Lets forget about the number of spins and tangents this topic has taken, does anybody want to try and actually disprove these charges on Obama and ACORN? Or do all of you Obama supporters accept this, just as you accept all the other radical connections Obama has such as Rev. Wright, and Ayers? I mean seriously, how much dirt can you throw over your shoulder before you start noticing a mound? What was it that Obama promised you in a speech that can allow you to ignore all these alarming connections? Do you hate America as much as Obama and his friends do?
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Obama and ACORN, the truth.
- Thread starter Outsiders71
- Start date
True Jim, I surely don't have any probs with folks who just happen to be Christians (or whatever religion) I myself study many forms of mysticism as one of my hobbies, what I take issue with is the folks in government who wanna run our lives according to their personal religious ideals. Religion is personal and has no place in governmental edicts yet the neo-conservatives insist it is their form of religious governance which was given to them by God and attempt to rule in this manner by passing certain laws which all must follow, not just those in their religion. America has never had rule by Hobbesian "Divine Right", nor do I anticipate such a turn of events.
Outsiders, America is not a "Christian country" - this is myth propagated by the religious right. Many of the founding fathers were Freemasons who are in turn, students of worldwide mysticism (hence the Illuminated Eye in the Pyramid on the money). "Nature's God" which is mentioned in some early American documents is not the same as the Judeo-Christian god, it's a Masonic term. Have you not read the Treaty with Tripoli signed by John Adams? If Not here is a link to it from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/TreatyofTripoli.gif Scroll to Article 11. the excerpt is as follows:
"Art. 11. As the Government of The United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Chrstian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan Nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The treaty was signed by all members of the senate with no dissenting voices to any article.
I made a point of mentioning both the Poor and Blacks... you don't have to be black to be poor. If you are poor, don't have a job and you need help why not ask for it? The worst they can say is no or cut you off if you are one of those dirt bags who abuses it. Nobody of good conscience LIKES being on welfare, I certainly wasn't pleased about being on unemployment back in 2001 but I'm sure glad I was able to get it when I got laid off from one job until I found the job I've had now for 6+ years. If I hadn't had that check every 2 weeks I wouldn't have been able to pay on my car til I got the new job. Hence, I wouldn't be driving to a job today. How'd you like to be paying my way, knowing what a "commie fag junkie" I am? lol
Anyway, ACORN helps people get on welfare and social security as well assists with other inner city community projects and I philosophically support them and their work as I've said, I see nothing wrong with helping people when they need it. This fiasco with the voter registrations is certainly regrettable and I'm sure with handwriting analysis the FBI and state dept will be able to locate the individuals in the organization who did this. If indeed it was done by ACORN and not some "freelancer" pretending to be working for ACORN. like a Republican looking to thwart new voter regs. It wouldn't surprise me at all as they say, the fewer people who vote always works out well for the Republicans. If they could get anything with ACORN written on it tossed out, in all those "battle ground" states wouldn't that be nice? As George WIll said "It shouldn't matter the quantity of votes a candidate gets but the quality of the votes they get." Maybe we could flash our W2s at the polling stations, and if we don't make enough we don't get to vote!
The US spends far more on weaponry and getting its tendrils into every country than would cost to give everyone healthcare. I would much rather my tax $ goes to welfare, fixing bridges and roads, levees, etc. than bombs and domestic & international espionage. As far as you helping Katrina victims - good for you - that's very admirable. A woman I work with hosted a family up here. Though I don't see a difference between one kind of help and another. When someone needs help they don't care how they get it or where it comes from, so long as it comes.
BTW please tattoo this on your brain I'm no liberal - I'm a libertine. "No Gods, No Masters!"
Outsiders, America is not a "Christian country" - this is myth propagated by the religious right. Many of the founding fathers were Freemasons who are in turn, students of worldwide mysticism (hence the Illuminated Eye in the Pyramid on the money). "Nature's God" which is mentioned in some early American documents is not the same as the Judeo-Christian god, it's a Masonic term. Have you not read the Treaty with Tripoli signed by John Adams? If Not here is a link to it from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/TreatyofTripoli.gif Scroll to Article 11. the excerpt is as follows:
"Art. 11. As the Government of The United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Chrstian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan Nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The treaty was signed by all members of the senate with no dissenting voices to any article.
