Actually those are all socialist ideas as roads and highways are not necessary we could all travel on dirt two tracts across other peoples land, thinking you deserve medical care is entitlement there goes hosipitals better call the witchdoctor. Parks public property for everyone to use that is maintained by the government that only exists if people think they deserve it. Also who said everyone has a right to an education whether its primary school, high school, or a university education we should make people pay for it all themselves so only the rich can read and write and know math and science otherwise we are being socialists and well thats something so many people are opposed to, so the schools have to go.
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Preview of Vice-Presidential Debate
- Thread starter Tropics
- Start date
Actually those are all socialist ideas as roads and highways are not necessary we could all travel on dirt two tracts across other peoples land, thinking you deserve medical care is entitlement there goes hosipitals better call the witchdoctor. Parks public property for everyone to use that is maintained by the government that only exists if people think they deserve it. Also who said everyone has a right to an education whether its primary school, high school, or a university education we should make people pay for it all themselves so only the rich can read and write and know math and science otherwise we are being socialists and well thats something so many people are opposed to, so the schools have to go.
Socialist and socialist aren't the same and it's the same as the difference between Democratic & democratic or Republican & republican. Socialist means Socialist party, with a specific agenda of government control of production and all that. Unfortunately, a lot of people use "socialist" to mean the same as the capitalized word, a mistake us Americans don't make with with democratic or republican. Others, including , Ktulu, Tropics and me, use it in the broadest sense of being something a government entity does instead of leaving it to private parties. Others throw the word like a molotov cocktail whenever they don't approve of something. The classic verbal bomb is to call something fascist, which is unfortunate because it means we can't use the word anymore for actual instances of fascism. Try to save the word for when it's appropriate and really needed.
It's more like a personal opinion. Back in 2000, before he was appointed president by the supreme court, I told my wife that if he was elected that one of his top priorities was to take out Saddam. I knew that because of one of the things that was considered his father greatest failures was not taking him out. So Bush jr wanted to finish what his daddy failed to do. Also Saddam put a hit out on his daddy, so it became even more personal. He JR was appointed , his whole cabinet were top military men. He knew what he wanted to do. He used the blood of the people that died on 9/11 to settle his score. He put more effort in Iraq than Bin Laddan. If he had put half of that money and effort in Afganastan, Alqeida and Bin Laddan would be dead and gone now. I think this makes him guilty of treason, and the penalty for treason is death. I think every person that lost a family member on 9/11 should be outraged by what he has done.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Ozzy
Bush killed thousands of Americans.
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A ludicrous and false statement.
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Casualties in Iraq
The Human Cost of Occupation[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Edited by Margaret Griffis :: Contact[/FONT] <table border="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td colspan="3">
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]American Military Casualties in Iraq
[/FONT]
</td></tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="45%"> [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Date[/FONT]
</td><td bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="25%"> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Total[/FONT]
</td><td bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="30%"> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Combat[/FONT]
</td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3"> <script src="http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/casualties-main.js"></script> <script src="http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/style-main.js"></script><style type="text/css">.casualties { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; width: 100%; } .casualties-title { text-align: center; font-size: 25px; } .casualties-total-header { text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; } .casualties-total-label { text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-total-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-since-label { text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-since-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-wounded {text-align: left; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-label { text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } .casualties-combat-value { text-align: center; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; } </style> <script src="http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/template-main1.js"></script></td></tr><tr class="casualties"><td class="casualties-total-label" width="50%">American Deaths</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%"> </td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%"></td></tr><tr class="casualties"><td class="casualties-total-label" width="50%">Since war began (3/19/03):</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">4177</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">3383</td></tr><tr class="casualties-total"> <td class="casualties-since-label" width="50%">
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) ([FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the list)[/FONT]
</td><td class="casualties-since-value" width="25%"><center>4038</center></td><td class="casualties-since-value"><center>3275</center></td></tr><tr class="casualties-total"><td class="casualties-total-label" width="50%">Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03):</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">3716</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">3077</td></tr><tr class="casualties-total"><td class="casualties-total-label" width="50%">Since Handover (6/29/04):</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">3311</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">2758</td></tr><tr class="casualties-wounded"><td class="casualties-total-label" width="50%">Since Election (1/31/05):</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">2731</td><td class="casualties-total-value" width="25%">2496</td></tr><tr class="casualties-wounded"><td class="casualties-total-label" bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="45%">American Wounded</td><td class="casualties-total-value" bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="25%">Official</td><td class="casualties-total-value" bgcolor="#eeeeee" width="30%">Estimated</td></tr><tr class="casualties-wounded"><td class="casualties-combat-wounded" width="50%">Total Wounded:</td><td class="casualties-combat-value" width="25%">30680</td><td class="casualties-combat-value" width="25%">Over 100000</td></tr><tr class="casualties"> <td colspan="3" class="casualties-since-label" width="100%">Latest Fatality Oct. 1, 2008
</td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3"> <center> [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Page last updated 10/3/08 11:55 am EDT [/FONT][/FONT] </center></td></tr></tbody></table>http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Ozzy
Bush killed tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands non Americans.
