class/grad student, or a corporate CEO. It can happen to any of them. It doesn't even need to be much power, think about the stereotype of the person behind the counter at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles. The trouble is that cops have guns and do seem to carry get out of jail free cards.

 

[seedjar]

The problems I have with the cops' side of this story are as follows:
- If the suspects were talking about going to get a gun out of their car, shouldn't the officers have found one in the ensuing investigation?
- Why do the accounts of both the defense and witnesses say the officers never identified themselves? (Could it be that, being far enough away from a speeding car to fire 31 rounds before it reaches you, the driver of that car perhaps might not be able to tell that you're pointing a gun at them because you're an UNDERCOVER OFFICER?!)
- The police weren't there investigating Bell or his friends. If they were, you can bet it would've come up in court, and it would've totally changed the precedents involved. I don't know NYPD procedures, but I believe it was pretty far outside of the officers' assignment to use such great force with so little information about the situation. Weren't they there under the presumption that this establishment was party to some sort of criminal activity? What happened to that investigation? You can bet the real crooks have long since packed up and found a better front.
- Killing is killing. If a guy broke into my house and I mistakenly thought he had a weapon and went to defend myself with lethal force, there's pretty much a 0% chance that I'll get away without any charges placed on me. Even if he did have a weapon, I might still be liable if he ends up being the one who dies. It's one thing to call this case "not murder," or to aim for reduced sentencing in the understanding that law enforcement officers are placed in some really tough spots as a part of the job. But to just let them walk away free, with no disciplinary action whatsoever, really speaks poorly of the system. "OK, go serve the people. Take this gun and, if people happen to get shot, it shouldn't be a problem." Regardless of whether or not any individual cop is good or bad, it's simply terrible policy. Beyond being an absurd double-standard that is unconstitutional to the core, it makes the police look really horrible in the eyes of the public.
All ethical judgments aside, the police are no good whatsoever if the general public cannot trust and rely upon their benevolence and good judgment. Any actions that undermine the reputation of the police are unacceptable, for they simply cause greater civil unrest and through it more crime and disorder. Police are not merely enforcers of the law, but public representatives of it; if the public is made to fear the police, then the law too becomes something to be avoided and reviled. It is simply necessary to maintain a positive standing between the public and authorities; to do otherwise is antithetical to the purpose of law and police. Being that they are the ones who presume to offer the service of law enforcement, it is naturally the police that have the power to affect this relationship, for good or for bad.
~Joe

PS - On the issue of bad cops; in my experience, most cops are genuinely good, tolerant people. The job definitely attracts a higher-than-normal ratio of jerks, but besides for some bad attitude issues most of them have their heart in the right place. However, a bad cop is a truly terrifying thing, and the system is ripe for exploitation. I think the abuses of bad cops, plus the waste and mistakes caused by those "mediocre" cops, arguably outweighs what good is done. This is not to say that we should do away with police; merely, the system needs profound reformation. Checks and balances, please!

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Well I will be one to tell you if it were me I would not have stopped firering my gun until the guy stopped trying to run my partner over or he was dead. You try to run me or my partner over then I am going to subdue you. I cannot do anything to a car but I can do something to you. If you keep going then I keep pumping. So I don;t blame him for firering 31 shots if that is what it took to get him to stop.

These cops were damned if they do and damned if they don't. Had they not done nothing and a gun fight ensured and the public knew they were there then they would have been asked why nothing happened, but when they did do something and it meant killing someone to subdue him because he was trying to run down a cop, then they get jumped on too.

Had the guys not been trying to pick up a hooker in a shade scuzzy strip joint and trying to act all hard when she denied them they wouldn't be where they are today. I am sorry, but a lot of harassment comes from the harassed party doing something to draw attention to themselves to begin with. Even when I claimed to be harassed I knew I was doing something to get in trouble for to begin with.

Nate I am sorry bro, I don;t see it with you on this one. 50 shots is not excessive if it takes that many shots to get him to stop or somehow subdued. When your in that type of situation where it is a split second decision, you cannot tell me you would not be in the mindset it is me or them and I am going to do anything in my power to make sure it is not me. These cops had no idea what they had in the car. They heard that they said they were going to get a gun. Your undercover. That alone can bring a threat to your life, and now there is guns involved your going to be even more ready to protect yourself. I am sorry, but I do not think anyone here has been in a situation like this, including myself, to actually know what they would do or what should have been done. We all can speculate, but unless you have been put into a life or death situation you me or anyone else has absolutely no Fing clue.