I made a point of mentioning both the Poor and Blacks... you don't have to be black to be poor. If you are poor, don't have a job and you need help why not ask for it? The worst they can say is no or cut you off if you are one of those dirt bags who abuses it. Nobody of good conscience LIKES being on welfare, I certainly wasn't pleased about being on unemployment back in 2001 but I'm sure glad I was able to get it when I got laid off from one job until I found the job I've had now for 6+ years. If I hadn't had that check every 2 weeks I wouldn't have been able to pay on my car til I got the new job. Hence, I wouldn't be driving to a job today. How'd you like to be paying my way, knowing what a "commie fag junkie" I am? lol
Anyway, ACORN helps people get on welfare and social security as well assists with other inner city community projects and I philosophically support them and their work as I've said, I see nothing wrong with helping people when they need it. This fiasco with the voter registrations is certainly regrettable and I'm sure with handwriting analysis the FBI and state dept will be able to locate the individuals in the organization who did this. If indeed it was done by ACORN and not some "freelancer" pretending to be working for ACORN. like a Republican looking to thwart new voter regs. It wouldn't surprise me at all as they say, the fewer people who vote always works out well for the Republicans. If they could get anything with ACORN written on it tossed out, in all those "battle ground" states wouldn't that be nice? As George WIll said "It shouldn't matter the quantity of votes a candidate gets but the quality of the votes they get." Maybe we could flash our W2s at the polling stations, and if we don't make enough we don't get to vote!
The US spends far more on weaponry and getting its tendrils into every country than would cost to give everyone healthcare. I would much rather my tax $ goes to welfare, fixing bridges and roads, levees, etc. than bombs and domestic & international espionage. As far as you helping Katrina victims - good for you - that's very admirable. A woman I work with hosted a family up here. Though I don't see a difference between one kind of help and another. When someone needs help they don't care how they get it or where it comes from, so long as it comes.
BTW please tattoo this on your brain I'm no liberal - I'm a libertine. "No Gods, No Masters!"
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Redistribution of wealth come right out of the Old Testament, right from the Exodus experience. The richest ones were told to take care of the poorest so that no one would be without. But then again, their system of government was initially intended to be theocratic. It's a bit harder to compare apples to oranges, when humans are in control.
There was a point in my life, in my mid-20's when I was out of work, during a recession, and my wife and I went downtown to get help with the heating bill. The caseworker looked at what we had and said, "excuse me... be right back". She conferred with a co-worker and concluded that we could also get public assistance, food stamps, and Medicaid. We were flabbergasted... and graciously accepted the help. And help it did. I had to go out and look for jobs and document them to justify continuance in the program. This was both embarrassing and a godsend at the same time. Eventually, I got a job again.. cleaning fishtanks, local deliveries, and packing fish orders - for $4.50 / hr. That was the best I could do for that time period. Nobody was hiring Environmental Science majors with only a B.A. And apparently, nobody was hiring Education majors for anything more than part time tutoring positions (wife), at that time. College degrees at the B.A. / B.S. level is a joke, for a lot of science and social science majors. You get paid a lousy dollar more an hour in jobs in that field than working as uneducated Home Depot cashier! We're all asking each other why we went to college! And most of us have student loan debt to deal with!
We don't have a theocratic society. We have a human-run society. Is it any wonder why we fail so miserably? We are all greedy and selfish. It doesn't matter if we are rich or poor. Human hearts are the same. Maybe if we actually had a theocratic government, we'd get it right and the poorest won't be without their needs (not wants).
Someone brought out that our founding fathers weren't Christians. Apparently, they weren't. They were no doubt religious people, but mostly Christian in name only (nominal christians) Suppsoedly, many were what were called deists. At best, they had watered down Christianity for their utopian societal ideals for this country.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Outsiders, you assume too much. You tell me "not to inject [my] progressive or European ideals that love to cling to." As someone raised in a conservatiove family & Protestant church in conservative areas of the country, it's been a long, slow journey to my current "liberal" self. If I were one to cling to something, I'd be voting Republican. I'm old enough and was conservative enough to have voted Libertarian in 1980 and, after a little moderation with age, for Reagan in 1984. By then, I was surrounded by liberal New England grad students, so am familiar with ideology battles from different sides.
