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It's going to be Historic either way!!

  • #41
Oh, and it's all good JB! Rattler you and I always disagree on this stuff. So what? I like a good political dust-up among friends!

Capslock

lol no worries......just getting ready to head out for 3 days with no internet......dont want yah to think i ran off with my tail between my legs :grin: hitting the road in about an hour and a half and got crap to do other than a point by point argument on the 'net :poke: ..........
 
  • #42
I don't find any of those quotes in the least bit troubling. The first ones are all just relating his thoughts and journey as a young person, both things he regrets and things he's proud of. It seems a bit disingenuous to pluck them out without context like that.

The last one isn't the least bit damning. I'm with him on it 100%. The American ideal is: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Among these rights is freedom of religion. Should the political winds shift in an ugly direction, and Muslims become deprived of this right, on that day I also will stand with the Muslims. I'd hope you would too, as it's the American thing to do.

Capslock

Well said.

This brings me to what my biggest problem with McCain is, and that is his support of further limiting civil liberties. This is a classic move from any group that wants to seize power. Study the history of fascism and you will see exactly what I mean. This very idea violates what our founding fathers believed. Those of you who are scared by Muslims only prove your own ignorance.

As for creationism, its not science, period. It doesn't belong in a science class room. End of discussion. If you want to teach any creation stories have a mythology class, but make sure you include all of them not just the traditions of Abraham. Dont forget the karmic wheel, The Norse creation myths, Ancient Greek creation myth, etc...
 
  • #43
The Norse creation myths, Ancient Greek creation myth, etc

bah, those aren't real religions, there's only one true and living god...

and that's J.R. "Bob" Dobbs -praise "Bob"! May he bestow much slack upon my person :angel:
 
  • #44
bah, those aren't real religions, there's only one true and living god...

and that's J.R. "Bob" Dobbs -praise "Bob"! May he bestow much slack upon my person :angel:

I thought that prestigious title belonged to Barack H. Obama? :-))
 
  • #45
A politician? You've greatly under estimated my hatred for government and "the truth" as told to us by the infallible ones in all it's various forms. When Obama's pres I'll be poking at him like I do all the rest don't you worry. He just hasn't irritated me yet is all! Ya goitta know 'em before ya can hate 'em - that's the ethical way right? ;)

You've forgotten that I've already lambasted him for running out on the muslim americans back in some other debate post. Having his aides move the berkahd ladies off camera and telling our Muslim senator (Keith Ellison) not to visit the mosque in my dads neighborhood on an Obama campaign tour - which essentially put him (Ellison) in office. In order to play down the "Muslim angle" which so many people have had drilled into them by Fox News anchors and the Clinton campaign. Anyway politicians are all the same and eventually only deliver dissapointment to the individual. Having faith in a politician is like having faith in a god, it's nothing but empty promises.

For once I'm being serious by saying I place no one or their version of "reality" above my own.
 
  • #46
From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'
From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

And FINALLY the Most Damming one of ALL of them!!!

From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
These FALSE messages of obama have been circulating around forever. It's disgusting. First of all, Obama is not a muslim! most of those quotes are rewordings that change the meanings dramatically to make it seem like Barack is a self-declared racist. See this article on Snopes for what Obama actually said, and not the false interpretations:



http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ownwords.asp



There are many more emails just like it, spreading false messages in an attempt to discredit Obama. Don't accept them as solid fact just because someone else says they are. Oh, and of course this is all in good fun. I don't mean any hostility to anyone here. I'd just like to separate myth from fact.
 
  • #47
Various quotes have been incorrectly attributed to Obama in order to discredit him. The actual quote from the book that is supposedly about Muslims is from page 261 and is as follows:

"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Those who don't agree with the actual quote, please speak up.

By the way, the selection of Sarah Palin shows that John McCain's judgement is flawed.
 
  • #48
Various quotes have been incorrectly attributed to Obama in order to discredit him. The actual quote from the book that is supposedly about Muslims is from page 261 and is as follows:

"Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

WOW. I figured that the quotes were taken out of context, but that's painfully different. Thanks for quoting the whole thing.
 
  • #49
It's hard to jump on board this thread when it has already taken off!

That is EXACTLY how i feel! I think she is just a cheap attempt to pick up hilary and Alaskan voter.

While I do not necessarily consider it a cheap attempt, I do empathize with the sentament. I think it is a risky move, and I do think it is motivated by trying to pick up some of the democratic voters that are still angry over Hilary not being the nominee. I think it is risky, and I do not think it will pay off. I believe that the democratic ticket has much more overall "street cred" than the republican ticket; and I definitely do not think that she has more "experience" than Senator Obama.

The point about picking up Alaskan voters is a moot point, in my opinion; because Biden has Delaware (3 electoral votes) and Palin has Alaska (also 3 electoral votes) so it is pretty much a wash. Of course, I don't know what Alaskans typically vote, so I suppose if it was traditionally a republican state, it could be an extra three votes; but that is only if Alaskans are voting based on the VP spot.

i like that Palin is short on DC experiance....means she aint been touched by its back room politics......

I agree with your point about being an outsider; but, I don't think that is really going to help when she is trying to get work done.