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Another distorted and warped statement.
Documented civilian deaths from violence
88,036 – 96,104
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Ozzy
Bush let the people that killed 4000 Americans go free.
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More like the people that killed 4,000 Americans went into hiding in caves and other bordering countries.
And then bush turned his back and used the terroist attacks to attack Iraq. He still let them go.
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Bush has almost bankrupted our country.
Importing $700 Billion dollars of foreign oil has done more to bankrupt our economy.
True, but bush economic policies has taken a huge effect on our country. He's backrupt every business he's ever ran. He headed an oil company that couldn't find oil in Texas. When he owned the Rangers, he traded Sammy Sosa. Now he's almost ran our economy into the ground.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Ozzy
I consider anybody that would do even half of these things severely retarded.
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Your opinion is based on spite, hatred and emotion and not reason.
Yes my opinion is based on spite, hatred, emotion and reason. I've stated a few reasons, but I have plenty more. Some of them personal.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Ozzy
Almost all of McCains policies are identical to Bush's.
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Explain why his voting record is less with Bush, while Obama's is 96% with his party. Also it isn't news that McCain and Bush have had it out in regards to policies, especially with Iraq. Your attempt to tie McCain to Bush is nothing but groundless Obama propaganda.
Here's the way MSNBC put's it.
Oh poor bush jr. He created most of what he has went through by invading Iraq.
Dead wrong. I remember what we have been trough. We were attacted and Bush turned his back on the American people.
No he made it his mission to take out Saddam. It was eight years between the first Trade Center attack and 9/11. So I guess Clinton did a great job of preventing another attack too.
I know that our problems run deeper than Iraq, but Iraq made everything A LOT worse.
Bush's own party has turned against him. They didn't even want him at the republican convention.
I think right wing Bill O'reilly says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDou01X5d28
Chicago has had murder problems for years and if we sent in 16,000 troops I bet we could really lower the crime rate in Chicago, but invading a US city might not go so well. The point I am trying to make here is that the US deaths in Iraq never would have happened if the US hadnt invaded, the murders in Chicago would have happened at about the same rate regardless of if we went to war with Iraq. In fact if you track the FBI compiled murder rates from 2000-2007 (628/100k to 442/100k) there has been a steady decline over time so what your saying is pure garbage and means absolutely nothing .
weither they are declining or not more Americans were still murdered in Chicago than Iraq in the last 6 months......just putting things in perspective.....the number of American deaths in Iraq has been declining over the same time period aswell......
push comes to shove i would have prefered us to drop a nuke on Bagdad while Saddam was having dinner back in the early 90's....be a whole lot less messy and get a point across damn quick.....aint nessisarily happy we are there but a rapid extraction is going to cause more problems now that we are there......we likely aint going to be their much longer....McCains words have been twisted when he said we would be there along time.....in all reality we are still in Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipienes ect we will likely have a military presence their for a long damn time but we aint going to be nessisarily "at war".........
what i would have prefered to see post 9/11 was small tactical strikes on those funding the terrorists in Iraq, Iran and Saudi and the terrorists themselves rooted out of Afganistan.......but that aint what happened and we have to deal with what we did do......contrary to what the main stream media has fed you reenlistment percentages are at a very high rate in the armed forces....my cousin is getting ready to go for his third tour in the sand box and after having tweny years in he could got out after the first or second........
push comes to shove i would have prefered us to drop a nuke on Bagdad while Saddam was having dinner back in the early 90's....be a whole lot less messy and get a point across damn quick.....aint nessisarily happy we are there but a rapid extraction is going to cause more problems now that we are there......we likely aint going to be their much longer....McCains words have been twisted when he said we would be there along time.....in all reality we are still in Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipienes ect we will likely have a military presence their for a long damn time but we aint going to be nessisarily "at war".........
what i would have prefered to see post 9/11 was small tactical strikes on those funding the terrorists in Iraq, Iran and Saudi and the terrorists themselves rooted out of Afganistan.......but that aint what happened and we have to deal with what we did do......contrary to what the main stream media has fed you reenlistment percentages are at a very high rate in the armed forces....my cousin is getting ready to go for his third tour in the sand box and after having tweny years in he could got out after the first or second........