You said my ideals are European, but European is a pretty inadequate adjective. Their recent political spectrum, after all, has managed to include Hitler and Lenin and everything in between and out on various tangents. Since you bring it up, I'll say that I'm drawn to pragmatism or fallibilism. We should try to reason out what is right, but we might learn we were wrong and we should be prepared to adjust accordingly. I tell people that my core philosophy is that we have to muddle our way through difficult problems. Ideology can get in the way.
You also said, "It's the same history rewriting BS, where people like [me] like to omit that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals." I don't agree that mysticism and freemasonry played as big a role in the founding of the country as Swords said but, like Jim said, Deism certainly did. The heir to Deism in the US is the Unitarian church and that runs counter to what most people have in mind when they talk about Judeo-Christian Ideals these days. Don't forget what Jefferson did with a bible.
I sometimes think I'm a Deist, since it follows the path of human reason, not hocus-pocus. Deism isn't watered down Christianity; it just doesn't put any stock in supernatural events or revelations or so on. Not to make light of it, but it basically says God established the rules (laws of thermodynamics, etc.) and lets the universe develop and run itself, without interceding. It's up to people to decide how to behave through their ability to think, not through blind adherence to a supposedly divine book. The major reason I'm so threatened by Theocracy is that it's based on something other than reason.
By the way, every campaign attracts its share of crackpots and some criminals plus others whose only ambition is to enrich themselves. Don't get obsessed with another candidate's hangers-on unless you're willing to devote equal attention to your own candidate's. In fact, it's wise to pay closer attention to those attaching themselves to your candidate. That's what drove me from Libertarianism after the 1980 election, because I realized I was being conned.
You said my ideals are European, but European is a pretty inadequate adjective. Their recent political spectrum, after all, has managed to include Hitler and Lenin and everything in between and out on various tangents. Since you bring it up, I'll say that I'm drawn to pragmatism or fallibilism. We should try to reason out what is right, but we might learn we were wrong and we should be prepared to adjust accordingly. I tell people that my core philosophy is that we have to muddle our way through difficult problems. Ideology can get in the way.
You also said, "It's the same history rewriting BS, where people like [me] like to omit that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals." I don't agree that mysticism and freemasonry played as big a role in the founding of the country as Swords said but, like Jim said, Deism certainly did. The heir to Deism in the US is the Unitarian church and that runs counter to what most people have in mind when they talk about Judeo-Christian Ideals these days. Don't forget what Jefferson did with a bible.
I sometimes think I'm a Deist, since it follows the path of human reason, not hocus-pocus. Deism isn't watered down Christianity; it just doesn't put any stock in supernatural events or revelations or so on. Not to make light of it, but it basically says God established the rules (laws of thermodynamics, etc.) and lets the universe develop and run itself, without interceding. It's up to people to decide how to behave through their ability to think, not through blind adherence to a supposedly divine book. The major reason I'm so threatened by Theocracy is that it's based on something other than reason.
By the way, every campaign attracts its share of crackpots and some criminals plus others whose only ambition is to enrich themselves. Don't get obsessed with another candidate's hangers-on unless you're willing to devote equal attention to your own candidate's. In fact, it's wise to pay closer attention to those attaching themselves to your candidate. That's what drove me from Libertarianism after the 1980 election, because I realized I was being conned.
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
I don't feel that I'm entitled to anything but what I take at the end of the day. But the fact is that I could take a lot more than what you'd say I deserve. I have the know-how to clean out several people's bank accounts with just a few hours' work, and if I really wanted to devote myself to it I could run a phishing scam and do some real redistribution of wealth. The only thing that really stops me is the threat of punishment and my goodwill towards others. If you left redistribution of wealth up to me, I'd come up with a solution you almost certainly wouldn't like - that's why it's so important not to drive the masses to doing it themselves. (Ever read about a little skirmish called the American revolutionary war?) All I want the government to do is
A) stop smearing the American name internationally (it makes my life harder)
B) stop allowing the rich disproportionate representation (unconstitutional + leads to A above)
C) work to ensure the well-being (health, employability, safety) of American citizens and immigrants (see The New Colossus)
I have a particularly unusual disease for which there are no cures. There is one effective drug treatment, a patented drug that was only recently deregulated beyond military applications. My perscriptions cost approximately $600 a month - more than 75% of my income - and without it I am rapidly becoming unemployable. The manufacturing cost of my medication is dramatically less than this - some sources I've seen say it's about $150 to manufacture a kilogram (my dosage is 400mg/day, this works out to about 5¢ manufacturing cost for something for which I pay $20 - I believe that's a 40000% markup.) Is that what America is about; exploiting the sick with exclusivity and patents? The only hand-out I want - if you could even call it that - is to pay a fair price for the medication I need to work a full day like everybody else.
