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Thread: Post VP debate thread

  1. #41

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    Rattler, that video is exteremly biased and it ignored the fact that repubs controlled the government form 1994-2006. So if they really wanted to do something about it they could have. It also doesnt take into account the falling value of the dollar which was directly related to pouring of billions of dollars into Iraq which McCain supported, and inflation hit the economy hard as our economy is very dependent on imports. It implied that the price of energy was some how effected by subprime morgrages which I dont really understand. Plus it is based solely on correlations not facts as it claims. No direct relationships were shown other than politicians took money from Fannie and Freddi for their campaigns, which we all know is nothing new. Now I am not going to say either side is to blame, THE ARE ALL TO BLAME, both parties did things that contributed to this problem.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

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    The Republicans are blaming the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) for the nationwide (and now worldwide) financial crisis and the impending economic disaster. It wasn't long ago when Republicans were ridicuing community organizers. Republicans changed their campaign strategy when they realized that Obama would be put in a worse light if voters thought of him as a terrorist who was trying to destroy America rather than an impotent do-gooder. The truth is that neither is correct. And the truth won't deter the Republicans in the least, as they will begin to tell more lies about Obama since they have failed to successfully challenge him on the issues. Voters see that the financial/economic crisis is the result of deregulation, which Republicans worshipped -- at least up to a couple of weeks ago. McCain's positions on economic issues are virtually the same as Bush's policies. Lacking a viable economic program, Republicans are desperate.

  3. #43
    rattler's Avatar
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    once again i will say the videos i posted pointed out individuals and not a party........and for the record i got no problems voting democrat.....i like my democrat governor......my issue is with individuals and not a party.........

    and it ignored the fact that repubs controlled the government form 1994-2006.
    like to know what the last vote that was demos versus repubs.......i generally see a mix of both on both sides......
    cervid serial killer
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  4. #44

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    This was from an e-mail I received, brings some interesting points.

    George Bush has been in office for 7 1/2 years. The first six the economy was fine.

    A little over one year ago:
    1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
    2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
    3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
    4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +
    5) American's were buying new cars,taking cruises, vacations overseas, living large!...

    But American's wanted 'CHANGE'! So, in 2006 they voted in a Democratic Congress and yes--we got 'CHANGE' all right. In the PAST YEAR:

    1) Consumer confidence has plummeted;
    2) Gasoline is now over $4 a gallon & climbing!;
    3) Unemployment is up to 5.5% (a 10% increase);
    4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12 TRILLION DOLLARS and prices still dropping;
    5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
    6) As I write, THE DOW is probing another low~~
    $2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR STOCKS, BONDS & MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIOS!

    YES, IN 2006 AMERICA VOTED FOR CHANGE...AND WE SURE GOT IT! ....

    REMEMBER THE PRESIDENT HAS NO CONTROL OVER ANY OF THESE ISSUES, ONLY CONGRESS. AND WHAT HAS CONGRESS DONE IN THE LAST TWO YEARS? Read 1-6 above…again!

    NOW THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT CLAIMS HE IS GOING TO REALLY GIVE US CHANGE ALONG WITH A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS!!!!

    JUST HOW MUCH MORE 'CHANGE' DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STAND?
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  5. #45
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    I've been out of town and I remember reading on my phone something about Obama/Biden always talking about George Bush and I can't remember if it was in this thread or not, but I suppose it's appropriate to discuss it here anyway. What everyone is talking about, when Biden went off about George Bush and change is completely justifiable. The response came directly after a question about George Bush's presidency, so I think it is certainly within the realm of plausibility that Biden talk about Bush. Of course, they talk a lot about Bush in their stump speeches and other parts of the debate, but Biden made a good point that we haven't heard how he is different. I don't even really know the nuts and bolts of his economic plans and health care plans. I know there are some plans out there in some form or another, but his campaign has done a terrible job of getting whatever that message is out there. Maybe they are too busy playing in the moment and trying to divert attention...