I can't remember the last time I saw/heard anything about re-enlistment rates in the mainstream media. There was a lot for a while about the stop-loss program preventing people from leaving when they wanted, but I haven't seen anything recently. Iraq has vanished as an issue because one party wants it that way and the other party thinks it has a better chance if it just flogs the first party with the economy. With the economy what it is, I expect re-enlistment rates to stay pretty high because other options aren't looking so good right now.
As for the rate of US fatalities in Iraq, that's always been a red herring, whether someone claims it's high or that it's low. The rate of mental/physical trauma is much worse and it'll be a serious problem as time goes by. A lot of people will return needing help and, not only will they not get it, there'll be few prospects for them to do anything else.
As for the rate of US fatalities in Iraq, that's always been a red herring, whether someone claims it's high or that it's low. The rate of mental/physical trauma is much worse and it'll be a serious problem as time goes by. A lot of people will return needing help and, not only will they not get it, there'll be few prospects for them to do anything else.
you know i have my doubts on this but ive only got experiance of it through my buddy.....he joined up after the first Iraq war in '92, spent 4 years in and was Army Airborne with emphasis on Arctic Warfare, he jumped out of planes and played in the snow.....never saw combat though, never left the states......4 months ago he tweaked his back and herniated a disk.....told him was likely related to jumping out of a plane so many dang times causing a weakened spot that finally let go though there is no way to prove it....seems the military agrees and he is having surgery next week......going to cost him $50 co-pay and you and me and other tax-payers are picking up the rest....
yep our boys over in the sand box are going to be chit on as far as medical care.......i have a hard time believing that given what ive seen of the system......
I think Herenorthere was referring to the psychological effects fighting the occupation of Iraq will cause. I know a few people personally that I am pretty sure have low levels of PTSD but they dont think they do so they do not receive treatment like they should. These costs on the american society as a whole will be with us for decades to come and the military is not doing a good enough job of screening people upon their return from the combat zones.
i can read.....he also includes physical......as far as the mental.....what yah want to do? lock all returning soldiers up for 6 months after returning from the sandbox? its very hard to treat someone that doesnt want help but if they do want it there is things availible for them......couple local guys i knew that came back shortly before the 4th of July the last few years have had a hard time dealing with fireworks......they have chosen to wait it out instead of seeking help though its available to them.......i aint big on a nanny state, i feel confident that the boys coming back can get help if they want it......if they chose not to seek it out at the request of family and friends who see it when they dont, well im not to big on tossing them in a hospital if they dont want to be there.....its a free country and its their choice......and they above all others have earned the right to make that choice.....
JB_OrchidGuy
Cardiac Nurse
I have a hard time grasping some peoples views on politics sometimes. Like Bush=McCain, and the people who believe Obama is actually going to give a tax cut. His idea of a tax cut is another credit like the 600 dollars we got from Bush in the stimulus package. His tax break will be a one time deal and have no long term effect. Oh it will buy him votes because those who do not even have any tax liability will also get about 1000 dollars. So of course many like it because of that fact. I just don't believe they know the entire picture of him.
Those who believe that McCain is different from Bush would make a better case if, instead of just saying they are different, they gave details of how McCain's positions on issues, such as Iraq and the economy, differ from Bush's policies.
Although McCain's tax plan calls for a tax cut for the average taxpayer in every income group , high-income taxpayers would benefit more than everyone else. Under Obama's tax plan, high-income taxpayers ($227K and above) would pay more in taxes, and those earning under $112K would have a bigger tax cut than under McCain's plan.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061113
Sarah Palin invoked the ghost of Ronald Regan several times during the debate, referring to a Regan quote in her closing statement. That Regan quote is from a long time ago, even before he was running for President, when he argued against Medicare. He said it would lead to socialism. Maybe so, but I don't know anyone under Medicare who wants to abolish it.