You helped out for a week after Katrina? I'm thoroughly unimpressed. In highschool I volunteered at soup kitchens weekly, taught community classes about invasive species at the local park, and devoted a major portion of my remaining free time to working as a student representative on my school board. I helped net a lot of money for my school and other schools in my district, as well as fix a lot of problems with the way the district did things. Most of those changes weren't implemented until my senior year or after I graduated - the only good I've see from them are the benefits they've brought to a town I don't even live in anymore (and that's 100% OK with me.) And those are just the 100% charitable things that I did on a regular basis - I was also working two jobs at the time so I could buy school clothes and most of my meals, as my mom had been laid off. I could write a page-long list of extracurriculars I did in highschool that also benefited my community. It didn't take a disaster and guilt trips from the 700 Club to get me to get off my butt and lend a hand - that's just who I am.
As for "new European ideals" or whatever, I think you're full of it. If there's a distinction, clearly elaborate it - don't hide behind nebulous buzzwords that can be conveniently redefined as you lose the argument. If you can't see the contradiction and ambiguity in the statement I replied to, then you shouldn't even be arguing this issue. Have you ever read 1984?
~Joe
I need to make it clear Freemasonry isn't a "religion", but a school of philosophical inquiry dedicated to the study of religions & mysticism. Hence the Founding Fathers did not actively promote any one religious doctrine over another. Deism certainly played a part in the founding fathers views as much as masonry did. I guess I like to be sure and mention the Freemasons cos mention of them often sets off the fundamentalists who think they're "devil worshipers" out to take over the world. And "none of the sainted Founding Fathers would have anything to do with people like that." (as I've been told by Fundamentalists despite all evidence to the contrary) 
A quote I like from John Adams is: "Ideology has too many letters, it should be shortened to just idiocy."
I do fear a Theocratic government, of any sort, as I think many people do. These sorts of systems rarely remain benevolent for long. Take a peek at our "enemy" Mahometan Nations over in the middle east, or Israel for that matter. This is what happens when a religion is allowed ultimate power. The US would become the same only run by "Crazy Christians" instead of "Crazy Muslims" and "Crazy Jews". I will do anything I can to stop a move towards any sort of a Theocracy in this country, if it eventually turns that way, I'll still have the option of emigration to one of those evil European nations I love so much.
A quote I like from John Adams is: "Ideology has too many letters, it should be shortened to just idiocy."
I do fear a Theocratic government, of any sort, as I think many people do. These sorts of systems rarely remain benevolent for long. Take a peek at our "enemy" Mahometan Nations over in the middle east, or Israel for that matter. This is what happens when a religion is allowed ultimate power. The US would become the same only run by "Crazy Christians" instead of "Crazy Muslims" and "Crazy Jews". I will do anything I can to stop a move towards any sort of a Theocracy in this country, if it eventually turns that way, I'll still have the option of emigration to one of those evil European nations I love so much.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Two of you have expressed fear of Theocracy. Essentially, a government such that humans depend upon God, is scary to the human race. God set up the Children of Israel with Theocracy and the people, by and large, rejected it. They preferred worshipping idols and anything else the surrounding nations came up with. The whole book of Judges is a euphemism for what could go wrong when people turn away from God and put their trust in either another human being or samething manufactured by humans. Read for yourelves; everytime the people, collectively speaking, turned to anything than God, their morality suffered and they ended up in subjugation to other nations. Then God would raise up a leader who actually had faith in Him to deliver them out of the hands of their oppressors. And when he or she died the people went back to rejecting God, perpetuating the same pattern of deplorable morality and oppression. So, logically, why should we be afraid to depend upon God and rush to depend upon ourselves? Are we any different or better than our ancestors?
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
I know what you're saying. I used to be an atheist. I used to think that the Bible was garbage and religion (all of it) was our species' pathetic way of trying to explain what's going on... and that people who believed in any kind of deity was weak and needed a crutch. Furthermore, I wanted proof of things. Long story short... I never got proof that couldn't be rationalize away. What I did get was enough evidence for me to put my faith / confidence in. I'll never get definitive proof, nor will I ever convince another. It all requires an intentional choice (but not a blind one).
