It is NOT a pregnant man!!!

[xvart]

Sure there are XY females and XX males, but combined, they make up what...less than 1% of the population? Therefore, there's not even a point in bringing them up besides to just mention that they exist. Oops, forgot about the militant liberalism and "I'm always right" syndrome. We better not even acknowledge male/female sex or gender, because there are less than 1% of people who are a little different. While we're at it, since these people are inherently different, let's throw a bunch of money at them too....

So the XY/XX argument may be "insignifcant," but the following point made by Mokele is still valid.

So, if an individual, due to developmental anomaly, possessed the body of male but the mind of a female (or vice versa), what are they? Given that the brain is what gives us personality, memory, thought, behavior, and generally everything that makes us what we are, I say the brain is the deciding factor.

There are lots of developmental stages that can affect standard development. Much of it has to do with when estrogen and testosterone are pumped into the baby in the womb. During the first brain developing stage if the estrogen is pumped higher and then during the genital development is conversely testosterone, you'll have a person that physically identifies as a man and mentally (whether cognizant of this or not) identifies with females.

That happens a lot, and it's on a spectrum so it might be so insignificant that it's not noticeable or socialization takes over. So it is still a very pertinent discussion point.

xvart.

 

[Est]

:shrug:

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

They just say "pregnant man" because it gets viewers on Oprah and people opening the tabloids.

 

[xvart]

:shrug:

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

They just say "pregnant man" because it gets viewers on Oprah and people opening the tabloids.

But, Est, we like to over analyze everything!

xvart.

 

[ilbasso]

Wow, seems like a lot of people here aren't very secure in their "manhood".

Why does it matter to you what someone calls themselves? Do you think it somehow lessens you?

Or are you threatened and scared by the idea that the world isn't as simple as you want it to be?

I believe the issue is that the media hypes the hell out of this as a pregnant man which it clearly is not. That's it. I just hate the media.

 

[PlantAKiss]

Sex change operations are more about GENDER IDENTIFICATION than physical parts. If someone's "brain" tells them they are female, they feel female no matter which physical body they are in.

Personally I feel for anyone in that situation. Put yourself in that position and imagine what it is like having to live your life always feeling like you aren't who you should be...

For true transgendered people, this is a rough a life to lead and it's not by choice. Some are far happier dealing with crap society will deal out to them with a sex change operation than to live miserably stuck in a body that doesn't fit their brain's signals.

Some people have empathy for situations unlike their own...and some don't have that capacity.

 

[phissionkorps]

Some people have empathy for situations unlike their own...and some don't have that capacity.

Ummm.....

No one here is saying that they hate, or even dislike trannies. The only point il basso and I are making is born a woman, always a woman, and vice versa. The media is saying it's a pregnant man, which it clearly is not. Even if you get a sex change and get yourself a manufactured vagina, you still don't have a uterus and all the other attached stuff, nor can you self-lubricate. This individual still has all the female portions needed to create life, which obviously still function fine, ergo, not a man. I can't even see why this liberal touchy feely bullnonsense is coming into play. "Well what about emotions blah blah"...yeah great. Do you have a uterus? Yes? Then you're a woman - period.

 

[Mokele]

No one here is saying that they hate, or even dislike trannies

Really? What about this?

Yeah IT was a woman that was in the process of a sex change that got prego.

Funny, but the last time I checked, referring to a person as "it", a thing, denying their very humanity, is hateful.

The only point il basso and I are making is born a woman, always a woman, and vice versa. The media is saying it's a pregnant man, which it clearly is not. Even if you get a sex change and get yourself a manufactured vagina, you still don't have a uterus and all the other attached stuff, nor can you self-lubricate. This individual still has all the female portions needed to create life, which obviously still function fine, ergo, not a man. I can't even see why this liberal touchy feely bullnonsense is coming into play. "Well what about emotions blah blah"...yeah great. Do you have a uterus? Yes? Then you're a woman - period.

Did you completely miss my entire point about a female brain in a male body?

Why is the body what defines? The BRAIN is the self, not the body. A body is just a sack of meat.