What really makes me excited the most is Obama's college community service thing...

I agree with this proposal 10 times over. This could make the difference between a good society and a great society. Students that perform community service with relation to higher education have higher college satisfaction, higher engagement, and a plethora of other indicators that all point to higher four year graduation rates.

Obama wants more social programs and the only way to do that is to fund them with tax dollars.....how in the hell do you make more programs without raising taxes?

He did say that he would look through program list and cut the ones that aren't working, retool the ones that could work better and more efficiently. Creating new programs does not always mean raising taxes. If something isn't working, it needs to be cut (I think we can all agree on that). The main responsibility with social programs is fiscal responsibility.

On a personal note, I just have to say, when I look to a leader, I look for someone who is going to inspire me. The president should inspire the American people to want to do more for themselves and do more for the people around themselves. The job of the president isn't to appeal to the lowest common denominator; it is to help the population collectively raise it.

I look forward to the future, and recognize that life isn't easy. I recognize that in order for things to get better, everyone has to make sacrifices and dig in. Whatever president we have isn't going to return life back to easy street; but rather help us understand and provide opportunities for everyone to better himself or herself. Isn't that the American Dream?

Many years ago, there was a man from the former Persian (now Iran) that donated a total of 8 million dollars to build two scholarship halls at my former university. During the ribbon cutting of the first building, he said something along the lines of: "You can go anywhere in the world and you'll never hear about the German Dream, the French Dream, the Chinese Dream, or any other Dream. All you ever hear about is the American Dream. I came to this country with my brother, five dollars, and a bag full of dreams." To achieve the American Dream, you need hard work, help from others, and inspiration.

xvart.
 
  • #50
Originally Posted by Capslock
I don't find any of those quotes in the least bit troubling. The first ones are all just relating his thoughts and journey as a young person, both things he regrets and things he's proud of. It seems a bit disingenuous to pluck them out without context like that.

The last one isn't the least bit damning. I'm with him on it 100%. The American ideal is: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Among these rights is freedom of religion. Should the political winds shift in an ugly direction, and Muslims become deprived of this right, on that day I also will stand with the Muslims. I'd hope you would too, as it's the American thing to do.

Capslock
Well said.

This brings me to what my biggest problem with McCain is, and that is his support of further limiting civil liberties. This is a classic move from any group that wants to seize power. Study the history of fascism and you will see exactly what I mean. This very idea violates what our founding fathers believed. Those of you who are scared by Muslims only prove your own ignorance.

As for creationism, its not science, period. It doesn't belong in a science class room. End of discussion. If you want to teach any creation stories have a mythology class, but make sure you include all of them not just the traditions of Abraham. Dont forget the karmic wheel, The Norse creation myths, Ancient Greek creation myth, etc...

Very, very well said! If something awful does happen, our country needs to put aside the blatent racism we apparetnly still have and stand up for what our country truly is. The Land of the Free. Muslims are not an evil race. Some fo my best freinds are muslim, and i cannot stand the way people look at them. They are not terrorists. They are normal, God-loving people. If anything they love god more than the bible-thumping biggots who hate them most. I do not see them praying to god 7 times a day.

Creationalism has ABSOLUTELY no place in a public classroom. If you believe fairy tales, go to private Catholic/Christin/Other Religion schools and waste your money there. We cannot teach children something we cannot prove.

Those completely shameful emails are nothing more than plain rascism. They are all completely distorted, as Tropics beautifuly demostrated, and make me hate that i actually live in a country with people this stupid and down right racist.
 
  • #51
He did say that he would look through program list and cut the ones that aren't working, retool the ones that could work better and more efficiently. Creating new programs does not always mean raising taxes. If something isn't working, it needs to be cut (I think we can all agree on that). The main responsibility with social programs is fiscal responsibility.

On a personal note, I just have to say, when I look to a leader, I look for someone who is going to inspire me. The president should inspire the American people to want to do more for themselves and do more for the people around themselves. The job of the president isn't to appeal to the lowest common denominator; it is to help the population collectively raise it.

I look forward to the future, and recognize that life isn't easy. I recognize that in order for things to get better, everyone has to make sacrifices and dig in. Whatever president we have isn't going to return life back to easy street; but rather help us understand and provide opportunities for everyone to better himself or herself. Isn't that the American Dream?

Many years ago, there was a man from the former Persian (now Iran) that donated a total of 8 million dollars to build two scholarship halls at my former university. During the ribbon cutting of the first building, he said something along the lines of: "You can go anywhere in the world and you'll never hear about the German Dream, the French Dream, the Chinese Dream, or any other Dream. All you ever hear about is the American Dream. I came to this country with my brother, five dollars, and a bag full of dreams." To achieve the American Dream, you need hard work, help from others, and inspiration.

xvart.
Xvart how about you run for president. If Sarah Palin can be VP why aren't we all running for office. :-)) j/k.
 
  • #52
Well, I didn't like obama before I received that email. So its all good. My dislike of him is not because he is black. My dislike for him is because of what he stands for. He has no plans and cannot do what he is claiming he can do. All the power is in congress and there is NO president who will do anything in government alone.