One further biblical example: When King David did something apparently stupid (counting the fighting men), god gave him three choices for punishment. Two of them involved punishment by other humans. One was by God. He opted for the one where God would be the direct agent. He said that he'd rather fall into the hands of the living God rather than into the hands of men. Such was his faith, in spite of the impending punishment.
Just because someone is not a Christian doesn't automatically make them an atheist. They may be atheist in regards to your particular religion, just as I imagine that being a Christian you're an atheist in regards to Zeus, Thor or Xochipilli. You may giggle but these are all gods who were and still are worshiped by some people just as serious as you are about Jehovah. I consider myself agnostic in regards to any particular sort of higher entity. I've come to the conclusion that all god fantasies (by this I mean: what he looks like, what he says, what he wants, that he is even a "he" or a human, etc) are constructs designed by man since they came from the mind of the man who proclaimed them and are simply a result of his being conscious of his conscious existence, which sometimes in the right frame of mind does seem like an otherworldly presence. Regardless of that, I believe that if there were indeed "one true god" there would only be one god concept in all people from the beginning of time until today. I've read far too much world history, philosophy and "sacred" texts to believe there is any one true path to "god", government or way of thinking about the world. I don't recall who said it but another quote I like is: "Certainty belongs to the man who only owns one book." What this indicates is that if you read numerous books by various authors, you are almost forced to begin thinking more pragmatically and thus breaking out of your imprinted and conditioned reality-tunnel (worldview) of your parents, teachers, mentors, etc. You did change by moving from conservative to democrat, why stop there when there is a whole universe out there to explore my good man! A day spent without reading, learning or doing something new is a wasted day in my eyes.
As far as a Theocracy goes anyone (government or religious leader) who is telling you they're in daily two way contact with god is someone to keep a trained eye on. I surely do not want that kind of person in charge of my life or the lives of my countrymen for that matter. Freedom of Religion and from religion is a personal choice and guaranteed to us by the Constitution. If you read some of the actual historical accounts of governments run by religions, not just biblical material, you will see that things are not great for everyone. Especially the non-believers of the government religion. The medieval European church-states were no less "crazy" than the middle east is now, in many ways the European church-states were far worse than the middle east is now. The notions of a family-like religiously run government where everybody worships the same and truly loves one another is nice but are Utopian and unattainable. Just like a purely Capitalist or purely Communist state, these ideologies simply do not work for all citizens when they attempt to live up to the ideals. Hence the combination of philosophies and relaxing of the ideological structure to achieve relatively stable and workable states such as the US, Canada, most of Europe and the Scandinavians have. There's those evil European ideas cropping up again
Let's take "real" Communism for example since it's all the rage (literally in some of this post I guess). In Marx's ideal, several weeks after the revolution the state is supposed to "wither away". Instead the Bolshevik Revolution became what Russia's government is/was/is again/whatever is going on over there now today. China is becoming quite successful with their blend of capitalist economics and "communist" ("proletariat") rule. I surely don't condone China's current regime (actually worse than W) but on the whole, they certainly are getting ahead on the "combined labor" fantasies of some of Marx's original ideas. Take a look at their advances in science, math and production over the US, Yet, neither of these "Communist" governments show any signs to any of us on the outside of their states "withering away" but if you ask a true communist and they will be able to prove that it is withering away - it's just taking a little longer than Marx anticipated! The point of this is that the lofty ideals no matter the mythology or methodology invoked can never live up to the objective reality, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
As far as a Theocracy goes anyone (government or religious leader) who is telling you they're in daily two way contact with god is someone to keep a trained eye on. I surely do not want that kind of person in charge of my life or the lives of my countrymen for that matter. Freedom of Religion and from religion is a personal choice and guaranteed to us by the Constitution. If you read some of the actual historical accounts of governments run by religions, not just biblical material, you will see that things are not great for everyone. Especially the non-believers of the government religion. The medieval European church-states were no less "crazy" than the middle east is now, in many ways the European church-states were far worse than the middle east is now. The notions of a family-like religiously run government where everybody worships the same and truly loves one another is nice but are Utopian and unattainable. Just like a purely Capitalist or purely Communist state, these ideologies simply do not work for all citizens when they attempt to live up to the ideals. Hence the combination of philosophies and relaxing of the ideological structure to achieve relatively stable and workable states such as the US, Canada, most of Europe and the Scandinavians have. There's those evil European ideas cropping up again
Let's take "real" Communism for example since it's all the rage (literally in some of this post I guess). In Marx's ideal, several weeks after the revolution the state is supposed to "wither away". Instead the Bolshevik Revolution became what Russia's government is/was/is again/whatever is going on over there now today. China is becoming quite successful with their blend of capitalist economics and "communist" ("proletariat") rule. I surely don't condone China's current regime (actually worse than W) but on the whole, they certainly are getting ahead on the "combined labor" fantasies of some of Marx's original ideas. Take a look at their advances in science, math and production over the US, Yet, neither of these "Communist" governments show any signs to any of us on the outside of their states "withering away" but if you ask a true communist and they will be able to prove that it is withering away - it's just taking a little longer than Marx anticipated! The point of this is that the lofty ideals no matter the mythology or methodology invoked can never live up to the objective reality, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
I never said that just because a person isn't a Christian that they are an atheist. I never even implied it. I just said that this is what I did. There are a whole mess of people in between.