And, what are you going to say in 10 years, when science has advanced to the point where a sex change is fully functional (ovaries, uterus, even the ability to make children)?

And why is a uterus or ovaries the definition? Is a woman who had her uterus removed no longer female?

Your hypocrisy is showing...

 

[Est]

But, Est, we like to over analyze everything!

:chuckle: To clarify, I'm not trying to discourage discussion on the important issue of gender identity, there've been some great points made in this thread.

On another, pertinent note:
Memes do not a good argument make. Time and time again I've seen certain people use them in an argument. Frankly, when I see them I generally just skip the post. They're funny in the correct context, but have no place in a frank conversation. What may be amusing when you're posting anonymously, just makes you look foolish when you're trying to appear to be a thinking being with a valid argument.
Most people wont get it. Most that do will lose respect for you. So for those of you who consider it clever, I submit that you should re-think the results.

 

[ilbasso]

And, what are you going to say in 10 years, when science has advanced to the point where a sex change is fully functional (ovaries, uterus, even the ability to make children)?

personally, I'll be happy for them. Everyone deserves to be what they wish and that would be the ultimate success for them.

And why is a uterus or ovaries the definition? Is a woman who had her uterus removed no longer female?

It isn't the ovaries that are in question. When the baby comes out the doctor doesn't need to do an internal probe to declare the sex (except in extreme cases when a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia or partially developed sets from both sexes). They look down there and say "its a boy" or "its a girl".

No one here is saying that they hate, or even dislike trannies. The only point il basso and I are making is born a woman, always a woman, and vice versa.

well technically I'm not saying that 100%. I have no problem with someone going around as a man that used to be a woman and visa versa...as long as they have gone through the entire procedure. Ok, biologically she/he is still whatever she or he originally was but if they have the right parts then I'm ok with them going by whatever they want. It doesn't bother me.

This whole rant was just because this person is getting far more than 15 minutes of fame while basically lying. You don't get this much media hype without benefiting from it somehow and that is what I object to. You just cannot stop your transition in the middle and call yourself complete therefore it is not a case of a man having a baby. The very fact that a baby had a way out proves that it came from somebody that is still biologically a woman on the most basic of levels.

I do wish her luck in completing her transition. I only wish that the media would stop hyping this quite so much and embellishing it for the sake of headlines.

 

[herenorthere]

This event doesn't deserve three pages of some people being accused of being insecure in their manhood while they accuse the others of liberal touchy feely bullnonsense. We're being sold out by our leaders and allow them to distract us into arguing over bogus man gives birth news. It must have been a slow news day during a lull between American Idol episodes and why waste even a second of thought on it?

 

[Mokele]

It isn't the ovaries that are in question. When the baby comes out the doctor doesn't need to do an internal probe to declare the sex (except in extreme cases when a baby is born with ambiguous genitalia or partially developed sets from both sexes). They look down there and say "its a boy" or "its a girl".

Why should genitalia trump the brain? If the brain is female or male, that's what the person is, period.

This whole rant was just because this person is getting far more than 15 minutes of fame while basically lying.

Wrong - they are not lying, they're defining themselves by their mind. That you disagree with it does not make it dishonest.

Mokele

 

[Capensis]

This event doesn't deserve three pages of some people being accused of being insecure in their manhood while they accuse the others of liberal touchy feely bullnonsense.

I agree. For anything, it's four pages now.


This is my opinion, I think that it's just far too complex for us to understand. Even those of you that think they're right, you're probably still wrong. Heck, all of us can be wrong.Scientists and doctors still don't fully understand the brain and how it controls if your personality of a male or female, so I highly doubt that some of you know. So that's what I think. It's just too complex for us to understand, so we all can't be sure of who's right or wrong.

 

[PlantAKiss]

No one here is saying that they hate, or even dislike trannies.

I didn't accuse anyone of saying that. I only mentioned that there ARE some people who can't feel empathy for others in situations different from their own. I wasn't referring to anyone specifically on this forum. However, if my statement was not true, there would be a lot less hate in this world.

Obviously in this society people who are "different" often get mistreated, made fun of and picked on.