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    It was pointed out that the moderation system was rather lax for this debate.
    That's one thing I'm always disappointed with. The moderators never hold the candidates accountable for actually answering the questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by joossa View Post
    Maybe it was just me, but Palin seemed overly rehearsed.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by joossa View Post
    Personally, I don't like Palin's homeyness; it adds frosting to her inexperienced-based cake.
    I also agree. Every single time I hear her say "hockey moms" or "joe six pack" I want to cringe and think are there people that actually relate to her better because of this? I don't want a hockey mom or a joe six pack in office. I don't want me in office. I want someone smarter than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    yah know if Obama would just say......"I believe everyone in the US needs to have health insurance and it may require everyone pitching in a bit to do it for the betterment" i would have alot more faith in him on that, i wouldnt agree with him but i would have less issues with him on it.
    I agree one hundred percent here, Rattler. It baffles me that a politician wouldn't just come out and say "it's time to dig in, we all need to make some sacrifices." I do think Palin did start down this road when she started talking about not spending outside our means, but she didn't hit the nail on the head.

    xvart.
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    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  6. #46
    rattler's Avatar
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    So Joe, who was President of The United States in 1929? He can't even get that right... This guy is DANGEROUS... He want's to be Vice President, and he doesn't even know what a Vice President does... That is rich...
    Don

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433314,00.html

    Did Biden Get It Wrong? You Betcha
    Monday, October 06, 2008

    By John R. Lott, Jr.

    When you interview for a job, here is a hint: make sure you know what the job is. Joe Biden failed that test last Thursday. He couldn’t even get right what a vice president does, but the media didn’t notice.

    The media is all over itself about how smart and experienced Biden is. Political analyst Charlie Cook is quoted in the Washington Post on Saturday as saying “Biden is clearly so much more knowledgeable, by a factor of about a million.” Saturday Night Live does a skit about Biden being smart, if slimy. Meanwhile, Governor Sarah Palin is treated as being nothing more than a simpleton.

    Yet, take Biden’s statement from the debate on the role of the vice president:

    Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

    And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.

    The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive, and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.

    One should be careful when throwing around terms such as “most dangerous” and “bizarre.” But Biden is confusing which part of the Constitution covers the Executive Branch (it is Article II, not Article I). More importantly, the notion that the vice president can preside over the Senate only when there is a tie vote is simply wrong. Nor is it true that the only legislative involvement the vice president has is to break tie votes. The vice president is the president of the Senate, where he interprets the rules and can only be overridden by a vote of 60 senators.

    Early vice presidents spent a lot of time in the Senate. Thomas Jefferson even spent his time writing “A Manual of Parliamentary Practice: for the Use of the Senate of the United States.” Modern vice presidents may show up only when they think tie votes will occur, but that is their choice.

    This isn’t rocket science. The Constitution on this point is very straightforward: “The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.”

    Instead, it was Palin who got it right. Besides correctly stating that the vice president holds positions in both the executive and legislative branches, she also noted that:

    Of course, we know what a vice president does. And that's not only to preside over the Senate and [i] will take that position very seriously also. I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chooses to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are.

    But just as the vice president’s job includes more than simply being ready to assume the presidency if the president dies, the Constitution merely states what the vice president’s minimum responsibilities are.

    Compare the uproar over Palin’s answer to Charlie Gibson about the “Bush Doctrine,” a doctrine that Gibson clearly didn’t understand and for which there apparently exist at least four different versions. Where is the outrage over Biden not understanding what vice presidents do? For Biden, his inability to correctly say what vice presidents do was surely his “gotcha” moment.

    Yet, this mistake during the debate was hardly unique. Biden got a lot of things wrong in the debate that are going unnoticed by the fact-check media. Take just a few:

    -- Will McCain's health care proposals raise taxes? Biden says that McCain’s proposal will cost people money. The Tax Foundation finds that could easily be "roughly deficit-neutral over ten years."

    -- Under an Obama Administration the middle class will "pay no more than they did under Ronald Reagan"? No, the tax rates will be similar to the higher rates under Clinton.

    -- Did "we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country"? No, one year’s worth of spending in Iraq equaled five in Afghanistan.

    -- France and the U.S. "kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon"? No, and it wouldn't have made much more sense if he had said "Syria" instead.

    -- Is it really “simply not true” that Obama said that he would meet with the leader of countries such as Iran without preconditions? No, Obama said “I would.”