As to Communism or Socialism or Marxism, my take on the matter is that Marx had a pretty good idea going. Unfortunately, human greed took over the ideal core of ensuring that no one would go without and the next thing ya know, "dictatorship of the Proletariat", meaning that the common people would be in control, instead of one or a few, became dictatorship over the Proletariot. The economic system fused with the political system and the those that could, stomped all over those that couldn't - again. Nothing's changed!
As to Communism or Socialism or Marxism, my take on the matter is that Marx had a pretty good idea going. Unfortunately, human greed took over the ideal core of ensuring that no one would go without and the next thing ya know, "dictatorship of the Proletariat", meaning that the common people would be in control, instead of one or a few, became dictatorship over the Proletariot. The economic system fused with the political system and the those that could, stomped all over those that couldn't - again. Nothing's changed!
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
I think the current fear of theocracy stems from the new surge of creationists. With the stacks upon stacks of scientific evidence placing the universe at xBillion years old and the earth at yMillion years old, people are adamant about the fact that the earth is about 6 thousand years old. In this thinking, we prevent scientific progress by denying its utility in things such as, say, deep space observation or the experiments at CERN. How can you condone research that would debunk the bible? Most hardcore creationists would cry foul at such things, the rest of us are pretty derned curious.
I dunno, I still sit on the fence on a lot of issues, I hate to bring this up in these debates, but I actually look at Metroid Prime 3 for a strange reference in the same way you'd draw reference to a Heinlein book, or something from Richard Bach. In there is a substory for the planet Bryyo Which collapsed in a war between the scientists who mastered technology to a singularity level, and those who had developed mysticism to a tangible 'magical' level(as a result from much of the scientific work). The end result was a planet-wide civil war between old traditions and the shedding of such through science. The ultimate moral was the idea that, for a species to survive through their own future, they require preservation of their spirituality while making use of technology.
I'm a hard-core anti-extremest. I no more advocate Richard Dawkins completely Godless outlook on things than I would creationist young-Earthers. I think they're both nuts. The quote by Einstein, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." is something I find to be fitting in these times. We're forging a war between those trying to advance civilization and the staunchly ignorant, no one will win this one, everyone will lose.
Me personally? Unless we pull the Theory of Everything from bosons in the LHC, it's safe to say that the reason for existence at all is odd in light of the fact that ultimate oblivion would seem to be a more natural state. I'd like to know the origin of all things as much as the next guy, but I don't think crusades are the answer. I also think that our perception of possibility and what it possible/what existence is capable of is juvenile at best. Neither Science nor religion is doing the possibilities justice, and as long as the two stand in each others' way, then it's the human race on the whole that will suffer until they can sort their differences.
EDIT: Wait, hold on, this is the ACORN thread, that's quite a derailment. I think ACORN got shammed by someone, And history would point towards the republican tactic of driving down the total sum number of voters. But hey, whatever, I'm In Texas, so I get to vote anyway cause they're fairly confident that TX is still a red state. Now if I lived in a battleground state, I'd be worried.