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=759836
Although McCain's tax plan calls for a tax cut for the average taxpayer in every income group , high-income taxpayers would benefit more than everyone else. Under Obama's tax plan, high-income taxpayers ($227K and above) would pay more in taxes, and those earning under $112K would have a bigger tax cut than under McCain's plan.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postversion=2008061113
Sarah Palin invoked the ghost of Ronald Regan several times during the debate, referring to a Regan quote in her closing statement. That Regan quote is from a long time ago, even before he was running for President, when he argued against Medicare. He said it would lead to socialism. Maybe so, but I don't know anyone under Medicare who wants to abolish it.
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=759836
So much to respond to, so little time. So... I'll just make it brief.
It looks like Obama might not even be an American citizen:
http://obamacrimes.com
It looks like Obama might not even be an American citizen:
http://obamacrimes.com
The point about psychological trauma is well said. This is by far one of the worst problems from wars. The school I work for has a lot of students that have served in active duty or are enlisted in the marines. I serve on a team that helps identify potential students that may unintentionally or intentionally cause harm to themselves or others, and we have a lot of discussions about students with PTSD from the war. There is definitely no accountability when it comes to making sure our troops come home to a supportive environment that will help them reintegrate with society.
lol. Good point.
lol?
xvart.
lol. Good point.
lol?
xvart.
Hahaha, sorry sir, I think you're confused. You must be thinking of the 5000 dollars that McCain wants to give each family so they can buy their own health insurance. :chuckle:
Read about it at the McCain website.
McCain’s website on health care is revealing. It reveals that he is concerned about Americans with pre-existing conditions who cannot find insurance at an affordable price. But McCain’s website also reveals that he has no specific plan that would enable these Americans to have access to affordable insurance. In addition, his website reveals that he is concerned about a variety of health care issues, such as treating chronic diseases, expanding the use of information technology, reforming the Medicare and Medicaid payment system, and the impending long term care crisis. But McCain’s website also reveals that he has no specific plans to solve any of these problems.
there is a motion filed the the Virginia courts i believe to force Obama to show his birth certificate, actually IIRC if he dont produce it today he is in contempt of court......funny thing is rather than produce it like a normal person he hired a high priced legal team........i take issue with this mainly cause it takes me all of about 5 minutes to get a legal copy of mine from a backwoods Montana court house, infact i can get one from ANY county court house in the state and i have had to show it to about 100 ppl i do not know for various reasons........
but one thing to note...his mom could not have been in Hawaii to give birth to him cause she wasnt allowed on any flights out of Kenya due to her being so late in her pregnancy which was actually fairly common to prevent births on flights but since she was a US citizen this could have been over come once she got to the states and could get him registered, but it doesnt appear that she did....another thing that school he went to in Indonesia when he was a kid, only way to enter it is to renounce you citizenship to any country but Indonesia.....once again a minor thing due to his mom being a US citizen, since he was back in the states before his 18th birthday he could have become a US citizen.....well officially for the first time it appears.....but once again it looks like his mother didnt do it and neither did he......when he entered Harvard he listed his citizenship as Indonesian.........so it appears to alot of ppl the man is an Indonesian citizen but instead of producing his birth certificate and prove the fact he has hired a high priced legal team thats done everything they can to stall it........but i was waiting to see what happens in the courts to post this
Isn't this amazing Rattler? It actually doesn't surprise me given that his ideas and positions are not American. This just goes to show that we DO NOT KNOW who Obama really is. If he truly is an American citizen, why would he hesitate to cough up the proof? Why fight it? Just provide the records and bat it down.
Also note that the attorney who is going after Obama's records is a Democrat himself:
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76933
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
If any McCain supporter is thinking about making the argument that Hawaii was not yet a state when Obama was born there in 1961, just remember that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Anyway, Hawaii became a state in 1959. Only one parent an American citizen? Neither parent need be an American citizen if the child is born in the USA. McCain supporters are wasting their time hoping that Obama is not a natural born American citizen.
If any McCain supporter is thinking about making the argument that Hawaii was not yet a state when Obama was born there in 1961, just remember that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Anyway, Hawaii became a state in 1959. Only one parent an American citizen? Neither parent need be an American citizen if the child is born in the USA. McCain supporters are wasting their time hoping that Obama is not a natural born American citizen.