    -- Did Obama warn against letting Hamas participate in Palestinian legislative elections in 2005? No.

    -- Do “Iraqis have an $80 billion surplus”? No. If oil prices had remained high, it might have reached $50 billion by the end of this year.

    -- Finally, an amusing point as evidence that Biden is just one of the people he pointed to, inviting anyone to have a beer with him at "Katie's Restaurant" in Wilmington, Del. Unfortunately, people will have a hard time taking him up on his offer, since the restaurant hasn't had that name for probably 15 years.

    Unfortunately, voters who are trying to get an accurate count on whether the candidates are telling the truth can’t rely on the media. FactCheck.org mentions only one of these points, the size of the Iraqi surplus. The Washington Post mentioned Biden’s misstatement on Hamas and Katie’s restaurant. AOL’s coverage of the errors in the vice presidential debate was by far the worst, though that might not be too surprising given that Tommy Christopher, who wrote their news analysis, also blogs on the Obama Web site. None of these checkers mentioned Biden's statements about the role of the vice president.

    Compare this to the attacks on Sarah Palin:

    -- FactCheck.org criticizes Palin for claiming that McCain’s health care tax credits will be "budget neutral" – they argue that the tax credit will be larger than the new taxes that the program will impose. Fine, but if the people at FactCheck.org believe that is true and that the Tax Foundation is wrong, Biden’s claim about increased taxes is even more inaccurate. But FactCheck.org doesn't even mention Biden’s statement from the debate.

    -- From AOL's news analysis piece. “Palin: Said that it is untrue that the U.S. is killing civilians in Afghanistan. According to an analysis by the AP, however, the U.S. is killing more civilians than insurgents are.”

    What Palin actually said was: “Now, Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians.” Whether one believes the AP estimate or not, the question is whether she was accurately characterizing Obama’s statement of the job that our forces were doing. And Obama said, “We’ve got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we’re not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians” (emphasis added).

    -- FactCheck.org’s first critique claims that Palin was wrong to claim that troop levels in Iraq are down to their pre-surge levels. They are correct that after the recently announced drawdown, 6,000 more troops will be in Iraq than immediately before the surge. But why not mention that 84 percent of the 38,000 troops in the surge are home or are in the process of coming home?

    The media seems to have been covering for Biden for some time. While news stories still talk about Dan Quayle’s spelling mistake 18 years later, there has been almost no news coverage of Biden’s numerous wacky statements. What if Quayle had said something similar to Biden’s recent statement that, "When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'" A neat trick given that Herbert Hoover was president in 1929 and television was not yet invented.

    It might not fit the simple template for a 36-year veteran of the Senate to not understand what vice presidents do (after all, eight vice presidents have served with him), but Biden knew less about this than the political outsider, Sarah Palin. Given that they are running to be vice president, why didn’t that story dominate the news coverage after the debate?


    John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scholar at the University of Maryland.

    _________________________________________________________________

    And, From today's Wall Street Journal:

    Biden's Fantasy World
    Sarah Palin may not know as much about the world, but at least most of what she knows is true.

    In the popular media wisdom, Sarah Palin is the neophyte who knows nothing about foreign policy while Joe Biden is the savvy diplomatic pro. Then what are we to make of Mr. Biden's fantastic debate voyage last week when he made factual claims that would have got Mrs. Palin mocked from New York to Los Angeles?

    Start with Lebanon, where Mr. Biden asserted that "When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, 'Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.' Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel."

    The U.S. never kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, and no one else has either. Perhaps Mr. Biden meant to say Syria, except that the U.S. also didn't do that. The Lebanese ousted Syria's military in 2005. As for NATO, Messrs. Biden and Obama may have proposed sending alliance troops in, but if they did that was also a fantasy. The U.S. has had all it can handle trying to convince NATO countries to deploy to Afghanistan.

    Speaking of which, Mr. Biden also averred that "Our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan." In trying to correct him, Mrs. Palin mispronounced the general's name -- saying "General McClellan" instead of General David McKiernan. But Mr. Biden's claim was the bigger error, because General McKiernan said that while "Afghanistan is not Iraq," he also said a "sustained commitment" to counterinsurgency would be required. That is consistent with Mr. McCain's point that the "surge principles" of Iraq could work in Afghanistan.