I dunno, I still sit on the fence on a lot of issues, I hate to bring this up in these debates, but I actually look at Metroid Prime 3 for a strange reference in the same way you'd draw reference to a Heinlein book, or something from Richard Bach. In there is a substory for the planet Bryyo Which collapsed in a war between the scientists who mastered technology to a singularity level, and those who had developed mysticism to a tangible 'magical' level(as a result from much of the scientific work). The end result was a planet-wide civil war between old traditions and the shedding of such through science. The ultimate moral was the idea that, for a species to survive through their own future, they require preservation of their spirituality while making use of technology.
I'm a hard-core anti-extremest. I no more advocate Richard Dawkins completely Godless outlook on things than I would creationist young-Earthers. I think they're both nuts. The quote by Einstein, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." is something I find to be fitting in these times. We're forging a war between those trying to advance civilization and the staunchly ignorant, no one will win this one, everyone will lose.
Me personally? Unless we pull the Theory of Everything from bosons in the LHC, it's safe to say that the reason for existence at all is odd in light of the fact that ultimate oblivion would seem to be a more natural state. I'd like to know the origin of all things as much as the next guy, but I don't think crusades are the answer. I also think that our perception of possibility and what it possible/what existence is capable of is juvenile at best. Neither Science nor religion is doing the possibilities justice, and as long as the two stand in each others' way, then it's the human race on the whole that will suffer until they can sort their differences.
EDIT: Wait, hold on, this is the ACORN thread, that's quite a derailment. I think ACORN got shammed by someone, And history would point towards the republican tactic of driving down the total sum number of voters. But hey, whatever, I'm In Texas, so I get to vote anyway cause they're fairly confident that TX is still a red state. Now if I lived in a battleground state, I'd be worried.
Jim, I misinterpreted your statement into the common reaction by many religious persons that if is someone isn't "my" religion they must be an atheist. It's such a common reaction around here (where I live) I tend to believe most people think that way. I try to work against thinking about how other people think but sometimes a fog gets in the way!
Indeed, just about any of the various political philosophies really are wonderful when read and taken at face value. Marx is no exception, there's nothing I'd like more than to see the state "wither away". For a time I thought Rousseau's "On the Social Contract" was one of the best things I ever read but when one applies critical theory and starts asking questions "what about..." then things start to look a bit grayer and not as black & white. Once some of these ideologies get into motion they can be quite hard if not impossible to stop or change by a new revolution when things go awry as they always have done in the past when specific ideologies are followed (and slowly corrupted). This is why I think the best course for any/all future governments, if we must have one, is to utilize the best ideas from each political philosophy. By "best" I mean any combination of those philosophies that will increase the liberty (freedom), pleasure (happiness) and comfort of existence (standard of living) for all citizens is worth pursuing.
Hey Botanica, do you know of the religion begun by Tim Zell based on Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", the Church of all Worlds? I've got a bumper sticker of theirs, it's an answer to the Campus Crusade for Christ "I found it!" stickers, it says "Thou art it!" I've also got a Cthulu Cult sticker which says "It found me!"
Indeed, just about any of the various political philosophies really are wonderful when read and taken at face value. Marx is no exception, there's nothing I'd like more than to see the state "wither away". For a time I thought Rousseau's "On the Social Contract" was one of the best things I ever read but when one applies critical theory and starts asking questions "what about..." then things start to look a bit grayer and not as black & white. Once some of these ideologies get into motion they can be quite hard if not impossible to stop or change by a new revolution when things go awry as they always have done in the past when specific ideologies are followed (and slowly corrupted). This is why I think the best course for any/all future governments, if we must have one, is to utilize the best ideas from each political philosophy. By "best" I mean any combination of those philosophies that will increase the liberty (freedom), pleasure (happiness) and comfort of existence (standard of living) for all citizens is worth pursuing.
Hey Botanica, do you know of the religion begun by Tim Zell based on Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", the Church of all Worlds? I've got a bumper sticker of theirs, it's an answer to the Campus Crusade for Christ "I found it!" stickers, it says "Thou art it!" I've also got a Cthulu Cult sticker which says "It found me!"
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
ACORN fraud has reached my town:
http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox...ale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
Your town could be next!
http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox...ale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
Your town could be next!
I notice how that article ends:
"Despite concerns about voter fraud, those who've taken a close look say it's extremely rare.