I'm sorry but I don't know how Obama plans to make us energy independent without drilling and making more refineries to get us through until the alternative energy is more readily available. I also think he is going to make the price of things go up even higher if he starts taxing businesses even more. They are jsut going to pass on the taxes to the consumer.
 
  • #53
Putting whether or not Palin is experienced aside, from a political PR standpoint, I think she is a terrible choice for McCain. Her youth only undercuts his age and health concerns. All anyone is talking about now is "what if something happens to John McCain?" The age thing was made big by the media for a couple days, but nobody on the democratic spin horse made an issue out of it (that I am aware of) and it didn't go anywhere. Now McCain is putting it front and center, because that is all people are talking about (including his base). The problems this is causing are not even relevant to Palin, with the exception of the fact that she is on the ticket. They aren't talking about her, they are focusing on him and an issue that had been swept under the rug quickly.

Xvart how about you run for president. If Sarah Palin can be VP why aren't we all running for office. :-)) j/k.

Heh. Thanks. I think with all the choices I've made (both wise and poor) and learned from maybe I'm overqualified to represent the general population!

xvart.
 
  • #54
Am I the only one who when they saw the video of her and McCain when she was announced as his running mate think…”What the heck is Tina Fey doing up there?”

I bet SNL is kicking itself for not having Tina Fey on cast anymore to play Sarah Palin, she wouldn’t even need much in the way of costumes to play the part since they already look eerily similar to me already.

In my opinion I believe the choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate was mainly based on McCain’s need to be more competitive against Obama and a young woman on his ticket would help offset the perception of him as just another ol’ white guy. Having a woman on his ticket to go against Obama, plus to pick up democratic voters bitter over Hilary not getting the democrat nomination. I know those are not the official reasons behind McCain’s choice for his VP but that is just my immediate view on the choice.

Plus, I immediately cringe when someone said she is pro teaching creationism in school and anti equal rights for gays and lesbians. If you want to teach creationism, do it in an elective class based on religious beliefs, not in a science classroom. I want science with real science, not religion re-cast as a pseudo-science. Where would scientific progress be if pseudo-sciences were still accepted as valid science today? The whole point of science is testability. Sure while a lot of people believe in creationism how are you to test it? It is something you can neither prove nor disprove, which is the whole point of faith. If you want creationism taught as a science then that means you should drop faith in favor of facts and then what are you left with when religion is no longer based on faith?

Finally I think there should never be a question of equal rights, for anyone, Period.

I did not vote for George Bush, and will not vote for McCain either, even with a woman on his ticket to try to appeal to my own female solidarity. I would love a female in office, but only if her beliefs and policies would actually be best for the country. Sure she is only VP but presidents have died naturally and of malicious methods in office before and to be blunt…McCain ain’t no spring chick.
 
  • #55
In my opinion I believe the choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate was mainly based on McCain’s need to be more competitive against Obama and a young woman on his ticket would help offset the perception of him as just another ol’ white guy.

But aren't there several "better" female candidates out there that he could have (and should have) picked? Of course, this is only if he picked her for that reason only (which I don't believe; but, I do believe it was a major contributor).

I bet SNL is kicking itself for not having Tina Fey on cast anymore to play Sarah Palin, she wouldn’t even need much in the way of costumes to play the part since they already look eerily similar to me already.

Haha. Now that you mention it there is a striking resemblance.

xvart.
 
  • #56
Am I the only one who when they saw the video of her and McCain when she was announced as his running mate think…”What the heck is Tina Fey doing up there?”

I totally agree.


Plus, I immediately cringe when someone said she is pro teaching creationism in school

While they're at it, they should probably teach alchemy in place of chemistry.
 
  • #57
While they're at it, they should probably teach alchemy in place of chemistry.

Haha. "My economic plan is to turn the unlimited amount of worthless metal into unlimited amount of gold. That should help the dollar bounce back!"

xvart.
 
  • #58
While they're at it, they should probably teach alchemy in place of chemistry.

Dont forget we have to replace germ theory with curses and witchcraft. Pathogens those dont exists its mearly your neighbors bad thoughts about you, and then in criminal justice we have to ask "and what do we do with witches?"
 
  • #59
and then in criminal justice we have to ask "and what do we do with witches?"<!-- / message -->

A book was already written on what to do with them about 600 years ago (in the1400s): The Malleus Maleficarum:On the Prosecution of Witches by Kramer and Spence, it's still in print and available on amazon for the new inquisitiors to study. They're already doing the waterboarding, how about bringing back the rack, the strappado, the hot seat...? I mean, we have tasers now, but that takes away all the mystique and ceremony that the churchstate used to put into ritual torture with such zest and zeal.

Act Now! Get your copy today!
http://www.amazon.com/Malleus-Malef...d_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220177384&sr=8-2


Free melon baller with every order! ;)
 
  • #60
All the power is in congress and there is NO president who will do anything in government alone.

Tell that to the Bush administration.

My further two cents is the palin thing is a political grab.

As one of my favorite radio show hosts put it:

"If something happens to pops, do you really want SARAH PALIN!?(he always says it with the disbelief) sitting across the table from Vlad the Impaler Putin!?"
 
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