    Then there's the Senator's astonishing claim that Mr. Obama "did not say he'd sit down with Ahmadinejad" without preconditions. Yet Mr. Biden himself criticized Mr. Obama on this point in 2007 at the National Press Club: "Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was elected President? Absolutely, positively no."

    Or how about his rewriting of Bosnia history to assert that John McCain didn't support President Clinton in the 1990s. "My recommendations on Bosnia, I admit I was the first one to recommend it. They saved tens of thousands of lives. And initially John McCain opposed it along with a lot of other people. But the end result was it worked."

    Mr. Biden's immodesty aside, Mr. McCain supported Mr. Clinton on Bosnia, as did Bob Dole even as he was running against him for President in 1996 -- in contrast to the way Mr. Biden and Democratic leaders have tried to undermine President Bush on Iraq.

    Closer to home, the Delaware blarney stone also invited Americans to join him at "Katie's restaurant" in Wilmington to witness middle-class struggles. Just one problem: Katie's closed in the 1980s. The mistake is more than a memory lapse because it exposes how phony is Mr. Biden's attempt to pose for this campaign as Lunchbucket Joe.

    We think the word "lie" is overused in politics today, having become a favorite of the blogosphere and at the New York Times. So we won't say Mr. Biden was deliberately making events up when he made these and other false statements. Perhaps he merely misspoke. In any case, Mrs. Palin may not know as much about the world as Mr. Biden does, but at least most of what she knows is true.
    cervid serial killer
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    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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  7. #47
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    I for one do not care who was is to blame for the economic problems. Democrats, republicans, whatnot. Its always the other party. Its funny, many people are very partisan but we complain when the partisan people we elect act partisan in congress…

    The thing people should focus on is how we fix the current situation. A large part of this current issue seems to be related to the housing situation, and you can not blame that on any one party. And this issue has been building for some time so blaming whoever runs the show now may be easy but… not exactly accurate.


    But American's wanted 'CHANGE'! So, in 2006 they voted in a Democratic Congress and yes--we got 'CHANGE' all right. In the PAST YEAR:

    1) Consumer confidence has plummeted;
    2) Gasoline is now over $4 a gallon & climbing!;
    3) Unemployment is up to 5.5% (a 10% increase);
    4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12 TRILLION DOLLARS and prices still dropping;
    5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
    6) As I write, THE DOW is probing another low~~
    $2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR STOCKS, BONDS & MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIOS!
    Yes, all of these things never existed or were not a problem till democrtas became in charge... the year before oil was 25 cents a gallon and there was no such thing as a housing bubble. Blaming Bush totally is not exactly fair either.
    that makes no logic

  8. #48
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    I loved it. Palin got slammed. She didnít embarrass herself for one reason; sheís a maverick who has a lot of exp. being an Alaskan mayor, governor, and oil executive. Thatís all the idiot said! She dodged the real question oh, I dunno, 50 times?

    Hopefully her true self will come across to the public. She seems to be a nice enough normal woman, but I do not want my friends mom running the country. She is an "average American". I donít want an average person to be president (one heartbeat away!)! I want someone better & smarter than me to be president, which is obviously not her!

    I was very happy how well biden did, and the 2 or 3 slam dunks he got in. Parties aside, you had to be a little touched when he choked up about his sons.

    Anyway, good job Senator Biden!
    I am sorry you must not be very smart then. I am smart enough to be president. There are plenty of people smart enough to be president. That is the problem with the presidents we have had in the past. They feel they are smarter and the only one who can do the job. You need an average person in office, or else your going to continue to have the disconnect with the average person. Biden got slammed a few times in the debate to, but your not even talking about that. Biden looked like a bumbling idiot to me several times.

    Personally I want someone who has a good connect to the "Average person" how else are the things that matter to YOU and ME, the "Average" people, going to get done? Obama is catering to the welfare crowd just like every dem has done. They say things like "I don;t care if you don't work. I still want to give you $1000 for your vote" That is what I hear with everything Obama says. I want to take from the rich and give it to the deadbeats who refuse to work hard to get ahead.
    JB
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