A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that out of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were just four fraudulent ballots."
I still don't discount my own theory that I mentioned earlier, that it was some "freelancer" trying to get any/all ACORN voter registrations thrown out. Considering how they are seen and called "communist" by the conservatives. Which shows you what little they actually "know" about communism! I just can't help but laugh at all of this political insanity season. I worked with a guy for a couple years who seemed to think he was working for good ol' Joe McCarthy to root out the subversive Reds. He was always calling this and that "communist" if he didn't like it. He even told me one day how the words "ecology" and "wetlands" were made up by communist lesbian psychologists! lol! But I'm getting off message and having fun again.
According to that article, the person trying to get people to re-register didn't even know how the ACORN employees are paid... It's odd to me how all these conservatives in battle ground states are suing for investigations into voter registration fraud because they are so positive that there are fraudulent ballots mixed in. Nobody's answered how they know there are fraudulent ballots mixed in... I saw one republican on TV saying that "since there were no fraudulent ballots turned in, that proves they weren't checking so we are suing the state election board."
It all seems just too circumstantial to me, in my eyes it's still an attempt to disenfranchise the new but mainly the lower class voters. Which has always been a cornerstone of Burke's form of Conservativism and Smith's vision of Capitalism, the poor are merely labor pawns of the "holy economy". Only imagined little better than slaves of the system because in these philosophies the masters have no need to feed them and see them merely as tools of the trade. Just so you don't boil over like a tea kettle again, this is not alluding to black slaves but an outlook upon all the lower or "working" classes in these two classical political ideologies.
"Despite concerns about voter fraud, those who've taken a close look say it's extremely rare.
A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that out of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were just four fraudulent ballots."
I still don't discount my own theory that I mentioned earlier, that it was some "freelancer" trying to get any/all ACORN voter registrations thrown out. Considering how they are seen and called "communist" by the conservatives. Which shows you what little they actually "know" about communism! I just can't help but laugh at all of this political insanity season. I worked with a guy for a couple years who seemed to think he was working for good ol' Joe McCarthy to root out the subversive Reds. He was always calling this and that "communist" if he didn't like it. He even told me one day how the words "ecology" and "wetlands" were made up by communist lesbian psychologists! lol! But I'm getting off message and having fun again.
According to that article, the person trying to get people to re-register didn't even know how the ACORN employees are paid... It's odd to me how all these conservatives in battle ground states are suing for investigations into voter registration fraud because they are so positive that there are fraudulent ballots mixed in. Nobody's answered how they know there are fraudulent ballots mixed in... I saw one republican on TV saying that "since there were no fraudulent ballots turned in, that proves they weren't checking so we are suing the state election board."
It all seems just too circumstantial to me, in my eyes it's still an attempt to disenfranchise the new but mainly the lower class voters. Which has always been a cornerstone of Burke's form of Conservativism and Smith's vision of Capitalism, the poor are merely labor pawns of the "holy economy". Only imagined little better than slaves of the system because in these philosophies the masters have no need to feed them and see them merely as tools of the trade. Just so you don't boil over like a tea kettle again, this is not alluding to black slaves but an outlook upon all the lower or "working" classes in these two classical political ideologies.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Josh: No harm, no foul! You show great respect for me and my views, however different they may be. That's a lot better than I did as a freshman in college when the my future Christian brethren were sharing the gospel with me!
Botanicadenta: The anti-God-in-control-of-my-life thing was there from the beginning. Also, not every "Born Again" Christian thinks that God did His thing for us in the year 4004 BC, with 6 consecutive 24 hour periods. I certainly don't. My wife doesn't. Not that He couldn't have. It's just that things don't necessarily have to be translated as such, nor does He have to be restricted. Would it be any less His doings if things took trillions of years? That's what it all comes down to: Did He do it or was it "random chance"? Does it matter how long or what method?
Botanicadenta: The anti-God-in-control-of-my-life thing was there from the beginning. Also, not every "Born Again" Christian thinks that God did His thing for us in the year 4004 BC, with 6 consecutive 24 hour periods. I certainly don't. My wife doesn't. Not that He couldn't have. It's just that things don't necessarily have to be translated as such, nor does He have to be restricted. Would it be any less His doings if things took trillions of years? That's what it all comes down to: Did He do it or was it "random chance"? Does it matter how long or what method?