And I agree with the comment about the uterus not defining what is female. There are plenty of women who have their reproductive parts removed for medical reasons and they are none the less female for it. I had half of mine removed because of endometriosis...so I guess I'm only half female...

I actually didn't hear anything about this on the news...only here. So I didn't know it was a big story.

 

[Outsiders71]

Why should genitalia trump the brain? If the brain is female or male, that's what the person is, period.

Since when did brains have gender?

Wrong - they are not lying, they're defining themselves by their mind. That you disagree with it does not make it dishonest.

Mokele

Who is to say what is appropriate in terms of defining themselves by their mind? There are many mental disorders, where people are diagnosed because they "define themselves by their mind".

Also last time I checked, gender has always been defined by physical attributes... not feelings or "brain gender".

 

[Mokele]

Since when did brains have gender?

Sounds like someone has missed the past 50 years of neuroscience research.

There are numerous portions of the brain which, by structure alone, can tell you what gender the brain came from. Possibly even more important, hormones are known to modulate neuronal activity and synaptic connections, so the same neural network can have massively different patterns under the influence of different hormonal conditions.

Who is to say what is appropriate in terms of defining themselves by their mind? There are many mental disorders, where people are diagnosed because they "define themselves by their mind".

Because the mind, even if diseased, IS the person. Cut it out, and you nothing but a sack of meat.

What makes you truly YOU? Your personality (brain) or your liver? Your memories (brain) or you pancreas? Your intelligence (brain) or your lungs?

In some people, the brain is broken (as any organ can be), but that in no way undermines that the brain makes them who they are, even if that's a crazy person.

Also last time I checked, gender has always been defined by physical attributes... not feelings or "brain gender".

So, what of people such as my ex, who is extremely androgynous?

Or those born with indeterminate gender?

There is an interesting case that illustrates my point: A young man who, as an infant, lost his ***** during a botched circumcision. In light of this accident, his parents elected to raise him as a girl, never telling him of his origins. They socialized him as a female in every possible way, and it didn't work. He exhibited "male" behavioral traits, ranging from choice of toys and play style to communication style to pretending to shave. Clearly, in spite of his body and how he was raised, his brain had a defined gender, which could not be altered.

Mokele

 

[herenorthere]

Biology becomes more and more baffling the more you learn about it.

 

[Ozzy]

Since when did brains have gender?

There are big differences in male and female brains. Any married man will tell you that.

To me this is so simple. A woman that was getting a sex change got pregnant. Just because she has some physical features that look male, Oprah and the media hyped that it was a man to get ratings, and of course it worked.

Nobody but the people in a persons life should care if somebody wants a sex change.

Most of the men that gets sex changes really don't look much like women. I know because I watch Jerry Springer.

What gets me though, is the liberal/conservative BS. Why do the people that have extreme views always resort to blaming everything on liberals or conservatives? It just shows that you're mindless sheep that will believe whatever the politicians that you like want you to believe. Aren't you smart enough to make decisions on your own? Or do you have to believe only what they want you to believe?

 

[PlantAKiss]

Since when did brains have gender?

Brains do have gender actually. Geez I learned that in psych 30 yrs ago. I'm sure there is more research on that in today.

 

[Outsiders71]

Brains do have gender actually. Geez I learned that in psych 30 yrs ago. I'm sure there is more research on that in today.

Yes there are anatomical differences, such as the number of connectors from the left side to the right side of the brain and surely the use of different brain departments. However brains do not have gonads...

One doesn't hook up a baby to a brain monitor and analyze the usage of different brain areas to determine if the baby is male or female. This is absurd.

 

[xvart]

However brains do not have gonads...

This is absurd.

It's not, by a long shot. It's already been well established that genitalia is not a solid indicator of gender/sex. It may have been for thousands of years, but that, like many other "traditions" is arcane. When the division between male and female was originally "decided" it was based on simple observation, since there was neither the technology nor the understanding of biochemistry/hormones.

As we become more educated, things become more clear (complicated) which is why I suggested in the beginning of this conversation about the split difference between sex and gender. You may have the genitalia that is most closely related to a man, a woman, or even both; but you can also be wired up to mentally associate with a man, a woman, or even both.

xvart.